And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

Spiritual death is separation from God

we get it from the story, God say if you eat that fruit you will die, physically Adam and Eve still live for hundreds years, so we conclude, it was spiritually die or separation from the source of life.
i accept death is death, the problem is I don’t believe in your definition of death as cease to exist.

the biblical definition of death, or second death is being torment day and night
Rev 14
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

"Those who rebelled against me"


Mark 9

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is preferable for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than to
have two eyes and be cast into Gehenna, 48 where the devouring worm never dies and the fire is never quenched.

Jesus is quoting Isaiah

Isaiah 66
And as they go out,
they will see the corpses
of those who rebelled against me.
For their worm will never die,
nor will their fire be quenched,
and they will be abhorrent to all humanity

6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

The Sodomites are reserved for future judgment. Their judgement did not end with their cities.

No, you will go down to Hades.a For if the miracles that were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until today. 24But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.

So taking all of the scriptures on the subject we know that the wicked sodomites as well as the Edomites who vexed Israel are reserved in hell and will be cast into the Lake of Fire and suffer ETERNAL FIRE and VENGEANCE.

The scriptures are clear about it and teach us that God is faithful to reserve these wicked people in judgment to suffer eternal fire in the Lake of Fire. Their final judgment is still future. But it will be eternal. ETERNAL FIRE.

Yes the scripture means exactly what it means.

Eternal fire for the Sodomites is real. And it applies to those who think they can get away with being a Sodomite today as well.

The key point you don’t seem to be grasping, because it doesn’t help you to address it, is that Sodom and Gomorrah were reduced to ashes as an example of what will happen to ungodly people. As you’re well aware of, it’s rare that an ungodly person dies a physical death where they are reduced to ashes on Earth.

When the Bible says the wicked will be reduced to mere ashes, it means it’s talking about destroying them with fire. That’s what the second death is. And they will not live forever in any sense in hell.

There’s one verse in the Bible that says three persons are tormented and it’s in Revelation 20:10. It’s not sound doctrine to pick a one-off verse that isn’t repeated again in the Bible, build an entire theology around it, then say it applies to all unsaved when the verse itself doesn’t claim that.

We should understand Revelation 20:10 from a different perspective:

1. It’s specific about who exactly it applies to.
2. It’s the only example of eternal torment in the Bible.
3. It doesn’t represent the Bible’s description of what happens to the unrighteous.
4. It’s possibly it literally forever given forever is not always forever in the Bible.

The Bible repeatedly says the fate of the wicked is death or destruction. Even John 3:16 confirms. It’s sounds to apply death to all of the unsaved. Revelation 20:10 doesn’t apply to anyone unless they happen to be 1 of 3 persons.

There’s one verse in the Bible that says three persons are tormented and it’s in Revelation 20:10. It’s not sound doctrine to pick a one-off verse that isn’t repeated again in the Bible, build an entire theology around it, then say it applies to all unsaved when the verse itself doesn’t claim that.

We should understand Revelation 20:10 from a different perspective:

1. It’s specific about who exactly it applies to.
2. It’s the only example of eternal torment in the Bible.
3. It doesn’t represent the Bible’s description of what happens to the unrighteous.
4. It’s possibly it literally forever given forever is not always forever in the Bible.

The Bible repeatedly says the fate of the wicked is death or destruction. Even John 3:16 confirms. It’s sounds to apply death to all of the unsaved. Revelation 20:10 doesn’t apply to anyone unless they happen to be 1 of 3 persons.

Read it again. 2 Peter and Jude are talking about the same thing.

For if God didn’t sparea the angels who sinned but cast them into hella b and delivered them in chainsB of utter darkness to be kept for judgment;c 5and if he didn’t spare the ancient world, but protected Noah,a a preacher of righteousness, and seven others,a b when he brought the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6and if he reduced the cities of Sodom and Gomorraha to ashes and condemned them to extinction,A making them an example of what is coming to the ungodly;B b 7and if he rescued righteous Lot,a distressed by the depraved behavior of the immoral 8(for as that righteous man lived among them day by day, his righteous soul was tormented by the lawless deeds he saw and hearda) —  the 9then the Lord knows how to rescuea the godly from trials and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,b

Above all, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last daysa scoffing and following their own evil desires, 4saying, “Where is his ‘coming’ that he promised?a Ever since our ancestors fell asleep,b all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.” 5They deliberately overlook this: By the word of Goda the heavens came into being long ago and the earth was brought about from water and through water.b 6Through these the world of that time perished when it was flooded.a 7By the same word,a the present heavens and earth are stored up for fire, being kept for the day of judgmentb and destruction of the ungodly.

Dear friends, don’t overlook this one fact: With the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.a 9The Lord does not delay his promise,a as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting anyb to perishc but all to come to repentance.d

10But the day of the Lorda will come like a thief;a b on that day the heavens will pass awayc with a loud noise, the elements will burn and be dissolved,d and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed.B C 11Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, it is clear what sort of people you should be in holy conduct and godliness 12as you wait for the day of God and hasten its coming.a a Because of that day, the heavens will be dissolved with fire and the elements will melt with heat. 13But based on his promise, we wait for new heavens and a new earth,a where righteousness dwells.b

5Now I want to remind you, although you came to know all these things once and for all, that JesusA saved a people out of Egypt and later destroyed those who did not believe;a 6and the angelsa who did not keep their own position but abandoned their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deep darkness for the judgment on the great day. 7Likewise, Sodom and Gomorraha and the surrounding towns committed sexual immorality and perversions,A and serve as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.b

The wicked dead are reserved in hell waiting for the judgment of eternal fire in the Lake of Fire.

1 rev 20 do not say only but the rest of unsaved cease to exist
2 Matt 25:46 say eternal punishment for goat or unsaved

In a sense we are finally getting somewhere. Your willingness to concede that eternal torment is the lot of the devil, false prophet and beast.

Since the False prophet and beast are the first occupants of the Lake of Fire, ...

Rev 19:20But the beast was taken prisoner, and along with it the false prophet, who had performed the signs in its presence. He deceived those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image with these signs.a Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Then please notice that it does not say in Rev 19:20 That they are in torment day and night.

And yet in Rev 20 when the devil is thrown in with them 1000 years later it is said....

Then fire came down from heavenA and consumed them.b 10The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are,a and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.b

Now it is the normal consensus that the beast and false prophet were suffering torment day and night for a thousand years while the devil was in the abyss.

We know that because of what is said in Rev 20 is further information about the effect of being thrown into the Lake of Fire upon these first three occupants.

Now that you are conceding to that it is fairly simple to demonstrate that the others who are cast into the Lake of Fire experience the same effects of these first occupants. Without needing to restate "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever"

If you attempt to invent a false teaching that the false prophet and beast were in the Lake of fire for a thousand years without being in torment day and night, and that their torment in the same lake of fire does not begin until the devil is thrown in, everyone will know you are willing to say anything to support a bad interpretation.

If you concede that they were in torment day and night for a thousand years, you also are conceding that anyone who is thrown into the Lake of Fire after these first three also are in torment day and night forever and ever because this is the effect of being in the Lake of Fire.

Even if the statement is not repeated each time the Lake of Fire is mentioned, since torment day and night was not mentioned when the beast and false prophet were first thrown in but we all know that was the result when it is mentioned in Rev 20 after the devil joins them.

So it is when anyone else joins them. The statement "they will be tormented day and night forever" does not need to be repeated each time. To insist that it does is a clear indication that you have lost this debate and are resorting to belligerence.

How many times have we heard 'those who are not saved' will suffer ETERNAL TORMENT in the lake of fire? Would you believe that is NOT WRITTEN anywhere? I remember the first time I found out, I WAS angry, upset, incensed. Even people who know NOTHING else, seem to all know that. I was about to learn yet ANOTHER lesson...that 'meat' is so hard to chew sometimes especially when all you know is milk.


Rev 20:10 tells us

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hopefully all can agree what we read here is

The Devil has been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

the lake of fire and brimstone is where the false prophet and the beast were cast.

AND THE DEVIL shall be tormented forever,


Do we know anything else from what is written here? I don't, do you?


When we began to learn the words of God we learned,

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

the wicked PERISH, by being consumed, turned into smoke, ascend up and away

No mention of eternal suffering in the lake of fire.

SO WHERE did it come from?

It didn't come from here
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

IN the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels, WOULD REQUIRE THEY BE WATCHED FOREVER, if indeed they were to NOT BE CONSUMED but again

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


WE know from the PSALM that the wicked perish BY BEING consumed into smoke. Here AGAIN, we are told THE SMOKE of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Is there ANY CONSCIOUSNESS IN SMOKE? No.


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


So we see SPECIFICALLY who 'for ever and ever, day and night' is referring to. If we go past this and APPLY it to souls, IS THAT GODS TRUTH or our own?

I believe it would be our own because when you combine that information with

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.



Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


I can't find a single verse that states souls themselves will be tormented, just the smoke left from the consuming of them, which ascends up forever.

Have I missed any important SCRIPTURES, anything WRITTEN that changes any of this THAT isn't just conjecture or assumption?

There isn’t a scenario anywhere in the Bible where all of the unsaved are tormented forever.

Uh no I’m not conceding anything. I think I made a typo in one of my points that possibly gave that impression.

Point number 4 should read: It’s possible it’s literally not forever given forever is not always forever in the Bible.

My changing position on this isn’t a possibility. I’ll take this to my grave with me. I know what’s written in the Bible and I won’t believe otherwise.

There isn’t a scenario anywhere in the Bible where all of the unsaved are tormented forever.

While Revelation 20:10 says 3 persons are tormented day and night forever, using Isaiah 34 and Jude, I demonstrated that forever doesn’t always mean forever. There’s enough reasonable doubt that Revelation 20:10 isn’t literal.

You have the cart in front of the horse. You’re adding to what Revelation 20:10 says by applying it to anyone other than 3 persons.

Eternal punishment is death. Since you can’t cite a verse that says all of the unsaved have eternal conscious torment then it’s your assumptions, a flawed one, that they are being tormented.

This sounds like a catholic teaching. Is it in their bible mebbe? I think buddhists believe in eternal torment. Perhaps you are debating buddhists? At any rate, with all this patience and endurance, I think you must be a saint.

i think you have the card in front of the horse

eternal punishment not death

let me repeat to post definition of punishment by oxford

the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.
"crime demands just punishment"



infliction, mean punishment recipient must fell pain

eternal punishment >eternal pain

how you punish a cease exist person?

Is Eternal life forever and ever?

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

The word is the same. The eternity involved in eternal life is the same word used for the eternity involved in the eternal punishment.
Do a Lexical Syntactical analysis of this sentence in the Greek and you will discover that it is impossible to change the eternal nature of the punishment intended by the author as he used the same Greek as the eternal nature of the eternal life.

And this analysis will also prove that the word punishment here requires that the person be aware and experience it.

As far as I know , Buddhists don’t believe in a creator God or and eternal and everlasting soul. Buddhists don’t even necessarily believe in God, but it’s possible to be a Buddhist and subscribe to a different faith. In Vietnam there are Buddhist Christians.

I think as a general rule, modern Catholics believe in eternal torment of the soul but in the early church it wasn’t unanimous. They also believe in soul immortality. There are probably exceptions.

I reject unconditional immortality seeing as Christ said only those who are saved will have eternal life. I also reject eternal torment in hell for all of the unsaved because the Bible doesn’t say that.

I’m a Christian. I don’t belong to a denomination. Nor do I often listen to any preachers or read Bible commentaries. I just belong to God and read the Bible.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The same word for everlasting used in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is the same word used in Matthew 25:46.

They’re the same. Eternal is a singular adjective and punished is a singular noun in both verses.

The punishment is destruction. No eternal awareness is required for the punishment to have everlasting effect. The punishment is eternal because it’s permanent and it doesn’t change.

What you’re imagining is someone being burned while they never die, perish, or get destroyed. That would be eternal punishing. You’re also assuming the soul doesn’t die. Matthew 10:28 puts it quite plainly. There isn’t a way to create an eternal torment doctrine.

I’m sorry this is hard to accept, but the church has been deceived.l into believing eternal torment. I know that’s a tough pill to swallow because the atheists, JWs, and others believe that too. Now people have to worry about being identified with the unbelievers and cultists, but the devil creates negative group associations to keep people in bondage.

It’s okay I don’t need the praise of people. My heart is right with God and I’ll have my reward.

The second death fits the definition of punishment you provided.

Revelation 2:11
11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

There you have it. The second death hurts. They’re punished with pain and then death. But you won’t accept that eh? You’re adding to the Bible by replacing death with eternal torment.

matt 25:46
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

This really explains everything.



You would benefit greatly by reading commentaries and learning from all that has been written on this topic over the past 500 years.