Dispensationalism...

Israel is God's elect nation to bring forth the promised seed of Christ. And because God chose them for this service, He loves them and made a covenant with them that he will bring to completion one day.

That is TOTALLY incorrect. As a chess-player you are making some very poor moves on this forum. Perhaps you are a novice in both chess and Bible knowledge. So take some time to go back and study what God says about His eternal relationship with the nation of Israel (which nation shall be redeemed and restored after the Second Coming of Christ).

God's wrath CANNOT come until His Children are removed.
The Lord uses patterns, models and similitudes in His Word as prophecy.

Hosea 12:10I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

This principle is used over and over in Scripture.
The Flood could not come until His elect were secure in the Ark, and HE shut the door, where they stayed until the indignation passed.


Sodom and Gomorrah could NOT be destroyed until righteous Lot was removed.
Genesis 19:22
22 Hurry, escape there. For I cannot do anything until you arrive there." Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.


Jericho was not destroyed until Rahab was removed.

So we see the Word teaching us that God will not pour out His wrath on the saved. We will NOT be here for the Great Tribulation. That doesn't mean we will not experience tribulations from men however.

God never said that we, His saints, are appointed to His wrath.

"But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him." ! Thess 5:8-10


The entire Scripture from Genesis to Revelation exposes the satanic lie of 'pre-trib rapture'.


"and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."
1 Thessalonians 1:10

"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words."
1 Thess 4:13-18

Pre-trib rapture calls the LORD Jesus Christ a liar and commits many lies against the words of God.
It is a wise move to repent from this evil practice.

The LORD Jesus says: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Matthew 24:29-31


Every person who speaks/prophesies/teaches a 'pre-trib rapture' is committing sin by lying whether intentionally or not.

This is quite the schizophrenic post.

On the one hand you rightly insist that we are not appointed to God's wrath, and on the other, you say we will be here during the Great Tribulation, which is ALL about God pouring out His wrath.

Which is it?

God's word says Abraham was from the land of Ur. You tell me he is from the tribe of Juda , Guess who i believe !

Answer: When you place your trust in 'pre-trib rapture' then the Truth will seem odd to you, just as it did to many when the LORD walked this earth.

Are you unable to see the simple Truth that the Holy Spirit spoke thru the Prophets, Apostles and our LORD Jesus Christ???

TRUTH Challenge for my Brother in Christ = Find one OT Prophecy or actual example: whereby 'pre-tribulation rapture' takes place and is prophetic of His Body/the Church/the Bride of Christ/His Saints/the Elect.

Noah lived during the greatest tribulation the world had ever seen but was delivered from the wrath of God thru faith in preparing the Ark and then God shut the door once Noah and his family were safe inside.

Enoch, Noah, Daniel, Job, Elijah all lived and suffered during great tribulation and none were taken out of it but were kept by God and did not come under His wrath.

As my Post #264 clearly and perfectly confirms = "We are not appointed to God's wrath"
"and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come." - Amen

'Pre-tribulation rapture' never came out of the Mouth of God and cannot be found in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

Open up your heart to the Truth of HIS word and His love, in me, for you.

The Scripture makes a clear distinction between tribulation brought on by satan and God's wrath.

SEE, HEAR and BELIEVE the TRUTH =
"Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone, and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith, that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this.
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know. For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.
1 Thess 3:1-5

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.....Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you,"
Matthew ch24

"And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying:
“We must through much tribulation enter the kingdom of God.”
Acts 14:22


The TRUTH of His Word versus the error of 'pre-trib rapture' = you will decide and you will either reap the benefit or suffer great disappointment.

The LORD Jesus Christ never said for us to 'wait for pre-tribulation rapture'.

Peace to you today in Christ

No,it doesn't. God gave the full perimeters of the land in His Word and Israel has yet to live in the land with all that was promised to Abraham in the unconditional covenant God made with him and his seed.



Exactly, that's why Israel is the nation that was born in a day. The desert has bloomed again, just as was promised. God said He would bring them back from the lands he scattered them to their own land. That began in 48. And God will keep the promises He made.



No,it does not.

Umm.... Where was Enoch during the Flood?

Yes I'm completely familiar with this utterly incorrect and dangerous doctrine, which has helped foster the incredible persecution the Jews have endured over the past 2000 yrs.

Just to pick ONE of the myriad of problems with that view from your website:

20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

So the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD was worse than the Holocaust?
Worse than Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Worse than the 1931 Chinese flood that killed 4 million?
Worse than Mao Zedong or Stakin killing about 50 million apiece?

I mean I could go on and on....

NOR EVER SHALL BE!!

A pointed question.... When you tell your child something like "If you wash the car i will pay you 5 bucks "
Is there a condition evolved ?

Lev 26:39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Lev 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Dear Brother = where was Enoch before God took Him?

Dear Brother = the flood was God's Wrath = can you SEE the clear distinction = if not, remove the error of pre-trib rapture from your heart.

Dear Brother = where was Elijah before God 'raptured' him?

Dear Brother = where has the Body of Christ been and is now, before, His Second Coming? = Saints all over the world have been and still are suffering great tribulation, just as His word declares.

SEE HERE Brother =
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony,
and they did not love their lives to the death.
Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.” - Revelation ch12

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Revelation ch6

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have died, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep (suffer physical death) in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thess 4:13-18

Follow and place your complete trust in His Word = Christ and the Apostles do not twist scripture like today's Laodecian preachers.

When you do, concerning this, you will SEE, love God the more, and be delivered from religion and the spirit of error.

I guess you are referring to the "final wrath" since God has been pouring wrath on the wicked from the beginning of time (Gen. 6 for starters), and throughout the OT, either against rebellious Israel or the nations that came against them, depending on the context. All this because a covenant of law had been made between God and fallen man (man could not keep it).

The problem with your conjectures is that you derive your "end time" theology from faulty men who don't know how to read the bible according to its proper genre, its Hebrew thinking, and prophecies that were made in the NT which most dispensationalists have ignored or conveniently pushed them to the end of history or the so-called "Millennium."

Dispensationalists are in denial. 🤠

You asked for a clear example or model of the end times from the OT.

Enoch was RAPTURED BEFORE the tribulation.
Noah and family were preserved THROUGH the tribulation.
The unsaved World was judged and suffered God's wrath.

Same as in the end.

Saints are RAPTURED BEFORE the Great Tribulation. (NOT man's tribulations on the Saints)
A remnant that is not saved before, but during the GT will be preserved THROUGH the GT.
The unsaved World will be judged and suffer God's wrath.


There's your example

Dear Brother your mind coralled by the spirit of error and you are unable to SEE right now.
Humble yourself before the LORD and ask for Eyesight.
"I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see." - Revelation 3:18

Enoch lived during great tribulation and was taken BEFORE the wrath of God fell on the world = the Great Flood.

START HERE: Genesis to Revelation the LORD has said:

"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
John 16:33


i will donate $1,000 to 'Voice of the Martrys Ministry' if you can prove 'pre-trib rapture as you claim = from scripture alone.