Before Abraham was, I am

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,999
4,311
113
#21
I'm still confused! When God spoke to Moses, He said He was "The One" or "The Being". I don't know what else is to be made of that. "When Jesus said Before Abraham was I AM was telling the Pharisees He Christ and always existed." Whoa! How d'you get that from that verse?! Maybe it can be discerned from somewhere else in the Bible, but I can't see it from that verse. The point is: According to what is generally accepted as the genuine Greek Testament, God said ''I am the 'One' or 'Being'" - NOT "I AM". So I don't understand what relevance Jesus' response in the NT has, when He just seems to be saying He's lived since the time of Abraham. I don't see how "I AM relates
to God.
first Off, the Greek translation for "Eternal, existing one " That Abraham came to know God as was in Hebrew translation, not greek.

When Jesus said to the Jews, "I AM" they wanted to stone HIM BEcause the text says Jesus made Himself ONE with God =Face to face. That is where I got it from the very word of God. Jesus said to them that it is Most likely Hebrew of Aramaic
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,879
5,623
113
#22
It squares perfectly. They are one. Jesus was there at creation, and He will be seated upon the Judgement Throne at the end. Three in person, but one in spirit.

Luke 9:35
“And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.”

Philippians 2:6
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:”


>
the three ways that God has manifested himself to us

as the all Powerful creator and diety the father of creation

as mankind born of a woman

and as the Holy Spirit

it’s one person who has own himself three different ways because that’s how his plan works

we believe in God who created the heavens and earth

we believe God the creator became one of us because there was none of us worthy to make intercession and save us from our sin

and we believe the same God dwells in us through his spirit

the three manifestations of The one and only God

God the unknowable creator manifest in the ot

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The gospel when he himself became man when God became flesh

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:3, 10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And when God the same manifest himself in our hearts by his spirit

“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭

“If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:15-18, 20-21, 23-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

in order for us to understand the process of Gods plan he’s broken it into three parts or stages in each he appears a certain way in the law as a raging and unapproachable fire

in the gospel as a gentle and humble man of God

and in the epistles he has come to dwell
In us by his spirit the spirit of God , the spirit of his son , the Holy Spirit is one and God has own himself in three different ways we can understand and receive the spirit that makes us his children his own spirit the same that lives in Christ the son , the same he sent into the world at pentocost

we’re not being made to be the fathers but he’s shown our place in Christ as the children He showed us the example and the. Returned to his glory

“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The Bible tells us our when God created everything , how man corrupted themselves and fell into sin and death and how that seperated us from God and then it tells us Gods detailed plan to redeem us

each stage of Gods plan he manifests himself in a different way is my point he’s one but he slowly revealed himself hidden in the ot made known openly in the new and then he comes and lives in our mind and heart each part of the plan requires God to manifest himself just as he did

the spiritual father couldn’t come and bear sin , he first became a man so he could bear mans sin , it was required for this to happen for man to have any hope

and then it’s needed tbat we repent and receive the new born spirit that Christ sent To us who believe In Him

he’s making us to be the sons
 

montana123

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2021
849
286
63
#23
I've come in contact with many different denominations, trinitarian and unitarian, encountering many different doctrines and combinations of doctrines. Having this background, I'd like to bring up one aspect of this disagreement. One thing trinitarians often bring up is passage in the OT where Moses asked God who it is that is sending him.
God's answer is interesting. According to the (I think) usually regarded to be authentic Greek Septuagint, God says "I am the ("One" or "Being"). Tell them "The ("One" or "Being") has sent you, not "I am sending you".
How is this squared with Jesus' "I AM" statement in the NT?
I'd be interested in any opinions.
Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

God said that He is the only God and He does not know of any other God.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

God said that there was no God created before Him and there will be no God created after Him.

God has no beginning and there is no such thing as a created god for God means supreme being which a created god would not be a supreme being for he would be made from physical matter.

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Jesus will be from everlasting which means He will have no beginning which will be according to His deity.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

1 Timothy 6:14-16 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

No person has seen Jesus and no person will ever see Jesus according to His deity for He is an invisible Spirit but He has shown people a visible manifestation of Himself.

Jesus is God.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

There is only God, angels, and people, and Jesus is not an angel so for Him to exist before Abraham He has to be God.
 

Shepherd

Active member
May 11, 2022
247
81
28
#24
I've come in contact with many different denominations, trinitarian and unitarian, encountering many different doctrines and combinations of doctrines. Having this background, I'd like to bring up one aspect of this disagreement. One thing trinitarians often bring up is passage in the OT where Moses asked God who it is that is sending him.
God's answer is interesting. According to the (I think) usually regarded to be authentic Greek Septuagint, God says "I am the ("One" or "Being"). Tell them "The ("One" or "Being") has sent you, not "I am sending you".
How is this squared with Jesus' "I AM" statement in the NT?
I'd be interested in any opinions.
Because it conveys the fact that Jesus is the eternal one.
Not only is the "I Am" Jesus, but the statement is even more profound. Check out this verse..... "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones." (Isaiah 57:15). From the way I understand it, "eternity" basically means timeless and encompasses not only all of the future but all of the past as well. So, when Jesus told them "Before Abraham was, I Am", he was actually saying "I exist, preceding Abraham at this very instant." This ties completely with the encounter with Moses and the verse which says he "Inhabiteth eternity"
 

AndrewMorgan

Active member
Jul 10, 2022
375
81
28
#25
Because it conveys the fact that Jesus is the eternal one.
Not only is the "I Am" Jesus, but the statement is even more profound. Check out this verse..... "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones." (Isaiah 57:15). From the way I understand it, "eternity" basically means timeless and encompasses not only all of the future but all of the past as well. So, when Jesus told them "Before Abraham was, I Am", he was actually saying "I exist, preceding Abraham at this very instant." This ties completely with the encounter with Moses and the verse which says he "Inhabiteth eternity"

Sorry - I'm baffled by this! Where does this "I AM" business came from? I'm talking about the specific verse in the OT, where God is talking to Moses. Nowhere in this verse does it seem to me that God is making "I am" into anything specially to do with Him - rather - He's using the term in the same people usually use it. There MAY be elsewhere He's using the term in the special way, but I don't know of any. In light of this, I don't see what relevance anything in Jesus' response has to the OT.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
778
113
#26
I've come in contact with many different denominations, trinitarian and unitarian, encountering many different doctrines and combinations of doctrines. Having this background, I'd like to bring up one aspect of this disagreement. One thing trinitarians often bring up is passage in the OT where Moses asked God who it is that is sending him.
God's answer is interesting. According to the (I think) usually regarded to be authentic Greek Septuagint, God says "I am the ("One" or "Being"). Tell them "The ("One" or "Being") has sent you, not "I am sending you".
How is this squared with Jesus' "I AM" statement in the NT?
I'd be interested in any opinions.

You are asking about a question that Jesus asked His disciples, and He asks His disciples this same question throughout time. He asks you and me the same question.

Jesus Asked, “Who Do You Say That I AM?” Jesus asked His Disciples an important question, “Who do men say that I AM?”

So, who is Jesus? Let’s take a look at His life and begin with a plain fact. Throughout all history, it would be hard to find anyone whose life has had a greater impact on the world than Jesus’.

A famous author, an atheist named, H.G. Wells said, “I am not a believer, but as an historian, I must confess that this penniless preacher from Nazareth is easily the most dominant person in all history.”

Jesus’ impact on the world is amazing when we recall that he lived 2,000 years ago in a small town. We know almost nothing about His first 30 years on earth. He never traveled far from home as an adult, never held political office, never wrote a book, never invented something, never discovered anything, never led an army into battle, and He never amassed great wealth.

The three short years of His public ministry were spent in small villages. He avoided publicity and commanded His followers not to tell anyone of the miracles that they saw Him perform. He never did any of the things that are considered to be historic.

Indeed, He is remembered by eyewitnesses for being rejected by his own people, that He died naked, penniless, shamed, virtually alone, and in great agony. He appeared to be a spectacular failure.

So how is it then that Jesus has become the most influential person in the history of the world? Christians see Him as their Savior, other religions regard Him as a holy man. Nations, Cultures, even people of no Christian faith have been deeply influenced by Jesus and His teachings.

Albert Einstein wrote, I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene. He added, “No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus.”

So, what sets this man apart from the billions of others who have lived upon this earth? Jesus appears to be like some other religious figures, preaching love of neighbor and urging people to turn to God. But something separates Jesus from all the others.

Other religious leaders like Moses, Buddha, Mohammed, or Confucius had a message about God or about the right way of living. But the most they had to say about themselves was that they were prophets or wise teachers.

Unlike all these other religious figures Jesus made a far more radical claim. He claimed to be a more than a messenger from God, He claimed to be the actual Message, the Very Word of God. In short, His identity is the issue.

Jesus demanded the apostles make a decision and asked them, “Who do you say that I AM?”

Actually, the possible answers to this question are surprisingly limited.

Let’s look at some of the non-believer attempts to explain Jesus.

Many non-Christians see Jesus just as being a good man, a wise man, and a great teacher.

And yet, we miss the point entirely if we treat Jesus merely as a good and wise teacher, because Jesus made far greater claims. In fact, Jesus claimed, both directly and indirectly, to be God!

When Jesus claimed to forgive sins, He was making the claim that it was He was the One who was offended by men’s sins. He was criticized for forgiving sins, because only God can forgive sins. And his critics were right, Only God can forgive sins, and Jesus never disputed that.

Jesus claimed that before Abraham was, I AM. Understand what Jesus claimed here. Jesus claimed to be, “I AM”, and I AM is the Name by which God revealed Himself to Moses. Jesus is claiming to be the same eternal God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush. The religious leaders understood perfectly what He was saying and they picked up stones and attempted to kill Him for blasphemy. (John 8:58)

Jesus guided by word and example, forgiving, loving and caring for others. But far more than showing us the way, Jesus claimed that He is the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; and that no one can come to the Father but by Me.

When Jesus appeared to the Apostle Thomas, Thomas fell to the ground and worshiped Jesus praying to Him, My Lord and my God!” Being strict Jews, Jesus and the apostles worshiped only one God, but when Thomas fell down and worshiped Jesus as God, neither Jesus nor any of the other apostles corrected him. It is clear that none of Jesus disciples thought that Jesus was only a good and wise teacher.

Instead, Jesus accepted Thomas’ worship, acknowledging that He is the one God of Israel.

If Jesus’ claims of being God weren’t true, then He could not have been a wise man, a good man, or a great teacher. Instead He would have been an egomaniac, an evil and ignorant man who didn’t teach truth. But, if Jesus’ claims are true then He is certainly much more than a good and wise teacher.

Because Jesus taught that He is God and that we are not. He emphasized that He is from above and that we are from below, that we are sinners and that He is without sin, and that God is one. Jesus had a thoroughly Jewish concept of the God of Israel; and Jesus clearly stated a number of times, “I AM!”

One atheist, who converted to Christianity, was the great protestant thinker and writer, C.S. Lewis. He wrote, “Jesus claimed to be God, so there are only two possibilities, either He is God or He is not God.” There are no other possibilities.


He surmised, if Jesus is not God, then we are left with two options: He either knows that He is not God and is a liar, or he is a lunatic and mistakenly thinks that He is God.

If Jesus was a liar, His lies were about the most important things imaginable. For a man to lie about such claims to His friends and followers, He would have to been deeply evil.

Liars tell lies in the pursuit of some gain. So, if Jesus was a liar, for what purpose? What does Jesus gain as a result of His lies? Earthly power? No, when men try to crown Him, He runs away. Status? No, He only wins the admiration of unimportant people; prostitutes, tax collectors, fishermen, along with the undying hatred of powerful men bent on His destruction.

When He is on trial for His life, why would He lie when asked if He is the Christ, the Son of God? He didn’t hesitate. He answered, I AM, (Mark 14:62) thereby inviting crucifixion, the most horrific death known to man. No liar, bent on earthly gain would do this.

So, if Jesus is not God and not a liar, we are left with only one other alternative; He was mistakenly insane. The trouble with this thought is that there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that Jesus was insane. Study His interactions with His enemies or His warm conversations with His friends. No one ever thought that He was a deranged man, out of His wits.

So, if Jesus wasn’t a compulsive liar or insane, it begins to look as though there is difficulty in accounting for Jesus in any other way but the way that Peter did. When Jesus asked him, “Who do you say that I AM.” Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

And Jesus asks the same question to all people, throughout time, He asks the same question of you and me, “Who do you say that, I AM”


ONE FINAL THOUGHT

The Apostles were the people who knew Jesus best. And they believed His claims. They believed so much that they would go out into a world filled with wolves and spread Jesus’ Gospel. Except for John, all of them willingly gave up their lives in martyrdom for their Lord and God.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,769
113
#27
God's answer is interesting. According to the (I think) usually regarded to be authentic Greek Septuagint, God says "I am the ("One" or "Being"). Tell them "The ("One" or "Being") has sent you, not "I am sending you".
You should be aware that the Septuagint (LXX) is a corrupted Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.

In any event, the pre-incarnate Christ -- the eternal Word of God -- often appeared to men as "the Angel of the LORD", and when He did, men worshipped Him and saw Him as God. So when He appeared to Moses at the burning bush, the first thing that happened is that Moses was told to remove his shoes because where he was standing was holy ground. Then the Angel of the LORD identified Himself as (a) God, (b) the LORD, (c) I AM THAT I AM (d) I AM, (e) the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, (f) the God of your fathers, and (g) the LORD God of your fathers. All this meant that no man could deny that Jesus is God. Yet many do so today to their eternal ruin (damnation).
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#28
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

The Word was the one that was doing the talking, which is Jesus. He is the Son of God correct? In the beginning the Word was known as Yahweh or Jehovah. When the Word came in the flesh He took upon Himself His Fathers name which is Jesus. There was no Father and Son in the beginning it was only God.
"There was no Father and Son in the beginning it was only God."

Who is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?

Revelation 13:8
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#29
I've come in contact with many different denominations, trinitarian and unitarian, encountering many different doctrines and combinations of doctrines. Having this background, I'd like to bring up one aspect of this disagreement. One thing trinitarians often bring up is passage in the OT where Moses asked God who it is that is sending him.
God's answer is interesting. According to the (I think) usually regarded to be authentic Greek Septuagint, God says "I am the ("One" or "Being"). Tell them "The ("One" or "Being") has sent you, not "I am sending you".
How is this squared with Jesus' "I AM" statement in the NT?
I'd be interested in any opinions.
Isaiah 9:6
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
 

AndrewMorgan

Active member
Jul 10, 2022
375
81
28
#30
You should be aware that the Septuagint (LXX) is a corrupted Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.

In any event, the pre-incarnate Christ -- the eternal Word of God -- often appeared to men as "the Angel of the LORD", and when He did, men worshipped Him and saw Him as God. So when He appeared to Moses at the burning bush, the first thing that happened is that Moses was told to remove his shoes because where he was standing was holy ground. Then the Angel of the LORD identified Himself as (a) God, (b) the LORD, (c) I AM THAT I AM (d) I AM, (e) the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, (f) the God of your fathers, and (g) the LORD God of your fathers. All this meant that no man could deny that Jesus is God. Yet many do so today to their eternal ruin (damnation).
You should be aware that the Septuagint (LXX) is a corrupted Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.

In any event, the pre-incarnate Christ -- the eternal Word of God -- often appeared to men as "the Angel of the LORD", and when He did, men worshipped Him and saw Him as God. So when He appeared to Moses at the burning bush, the first thing that happened is that Moses was told to remove his shoes because where he was standing was holy ground. Then th0e Angel of the LORD identified Himself as (a) God, (b) the LORD, (c) I AM THAT I AM (d) I AM, (e)
You should be aware that the Septuagint (LXX) is a corrupted Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.

In any event, the pre-incarnate Christ -- the eternal Word of God -- often appeared to men as "the Angel of the LORD", and when He did, men worshipped Him and saw Him as God. So when He appeared to Moses at the burning bush, the first thing that happened is that Moses was told to remove his shoes because where he was standing was holy ground. Then the Angel of the LORD identified Himself as (a) God, (b) the LORD, (c) I AM THAT I AM (d) I AM, (e) the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, (f) the God of your fathers, and (g) the LORD God of your fathers. All this meant that no man could deny that Jesus is God. Yet many do so today to their eternal ruin (damnation).
You should be aware that the Septuagint (LXX) is a corrupted Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.




In any event, the pre-incarnate Christ -- the eternal Word of God -- often appeared to men as "the Angel of the LORD", and when He did, men worshipped Him and saw Him as God. So when He appeared to Moses at the burning bush, the first thing that happened is that Moses was told to remove his shoes because where he was standing was holy ground. Then the Angel of the LORD identified Himself as (a) God, (b) the LORD, (c) I AM THAT I AM (d) I AM, (e) the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, (f) the God of your fathers, and (g) the LORD God of your fathers. All this meant that no man could deny that Jesus is God. Yet many do so today to their eternal ruin (damnation).

At last! Something that seems to be relevant to the issue! - the credibility of the LXX. Are you saying this is the version Paul used in preaching, or that it's essentially fake.

I must I hhaven't a CzlUE in what form if any this text is going to turn up or to whom it be addressed.
It was meant to be addressed to Nehemiah6. The gremlins are having a field day today! jav
You should be aware that the Septuagint (LXX) is a corrupted Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.

In any event, the pre-incarnate Christ -- the eternal Word of God -- often appeared to men as "the Angel of the LORD", and when He did, men worshipped Him and saw Him as God. So when He appeared to Moses at the burning bush, the first thing that hap

pened is that Moses was told to remove his shoes because where he was standing was holy ground. Then the Angel of the LORD identified Himself as (a) God, (b) the LORD, (c) I AM THAT I AM (d) I AM, (e) the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, (f) the God of your fathers, and (g) the LORD God of your fathers. All this meant that no man could deny that Jesus is God. Yet many do so today to their eternal ruin (damnation).
used in preaching, or is it essentially fake?
 

AndrewMorgan

Active member
Jul 10, 2022
375
81
28
#31
First - I've NO idea where this post will turn up and to whom it will be addressed - it was meant to be Nehemiah6. The gremlins are having a field day today.
Anyway - At last! Something that seems to be relevant to the issue! - the credibility of the LXX. Are you saying that Paul used this version in preaching, or is it essentially fake?
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,768
1,063
113
Oregon
cfbac.org
#32
.

Isaiah 9:6 . . For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the
government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called
Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The
Prince of Peace.

Unfortunately the Hebrew word translated "everlasting" in that passage
doesn't always pertain to the indefinite past, but does usually always pertain
to the indefinite future; for example Gen 17:7-8 which says:

"I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants
after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you
and your descendants after you. Also I give to you and your descendants
after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an
everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

In other words; we may safely assume that Messiah's kingdom is set to be
perpetual; which is how the Jews of Jesus' day understood it, for example
John 12:34 which says:

"We have heard out of the law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how
can you say: The Son of Man must be lifted up?"

BTW: The Hebrew word translated "father" doesn't necessarily pertain to a
parent; for example 2Kings 2:12 and 2Kings 13:14 where two strong
spiritual leader-- Elijah and Elisha --are spoken of as fathers.

On the flip side, neither does "mother" always pertain to a parent, for
example the prophetess/judge Deborah. (Judges 5:7)
_
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,703
13,516
113
#33
Sorry - I'm baffled by this! Where does this "I AM" business came from? I'm talking about the specific verse in the OT, where God is talking to Moses. Nowhere in this verse does it seem to me that God is making "I am" into anything specially to do with Him - rather - He's using the term in the same people usually use it.
actually no, He is not using this word in the way it is typically used.

He said,
Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel,
‘I AM has sent me to you.’

(Exodus 3:14)

in Hebrew '
I AM' is one word:

hayah: to fall out, come to pass, become, be
Original Word: הָיָה
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hayah
Phonetic Spelling: (haw-yaw)
Definition: to fall out, come to pass, become, be
it is used 3,561 times in the Bible in various tenses & conjugations. usually things like 'was, is, became, etc.'
it is the rough equivalent of English 'to be' Latin 'esse' or Spanish 'ser' or 'estar' or French 'etre' or German 'sein'
'to be' is arguably the most fundamental verb in any language. it describes existence; it is the basic principle of ontology.

it is a verb, and being a verb it has a subject & an object - in our language for example we might say
"
the elephant is eloquent"
here "
is" pairs the subject elephant to the descriptive object eloquent.

but God does not use this word in any such way in Exodus 3:14
He tells Moses that when they ask who has sent Moses, he is to inform the children of Israel that "I AM" did.
the word is being used here in an extraordinary way, as a name without any subject or object.

suppose i showed you something in my hand and you said "
what is that?"
and i replied simply "is"
is that the regular way people use this word, 'to be' ?
no, dude. it is not.

God is telling Moses that when the people question whether he is really sent by the God of their fathers, the way to prove that to them is say "
TO EXIST" sent him.

God is the source of all existence. nothing causes Him to exist and He doesn't exist for the purpose of anything else.
He, and He alone, is self-existing. He exists because He exists; He exists so that He exists, He exists in order that He exists. He was what He was, is what He is, will be what He will be -- causeless & needing no explanation. nothing can be added to Him or taken away.

so He says He is I AM -- no noun, no adjective, no adverb attached.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,703
13,516
113
#34
God's answer is interesting. According to the (I think) usually regarded to be authentic Greek Septuagint, God says "I am the ("One" or "Being"). Tell them "The ("One" or "Being") has sent you, not "I am sending you".
i don't know where you are getting 'the one or being' from but that is inaccurate; it's not in the text at all either of the original Hebrew or the translated Greek.
there is no 'the' or 'one' -- it is the verb "to be"
you could say "being" i guess but not the noun 'being' ((like an entity or person)) -- it's the verb "being" as in
"existing"
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,703
13,516
113
#35
of course you are confused, when God spoke to Moses, He spoke in the LANGUAGE we see Moses later on write the Torah. in the HEBREW, I AM = (אֶהְיֶה) = I AM or I WILL BE = always the SAME from End to Beginning and Beginning to End as in NEVER CHANGES!

STOP using translations when you have access to the [[((VERY LANGUAGE))]] God spoke to Moses in!
it is germaine to look at how the Jew's Greek translation of the Torah handles Exodus 3, because we are comparing what Christ said of Himself in the NT which is in Greek.

as a few people have pointed out already, the Jews were not at all confused about whether Jesus was claiming to be God. they immediately picked up stones to try to put Him to death for blasphemy. whether He said I AM in Greek to them or in Hebrew, i don't know, and that's interesting, but the account we have of this was passed to us in Greek so it makes sense both to look at the Torah here in Hebrew & in Greek, understanding that the Hebrew of course has precedence.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,703
13,516
113
#36
Anyway - At last! Something that seems to be relevant to the issue! - the credibility of the LXX. Are you saying that Paul used this version in preaching, or is it essentially fake?
what Nehemiah is saying is that he is KJV-only, so of course he rejects anything but the manuscripts the KJV translators used.
the overall accuracy of the LXX is not really relevant to the topic. it doesn't matter at all because in John 8 when Christ said before Abraham, I AM -- the people He said this to immediately understood it as identifying Himself as their God.

this is true no matter what objection anyone makes to the LXX.

the actual relevant thing he said to you is that Christ is God, which is what the Jews in John 8 understood Him to be saying, too
the relevant thing is whether you will pick up stones with them, to try & kill Jesus -- or whether you will believe Him.

=]
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,642
8,192
113
#37
Ex 3:14 - καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῗς τοῗς υἱοῗς Ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς

The first part here usus the same expression in Greek as Christ used 'ἐγώ εἰμι'. I am.

The second part you are referring to makes no difference really as it is God who is doing the sending.. The one true God. The ἐγώ εἰμι (I Am).


It is apparent that Jesus' self understanding of himself is that he is YHWH (God).

YHWH's self identification in the first half of Ex 3:14 as 'I Am' is the God who sends Moses. (second half).

Therefore Jesus makes the claim that he is the eternal God who called Moses, appeared to Him and sent him. The Jews certainly did not mistake Jesus claim to being YHWH. Stoning was the penalty for blasphemy Cf. Lev 24:16.

As a side note - it is interesting that when the OT is quoted in the NT it predominately quotes from the LXX. Greek translation of the OT. From Jesus through to Paul etc.
IMO the Alexandrian LXX (the only complete manuscript we have) does have a couple of issues and errors, notably Exodus 12:40 (the short sojourn debate). This is the same error in the Samaritan Pentateuch.

But consider the inevitable fact that in Paul's day there were many many greek LXX manuscripts available which did NOT have grevious errors. This is evidenced by the fact of the NT clearly proclaims a 430 years sojourn.

When you knock off the known problems the Alexandrian LXX is an extremely useful document. It proves that indeed Rabbi Akiva DID alter the text, evidenced by the "short" Genesis genealogies in the Masoretic text. Among sevaral other obvious alterations.
 
Jun 5, 2020
941
169
43
#38
"There was no Father and Son in the beginning it was only God."

Who is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?

Revelation 13:8
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
As shown above, John wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:1-3)

Should people believe you or the Apostle John?

The lamb slain from the foundation of the world is, of course, Jesus Christ. The expression is poetic imagery; it was part of God's plan from the beginning that His Son would be sacrificed to pay the price for all sin committed by people for all of history.
 

AndrewMorgan

Active member
Jul 10, 2022
375
81
28
#39
[QUOTE="posthuman, post: 4893110,

Maybe I'm genuinely missing something relevant that others see, but, as I say, I'm not seeing it. I don't get this idea that the credibility of the LXX is irrelevant. Is this version the one that Paul used in preaching?
I intend looking at what the Jewish OT says. I think the authenticity (or lack thereof) of the LXX is crucial.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,703
13,516
113
#40
Maybe I'm genuinely missing something relevant that others see, but, as I say, I'm not seeing it. I don't get this idea that the credibility of the LXX is irrelevant. Is this version the one that Paul used in preaching?
I intend looking at what the Jewish OT says. I think the authenticity (or lack thereof) of the LXX is crucial.
what does any of that have to do with whether or not in John 8 Jesus Christ is claiming to be the very same LORD God of Exodus 3 . . . ?

feel like you are trying to change subjects.