Hell

Runningman · Jul 23, 2022

The Bible doesn’t define death as separation from God. Rather sun separates someone from God in the sense He won’t hear them nor pay attention to them, but it isn’t permanent. God will come close again if they repent.

Isaiah 59:1,2
1Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

agreed. This is post-resurrection destruction of the soul and body via the lake of fire.

I honestly think you’re defining death incorrectly since death isn’t a separation from God. Death is actually just death. Sin is temporary separation from God. Were Adam and Eve eternally separated from God they day they died spiritually? Was David separated from God forever when he sinned? No, God still helped them.

That passage doesn’t say the torment is eternal.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable and it doesn’t say the torment lasts forever.

They are not immortal for only those saved by Christ can be immortal.

It says the smoke rises forever. In Isaiah 34:10 Edom, a place on Earth, is said to be burning forever and that it has smoke rising forever, but it’s not still burning and smoking. This is called apocalyptic language and it’s meant to be dramatic, not literal in this case.

“No rest day or night” does not presuppose eternity. Literally that means for one day and one night they won’t rest. There is pain involved in the second death, but it isn’t eternal.

I am not saying there is a second chance post-judgement is the wicked. They’ll be put to death, destroyed soul and body, just like the Bible says. They won’t be conscious living forever in torment.

Oriel36 · Jul 23, 2022

During the life of a person, being in heaven or hell is a spiritual condition with very real physical effects so the joys and torments are part of that journey. If a person receives a birth in spirit, my goodness, they will certainly experience hell in equal measure in such a way that they become familiar with both heaven and hell without objection.

https://ccel.org/ccel/anonymous/theologia/theologia.v.XI.html

Unlike the author of that magnificent work, I experienced those difficult times as something necessary without total debasement - a willingness to be productive and creative but not being able to. It is a period of rest as much as anything else. Yes, we die to our own concerns just as Jesus said like a grain of wheat, yet this is all part of the journey.

Deuteronomy · Jul 23, 2022

AndrewMorgan said:

Hello Andrew, to the best of my knowledge, there are no "Christian" churches/denominations that teach/have ever taught the unitarian doctrine, or that Hell/the Lake of Fire is going to be anything other than a place of conscious/everlasting punishment or torment for the reprobate.

Of course, there are non-Christian cults that teach one or both of these things, but they hardly fall within the pale of Christian orthodoxy (and as such, are not considered to be "Christian").

AndrewMorgan said:

In most cases, we cannot reach a proper understanding (exegesis) of a verse or passage when we use a prima facie/first blush/out of context reading as the sole basis of support for it (~ESPECIALLY~ when the topic is a controversial one, like the two above are).

For instance, imagine what the horrible consequences would be if we chose to base our understanding of the following verse on such a reading of it

Luke 14

26 If anyone comes to Me and does not HATE his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

A prima facie reading of the Text should never be used as the sole support a belief or a doctrine.

God bless you!!

~Deut

Evmur · Jul 23, 2022

Deuteronomy said:

Hello Andrew, to the best of my knowledge, there are no "Christian" churches/denominations that teach/have ever taught the unitarian doctrine, or that Hell/the Lake of Fire is going to be anything other than a place of conscious/everlasting punishment or torment for the reprobate.

Of course, there are non-Christian cults that teach one or both of these things, but they hardly fall within the pale of Christian orthodoxy (and as such, are not considered to be "Christian").

In most cases, we cannot reach a proper understanding (exegesis) of a verse or passage when we use a prima facie/first blush/out of context reading as the sole basis of support for it (ESPECIALLY if the topic is a controversial one, like the above two ae0. For instance, imagine what the horrible consequences would be if we chose to base our understanding of the following verse on such a reading of it

Luke 14

26 If anyone comes to Me and does not HATE his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

A prima facie reading of the Text should never be used as the sole support a belief or a doctrine.

God bless you!!

~Deut

Whenever I've seen this topic raised on forums I've only ever seen the doctrine of eternal punishment strengthened by it.

2 things. no.1. we do not fully understand the enormity of our own wickedness
no.2 we do not understand God's hatred of sin.

Both are shown at the cross.

Gideon300 · Jul 23, 2022

studentoftheword said:

Hell is a subject that can greatly disturb one -----and because of that many will make the argument that the scriptures never talk about a Place called Hell -----

Here is the thing that Folks should get -----we are made in God's image ------God is a Spiritual Being ---so we are a Spiritual Being -----God possesses a soul ---God has a will--He thinks and has emotions -----We also possess a Soul ----the soul is the mind ---will and emotions -----So in order to live in this physical world we needed a tangible body ------ so our Spirit and Soul are housed in this Physical tent --so like God we are a Tri Part being ----we are a Spirit being --we possess a soul and we live in a physical body -----

Spirits don't DON"T Folks ----when our spirit and soul leave this body ---IT GOES SOMEWHERE -----

Adam and Eve were created to have a personal relationship with God and to live forever ---there was no death or sickness in the picture ---Spirits live forever and the Body God gave us was designed to replenish and repair itself so the body was designed to sustain itself for as long as God wanted mankind to live on this earth ---- until the Fall of mankind -----Adam lives to be 930 years old by God's mercy only ----He could have killed Adam and Eve both when they disobeyed him but He showed His Agape and Mercy by kicking them out of the Garden and allowing them to live --

There are only 2 places for our Spirit and Soul to Go ----either to be with God or to be with Satan and his demons ----

Hell was created for Satan and his tribe who turned against God ---Hell was never created for people in the Beginning ------but because of Sin Hell enlarged itself to house the wicked ------which after Adam and Eve sinned we became separated from God and that included all of humanity --God made Satan the god of this world and we were all under Satan's reign ------there was not one human good and Holy ---all humanity deserved to have their spirit and soul reside in Hell ----the wages of sin is death and there are 2 deaths for us ---the first death is the body and the 2nd death is the Spirit and Soul being away from God forever in Hell with the god of this world Satan ------

Jesus came to reverse that by Shedding His Blood to cover all sin for all people and to die on the cross to give us back our eternal life ----

Sin now has been dealt with -----so sin doesn't send you to Hell ---Rejecting Jesus sends you to hell--Jesus paid your sin price -----

The Bible most definitely talks about Hell --Jesus describes hell ---Jesus talks more about hell than He does Heaven -----so people thinking there is no hell ---eternal torment mentioned in Scripture is False and dangerous for their Spirit and soul --

100 Bible Verses aboutHell Enlarge It Self
https://www.openbible.info/topics/hell_enlarge_it_self

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read all ---for yourselves --Just posting this much
What the Bible Says About Hell
https://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell

Key Facts About Eternity
(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15).

(2) Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny (Hebrews 9:27).

(3) Heaven or hell is determined by whether a person believes (puts their trust) in Christ alone to save them (John 3:16, 36, etc.).

Key Passages About Hell
(1) Hell was designed originally for Satan and his demons (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10).

(2) Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8).

(3) Hell is conscious torment.

Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”

(4) Hell is eternal and irreversible.

___________________________________________________________________________

this is another read on Hell ---read all yourselves

https://www2.gvsu.edu/pontiusd/hell.html#:~:text=Jesus Christ says in Matthew,enter hell —%THE TRUTH

ABOUT HELL
by Terry Watkins

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments. . ." Luke 16:23
What you're about to read is hard to believe. . .
We're going to examine the place the Bible calls hell. We'll present documented evidence for a place called hell. Don't take what you're going to read lightly. YOU COULD BE IN SERIOUS DANGER!
The Bible continually warns of a place called hell. There are over 162 references in the New Testament alone which warns of hell. And over 70 of these references were uttered by the Lord Jesus Christ!

God does not have a soul. God is Spirit. Lord Jesus in His human incarnation had a soul.

studentoftheword · Jul 23, 2022

Gideon300 said:

So are you saying God can't think ----that god has no Will --and that God shows no Emotion -------God id Spirit but God is also a person -------if you want to believe that God doesn't have a soul then that is your belief ---that is not my belief and there is scripture that says He does have a soul ---We are made in God's i

With all due respect - ------The soul is your mind will and emotions ----so does God think ===He had a plan to create this world before He Created it -----does God have a Will --I think He does ----does God show emotions ----like righteous anger and joy ---I think He does -----so God appears to me to have a soul -----God is a person ===Jesus is a person and the Holy Spirit is a person -------all 3 are Spiritual being but are persons as well -----

This is from Compelling Truth web sight

The Hebrew word nephesh is the word for soul in the Old Testament, and there are passages that use this word in reference to God (Leviticus 26:11; Judges 10:16). In Jeremiah 32:41 God says, "I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul." Other prophetic passages also seem to indicate that God has a soul (Zechariah 11:8 KJV).

If we consider personhood to mean that one has a soul, then God has a soul because He has a mind, will, and emotions. God the Father and the Holy Spirit are able to feel (Ezekiel 5:13; Psalm 103:13; Ephesians 4:30). Jesus, the Son of God, is a spiritual being and also a human with a soul and a spirit. He is our link to God, interceding on our behalf (Hebrews 7:25). Jesus is God and He has a soul. So, in that sense, yes, God has a soul.

What the Bible says about God's Soul
(From Forerunner Commentary)

Leviticus 26:11

God's soul, the seat of His feelings, will not abhor them. In verse 30, conversely, if they do not obey Him, He says, "I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you."

studentoftheword · Jul 23, 2022

Runningman said:

Strong’s isn’t a dictionary where you can just look up alternative meanings and then replace words with. I’m not a Greek expert, but I know enough to understand that there’s a good reason why every Bible version and translation I’ve seen of Matthew 25:46 uses the word punishment and not torment.

Your Grasping at straws -----with this comment --in my view ----

Runningman · Jul 23, 2022

studentoftheword said:

How am I grasping at straws, in your view, when I am just doing the same thing you did; referring to Strong's? We are talking word translation now and the word you're referencing, "punishment", is a singular noun. Plus, all Bible translations I've seen don't defer to the word "torment." I wonder why.

Runningman · Jul 23, 2022

Gideon300 said:

1 Timothy 6:15,16
15 which he will make known in his own time, the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of those who reign as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,

16 the one who alone possesses immortality, who lives in unapproachable light, whom no human being has seen nor is able to see, to whom behonor and eternal power. Amen.

Pilgrimshope · Jul 23, 2022

Amanuensis said:

“Hades and Hell are the same as Sheol and Gehenna. Hebrew and Greek and English.”

yes I completely agree often the new testsment greek uses a different word from the Aramaic or Hebrew nice to texts , but it’s common understanding it’s part of the translation process to English

I’ve honestly never understood a lot of value in which word is used “ hades “ “ hell “ “ Sheol “ ect even “ outer darkness “

it’s all referring to a spiritual place after we die that’s completely separated from God , from peace , from light.

it’s also referred to as a “ spiritual prison “ the pit “ in other places in scripture in my own view I’m looking at the concept of this place rather than if a Hebrew , Aramaic or Greek word isnised to name the place it’s what we learn about this place that’s important in my view not what it’s called or which languages word is chosen as it’s name

in my own view and that’s all I have is what I myself believe from scripture the importance is to accept place after a person dies where we can be at peace with the lord forever or a place where we can never have rest or peace where torments go on and thirst is never quenched , where the flame never ceases and “their worm never dies “

clearly the Bible teaches of these two places for after a person dies it’s the reaping of what was sown in life if we sow evil well harvest that reward if we turn and sow good we will harvest eternal life with the lord

the lake of fire is definately sort of a final step to hell hell
Itself is emptied and cast into the lake of fire along with death

what I find interesting is after this immediately we see a new heaven and earth d the old is gone passed away never to be remembered again also death is finally destroyed after it’s cast into the flames with hell itself

so you have this action

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬

and then you have this result

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:

for the former things are passed away.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1, 4‬ ‭

if there is no more death , pain , sorrow or tears how can there be a group that’s eternally being tormented in the presence of God ?

it seems as though hell leads up to the final jidgement , at that point hell is emptied me everyone is judged some inherit the kingdom of eterbal
Life the new creation and others seem to pass away like death ends when it’s cast into the fire .

I’m beginning to see things I never saw about this subject, and I think it’s important that none of us can actually prove our theory but if we open our mind to consideration it may change due to scripture and other peoples perceptions that we might miss

I’m starting to think hell and torment ends with the first creation but again not really sure still open

Nehemiah6 · Jul 23, 2022

Amanuensis said:

That is incorrect so why are you trying to mislead people.?

SHEOL = HADES (which is not Hell)

GEHENNA = ETERNAL HELL = THE LAKE OF FIRE

Sheol is neither the grave nor the pit and the King James translators did us all a great disservice by using the word "hell" indiscriminately.

Edify · Jul 23, 2022

Nehemiah6 said:

Amen!
One among many.

SteveEpperson · Jul 23, 2022

I notice how the OP has completely run away from this thread. It always amazes me how people who question the validity of the Bible don't really want to know the answers.

Webers.Home · Jul 23, 2022

.
Soul began appearing in the Bible in the book of Genesis by the Hebrew
word nephesh (neh'-fesh) which isn't unique to human life. Its first
appearance is at Gen 1:20-21 in reference to aqua creatures and winged
creatures; again at Gen 1:24 as terra creatures; viz: cattle, creepy crawlies,
and wild beasts; and again in Gen 2:7 as the human creature; and yet again
at Gen 9:10 to classify every living thing aboard Noah's ark.

God has a soul too. (Lev 26:11, Lev 26:30, Judg 10:16, Isa 42:1, Jer 32:41,
and Zech 11:8)

Soul is somewhat ambiguous but basically refers to consciousness, self
awareness, and individuality. It's sometimes a reference to one's heart, e.g.
Gen 34:3, and to the core of one's being, e.g. Gen 27:4.

The human soul is very durable. Although the body can be killed by man, the
soul can be killed only by the hand of God.

• Matt 10:28 . . Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill
the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.
_

Pilgrimshope · Jul 23, 2022

Nehemiah6 said:

what does it matter if we say hell or hades ?

the only difference is ancient people said hades , Greek speaking world which was later how English came about sa yes hell

how is it a dis service ? Seems like just a distraction from what it says about the afterlife and that place

Pilgrimshope · Jul 23, 2022

SteveEpperson said:

yes and how far and how many reasons they come up with not to believe it

Amanuensis · Jul 23, 2022

Nehemiah6 said:

Jesus characterized the intermediate state of the wicked after death (hell, Hades) as one of fire (Luke 16:23,24), but this is to be distinguished from the eternal fire. Jesus’ words in Luke 16 show us that the wicked remain conscious and are aware of their state and of what they have missed. But the eternal fire is to be identified with what Jesus called Gehenna or literally “the gehenna of fire” (Matthew 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:8,9; 23:15; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5). This fire is not only to be eternal, but is also said to be of such a nature that it can never be quenched (Mark 9:43). This clearly indicates that there can be no possible end to the fire or the punishment. The punishment is as eternal as the fire. If the fire brought an annihilation of the wicked, there would be no reason for the fire being eternal.

Amanuensis · Jul 23, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

“Hades and Hell are the same as Sheol and Gehenna. Hebrew and Greek and English.”

yes I completely agree often the new testsment greek uses a different word from the Aramaic or Hebrew nice to texts , but it’s common understanding it’s part of the translation process to English

I’ve honestly never understood a lot of value in which word is used “ hades “ “ hell “ “ Sheol “ ect even “ outer darkness “

it’s all referring to a spiritual place after we die that’s completely separated from God , from peace , from light.

it’s also referred to as a “ spiritual prison “ the pit “ in other places in scripture in my own view I’m looking at the concept of this place rather than if a Hebrew , Aramaic or Greek word isnised to name the place it’s what we learn about this place that’s important in my view not what it’s called or which languages word is chosen as it’s name

in my own view and that’s all I have is what I myself believe from scripture the importance is to accept place after a person dies where we can be at peace with the lord forever or a place where we can never have rest or peace where torments go on and thirst is never quenched , where the flame never ceases and “their worm never dies “

clearly the Bible teaches of these two places for after a person dies it’s the reaping of what was sown in life if we sow evil well harvest that reward if we turn and sow good we will harvest eternal life with the lord

the lake of fire is definately sort of a final step to hell hell
Itself is emptied and cast into the lake of fire along with death

what I find interesting is after this immediately we see a new heaven and earth d the old is gone passed away never to be remembered again also death is finally destroyed after it’s cast into the flames with hell itself

so you have this action

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬

and then you have this result

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:

for the former things are passed away.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1, 4‬ ‭

if there is no more death , pain , sorrow or tears how can there be a group that’s eternally being tormented in the presence of God ?

it seems as though hell leads up to the final jidgement , at that point hell is emptied me everyone is judged some inherit the kingdom of eterbal
Life the new creation and others seem to pass away like death ends when it’s cast into the fire .

I’m beginning to see things I never saw about this subject, and I think it’s important that none of us can actually prove our theory but if we open our mind to consideration it may change due to scripture and other peoples perceptions that we might miss

I’m starting to think hell and torment ends with the first creation but again not really sure still open

Jesus characterized the intermediate state of the wicked after death (hell, Hades) as one of fire (Luke 16:23,24), but this is to be distinguished from the eternal fire. Jesus’ words in Luke 16 show us that the wicked remain conscious and are aware of their state and of what they have missed. But the eternal fire is to be identified with what Jesus called Gehenna or literally “the gehenna of fire” (Matthew 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:8,9; 23:15; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5). This fire is not only to be eternal, but is also said to be of such a nature that it can never be quenched (Mark 9:43). This clearly indicates that there can be no possible end to the fire or the punishment. The punishment is as eternal as the fire. If the fire brought an annihilation of the wicked, there would be no reason for the fire being eternal.

AndrewMorgan · Jul 24, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

It matters greatly, because getting it wrong clouds the whole issue.

Runningman · Jul 24, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

That’s an interesting point that I don’t think I ever really consciously noticed before. They are brought up from hell to check if they are in the book of life or not.

Didn’t they go to hell for not being in the book of life? Maybe we always assumed that.

What if people in hell are found in the book of life? That part in Revelation 20 suggests to me that if they need to check the book of life to see if people who were in hell are in it then there’s a possibility they could be.

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