Do you believe in (OSAS) Once Saved, Always Saved?

Here is a short version of my understanding of Heb 6:4-6:

I think that the person described in verses 4,5 has been born again - he "has tasted of the Holy Ghost".

This saved person then falls away - I take this to mean he loses faith in Jesus - which means he is lost.

Verse 6 then says that it is impossible to renew this person to repentance while they are doing the actions of the two verbs (Greek - present participles) - that is - someone cannot be brought back to repentance while at the same time they are crucifying the Son of God and putting him to an open shame. (The Greek present participle is action occurring at the same time as the main verb)

The verse does not state (though it implies it) this, but it would seem that if the person stops the actions of the 2 verbs, then they can be renewed to repentance.

your previous question is a strawman. the penalty of sin is death. so unless someone completely stops sin and becomes perfect. Apart from grace they would suffer spiritual death the moment the commited any sin.

Sadly satan wants to convince people if we commit these sins. then we can;t be saved, Because he wants us to deny our sins are all that bad. and we can continue to commit them, they are ok.

as for my question. You either believe them to be true, or you do not. If you believe them to be true. you fall into OSAS, If you do not believe them to be literally true, You fall into NOSAS

as for as continuing faith. John speaks on this issue, those who walk away having nw denied God in unbelief, they were never of us, if they were they never would have left (1 john)

they "they" are those who are born again, adopted as a son or a daughter. a person who was dead in trespasses and sin but are now made alive in Christ. A person who were given all of those thing in all 6 questions.

if you do not believe in osas. Your answer would be no to all of the questions.

This is a bit hilarious. You are telling me how I am supposed to answer the questions! You obviously do not understand what I believe.

Here is what I believe:

If the "they" of the six questions is a born again, adopted as a son or daughter, etc. person who has faith in Jesus' death and resurrection, then the answer is "yes" to all six questions.

If the "they" does not have faith in Jesus then the answer is no.

And I do not believe in OSAS - I believe salvation is by God grace throuth faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Though this is a very popular view, it has no biblical support. There are no verses that teach with clear and plain language that those who lose faith will lose salvation.

In fact, that would be impossible, because Jesus taught very clearly that believers possess eternal life: John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47. This means that a person possesses eternal life WHEN they become a believer.

Then, in John 10:28 He said that recipients of eternal life (believers) shall never perish.

So this shows that from the MOMENT a person becomes a believer, Jesus said they shall never perish.

The point is this: Jesus gave NO conditions or requirements on believers for never perishing.

So, from the MOMENT one believes, they possess eternal life, and they shall never perish. This is what Jesus taught.

Paul taught eternal security from the perspective of the indwelling Holy Spirit. In Eph 1:13,14 he said "having believed" the person is sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit that GUARANTEES the person's inheritance as a possession of God.

Couldn't be any more clear.

True believers who love the Lord do not fall away. Those who fall away either don't love the Lord or don't believe. Simple as that.

The issue in textual interpretation is never on what view is popular or not, or does it match my doctrine or not.

The issue is what was the author saying by inspiration of the Lord in the context. What does the text actually say?

There are many verses in the Bible that give clear promises of eternal life and of security for the person who believes in Christ.
There are no verses that say a person who is not believing in Jesus Christ has eternal life.

Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ and that is atoning death and resurrection will save you from eternal death?

lets try again, It said I was editing, I do not remember, then it deleted my whole post and would not let me delete.

1. I understand what you believe. what you call hilarious is quite hilarious. lets look at the questions again

do you believe when he says they also have eternal life (not conditional)

You believe that eternal life can be lost if we lose faith. that means we do not HAVE eternal life. we HAVE conditional life. thus your answer to this question is NO.

do you believe when he says the are given the spirit as a pledge UNTIL the day of redemption

If you believe that after we hear the word of truth, and after we believe, and after we are sealed with the spirit. that we can be unsealed. then the answer to this question is no

do you believe when he says they will never be lost?

If you believe after a person is given eternal life after they "come to Jesus" (john 6) that they can be lost again, Then you answer to the question is no

do you believe God when he says they will never die?

In john 6. Jesus said whoever eats the bread he came to give will never die. So if you think after eating this bread and recieving this promise, they can die. The your answer to that question is no.


do you believe God when he says they will be raised by him?

in the same passage. Jesus said we will be raised by him, those who ate the bread through faith in Christ and receiving the word, if you think they can still be delivered to him, and not be resurrected for any reason, then your answer is no to that question.

These are just fact. if you think it is hilarious, I am sorry. I actually think it is hilarious for someone to say they trust God, yet deny the things that give us the hope and ability to continue to believe. which are gods promises. (john said the power for us to continue to believe is the knowledge we HAVE eternal life.

as humans, we lose faith when people continually fail us. or we never really had faith in them to begin with

there are only 2 reasons to lose faith in God

1. God continually fails us, so we lose faith in him, because he is untrustworthy
2. We never truly had faith in him to begin with. Our belief was superficial.

The writer of Hebrews 6 is introducing supposition that the saved " is impossible...to fall away". The writer doubts and guards himself against endorsing the idea of falling away.

Not quite. There are no verses that teach this. Instead, the Bible teaches that who believe in Christ for salvation possess eternal life and Jesus said those who possess eternal life shall never perish.

iow, never perishing is based solely on what Jesus does, and nothing about what we might do.

Jesus placed no conditions or requirements on believers to avoid perishing.

From the MOMENT one believes, they shall never perish.

In the parable of the soils, Jesus noted that the 2nd soil "believed for a while" and then "fell away" (from his faith) due to trials/temptations. But He never said they were lost.

The best place to teach that losing faith results in losing salvation would be in verses where believers are encouraged to "hang in there".

Acts 11:23 - When he arrived and saw what the grace of God had done, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts.

Did Luke follow this up with warnings about what will occur IF one doesn't 'remain true to the Lord'?

v.24 - He was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and faith, and a great number of people were brought to the Lord.

Nope.

Acts 14:22 - strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. “We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said.

Did Luke include any warning here about what would occur IF they didn't "remain true to the faith"?

v.23 -
Paul and Barnabas appointed elders[a] for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.

Nope.

So, in 2 verses that directly address the issue of "remaining true to the Lord/faith", there is NO warning about consequences if anyone doesn't remain true.

I'm NOT peddling the false idea of "living it up, do anything you want" kind of life. The flip side of eternal security is God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11).

Seems the Arminians have never heard of God's discipline. But it is real, it is real painful and it will occur for God's children that choose to rebel, disobey or be unfaithful.

Yes, it isn't as if there is no consequences for sin for a saved person. The Holy Spirit works on our spirit to cleanse us from being in sin.

If church leaders are doing their job, they will address our sin issues thru a process like Matthew 18.

Jesus may end our life to stop us if it's that serious.

In heaven, a person misses rewards for sin issues in their life.

Other believers in the persons life may withdraw fellowship from them also.

The line of 'I can then go and do whatever I want' if osas is true.. isn't thinking in spiritual terms. It's like a lost person getting saved.. and then just straight after salvation still thinking like they have no Holy Spirit in them.

For now, I only have time to answer on of your points above.

The trouble is your definition of "eternal life". It seems to me you define it primarily as "living biologically forever". In the Greek expression "eternal life" the noun life is "zoe". Jesus himself is zoe as He said in John 14:6. To have life is to know and have a relationship with Jesus Christ (John 17:3). The noun zoe is the foundation of the meaning, not the adjective "eternal". If eternal life is just living forever, then the wicked will also have eternal life!!

When the Scriptures say that the gift of God is eternal life it means that the believer is giving an ongoing, deep, real, and vital intimate relationship with Jesus Christ. To make eternal life into simply "living forever" cheapens the good news.

So does a person who is believing in Jesus have eternal life. Yes, absolutely!
Does the person who rejects Jesus and is not believing have eternal life? Absolutely not!

Try throwing out the presupposition of OSAS and just take at face value what Scripture says. You will find it freeing, real, and powerful for you life today, and for tomorrow!

We can stop right here. I am not sure why you would think this. No one is promised to live biologically forever. This body will (unless your alive on christs return) perish and be ressurected to a new spiritual body.

This again makes no sense.

Jesus literally says, You will never PERISH, but (literal interpretation) Live forever.

I feel far to many people have made a religious term of the words. And not just take it for what it means.
Sorry brother. But when Jesus said we have been given a second birth (born again) and once this new birth occures. We will never die (spiritua;ly) and this life will last forever. I am not sure how you can cheapen this. This is the greatest news anyone can ever have, this is the good news of jesus.

What waters this message down is those who claim this life which is said to be eternal can be lost. And we can actually die again, And this new life based on Gods love, if really based on our work of whatever it is we have to do to keep it.
if he at one time so called believed, and recieved eternal life. Then changes his mind and all of a sudden does nto believe. Then he NEVER had eternal life.

spin it however you wish, He never had eternal life. The answer to the question is still no. You have not changed that position

I am taking scripture for what it says,

Jesus said those who are born again will NEVER DIE. And HAS (present tense) ETERNAL LIFE.

I take him literally. Why don’t you?

OK - lets do a little exercise in taking Scripture for exactly what it says and not adding to it:

I fail to find any place where Jesus said that those who are born again will NEVER DIE. If you find such words said by Jesus, please point them out to me.

Perhaps you were referring to Scriptures such as these two;
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 11: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

In both John 3:16 and in John 11:26 the verb "believe" is in the Greek present tense. This means ongoing action. Thus from these verses we learn that the one who is believing in Jesus will not perish and shall never die! Amen and amen! A wonderful promise!

Then you also mention that the one who is born again HAS ETERNAL LIFE. Again, I do not think that Jesus actually directly said it that way. If he did, please show me where?

But he did very clearly say (at least in John 3:16) that the one who is believing (present tense) in him has (present tense) eternal life.
Here we have a wonderful precious truth: the one who is believing in Christ right now ongoingly has an ongoing vital relationship with Jesus Himself who is zoe (life)

You gave scripture and then gave your private interpretation, "This means..."

John 10:28 says so clearly.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Being given eternal life means the same thing as being born again. Please don't play word games.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

No! You are missing Jesus' point completely. In Jn 10:28 Jesus made it clear that "never perishing" is based on what Jesus does: He gives eternal life. Those given eternal life shall never perish. It has nothing to do with "ongoing action" on the part of the recipient.

If you can find ANY condition or requirement for recipients of eternal life to meet for "never perishing" in John 10:28, please share.

Trying to force the Greek present tense to mean that believing must continue in order to possess eternal life is a huge error.

From Jn 5:24 it is clear that WHEN a person becomes a believer, they possess eternal life. So the gift is given WHEN a person becomes a believer. There is no probationary period before Jesus gives a believer eternal life.

And, consider Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Notice the aorist tense "when you believed". The result of that past tense action is being sealed with the Holy Spirit. And v.14 tells us that the promised Holy Spirit is A GUARANTEE of our inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

These are clear words.

Paul's answer to the jailer's question about what he MUST DO to be saved was: "believe (aorist tense) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved (future tense). Paul didn't use the present tense at all.

There are 2 verses that tell us who will be condemned.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 -
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Both verses say the exact same thing: those who "have not believed". This really means NEVER believed. That's who will be condemned.

Oh boy

John 3, those who are born again will never perish but have eternal life

John 5. 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Passed from death to life means a person was born again.

John 6 How many times did Jesus say we would never hunger, never thirst, Will never die. Have eternal life (born again) , will never be lost will be raised by him.

There are three. I know I can find more

lol. Sorry my friend. You cant have eternal life then lose it. Jesus said you will NEVER DIE.. and live forever.

You can’t HAVE eternal life, if it is lost.

Using your same example. The word ”have eternal life” is present tense also. If you HAVE eternal life. Then it can not be lost. Otherwise it is not eternal.

[qute]

Then you also mention that the one who is born again HAS ETERNAL LIFE. Again, I do not think that Jesus actually directly said it that way. If he did, please show me where? [/quote]

lol. So you looked up the word Belief but you did not look up the word have eternal life. Both are present tense.

No, he said the one who BELIEVES will never perish and HAS eternal life

Once again, You do not lose faith unless someone is not reliable. Or trustworthy. Or you never had faith to begin with.

You do not say yes I have faith I am dead in tresspasses and sin. Yes I have faith that I am headed to hell. Yes I have faith that I can not help myself. Yes I have faith the cross will save me and remove the penalty of sin from me as a gift from God based on the cross. And then do another 18- degree and stop believing those very things, UNLESS you never really trusted then to begin with.

The jew went back to the law because thats what they trusted.

A dog returns to his vomit. Because he is still a dog

An ANti christ (non believer) returns to being a anti christ (non believer) because he never really trusted in God

Many people play the christian game, but since they are not saved, and do not feel the love of Christ in their life. They return to what they truly believe. Because to them, God is untrustworthy. He has not done for them what he promised. Because they were never saved.

All your doing is professing a different form of legalism and saving yourself by claiming the onus on you continuing to trust God is on you. And not on God to prove to you he is trustworthy.

News flash. He who began a good work in you WILL (NOT MIGHT) continue until the day of christ. Nothing about stoping believing.

Oh Lord, You are my savior, Your love will never fade
In You I place my hope, knowing I'll always be saved -mn

I guess it's a matter of faith.