Sense And Nonsense...

"

It is amazing to me how some theologians can get things so mixed
up—how they can take something simple and make it complex. As
one old-timer puts it, “Some people are educated beyond their
intelligence.”

The Bible is God’s revelation to man. The word “revelation” means
that the purpose of the Bible is to reveal God to us. This reflects God’s
intention that His Word be understood by everyone, not just the scholar...

Christians, who for years thought they understood what the Bible clearly
says, are now confused because certain folks have come into their assem-
bly and told them that the Bible doesn’t really mean what it says...

...Should you fire your pastor?...

...We, the Body of Christ, need to reach unity in doctrine—unity of the
faith, the body of truth committed to the Apostle Paul. Look around
and it quickly becomes obvious that this condition has not been met...

...Is it wrong to pray?...Does all really mean all?...

...If God is not involved in physical things today, if He does not answer
prayer today, if He is disinterested in what is going on in the world
today, then why bother—we may as well be atheists. For all practical
purposes, this teaching is the same as Deism or Gnosticism...
"
(D Havard)

FULL study:
Sense And Nonsense

GRACE And Peace...

Yes, we sure have complicated things. I keep trying to remind myself, KISS....

Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected. Listen to Him, and adopt His style of thinking and doing. Pretty simple, really....very hard to do at times, yes, which is why we need to encourage each other to keep pressing on after Him, along the path that is narrow, and KIS.

In my world and the pastors I have heard from various denominations and non denominations over the decades a scholarly pastor is very rare.

We could use more. By scholar I mean at the very minimum, those that can read the NT in Greek and are familiar with the manuscripts and the variants.

I would say that the main reason we have pastors that make mistakes in interpretations of scripture is that they are NOT scholarly.

Milk and meat. Eyes and ears.

The Catholics were told things that were wrong for a thousand years. Listening to scholarly teachers show them in the scriptures that they were wrong was a good thing.

That is the way tradition works. People will go generation after generation believing the bible teaches something it does not say and the only way out of that trap is to exegete in a scholarly manner and "See the light" that you were making a mistake all this time.

I agree with your main point. However, I can't see the church ever being united in doctrine. We do require unity in spirit. If people would seek that first, it would make a huge difference. We need to be prepared to agree to disagree. So many disputed doctrines are irrelevant to life. We will find out when the rapture will take place when it happens. Likewise if the millennial reign of Christ is literal or symbolic, if pre, post or a-milennialism is correct or other doctrines that people like to squabble over.

Christians need to get established in God's word from the beginning. Experiences are no substitute for truth and it is truth that sets us free. Those who speak truth need to do so in love, not with a critical spirit.

Pastors are much overrated. The word "pastor" is used twice in the NT. There should also be elders in the church who can teach and whose lives testify to Christ. Pastors should teach and teachers should have a pastor's heart also. The "one man band" model is a recipe for burn out and keeps God's people suppressed instead of being built up for the work of serving the Kingdom. (Ephesians 4:11)

Except scholars come up with a vast array of different interpretations of scripture. Every Christian should have a "Berean" attitude.
We have the Holy Spirit whose job description includes leading us into all truth. Know one knows all the truth individually. However, as a body, it is possible to many who know enough truth between them for the church to function as Christ intends for us.

Since the apostles were far from scholarly, would you assert that they were prone to making mistakes? Actually it is the so-called "scholars" who have done the most damage in Christendom, and attacked the Bible and its doctrines repeatedly. Godly, conservative scholars are rare and have generally been ignored because they exposed the lies of the destructive scholars.

A pastor or teacher does NOT need to be a scholar at all. He simply needs to be a diligent and hard-working student of the Word of God, since all legitimate Bible study tools are already available. But he needs to be listening to the Holy Spirit, and praying for wisdom to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

Getting back to the textual issue, there is no question that the critical texts on which modern versions are based were developed using corrupt Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. This is based upon the research of actual textual scholars who personally collated manuscripts. So the Masoretic and Received Texts should be trusted as the true Bible texts.

The lack of understanding regarding the basic principles of God’s grace is very concerning.

I'm wondering, are we forgetting that it is the Holy Spirit that will provide counsel, comfort, and truth to every individual whose spirit has been brought to life?

I'm remembering too, that we aren't supposed to worry beforehand about what to say to any arresting anti-Christian authorities, that we'll be given what we need to say at the time...so another inference that the Holy Spirit will be with us.

That being the case, why do we think we need to go to some theologian for an interpretation of scripture.... it's as if we don't believe that Jesus spoke the truth, or that He won't keep His word.

If I need to ask something about scripture, I'm going to ask God myself first, and if I feel still confused then I'll ask people that have proven insight into God's ways, and if I can't find anyone like that then I will float a question on a forum such as Christian Chat. Can anyone see any flaws in this approach? I'm open to suggestions!

yes some try to make the word grace independent from the gospel teachkngs and warnings of Jesus

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭

we try instead to make this have some sort of “ understanding about grace “ Which erases the rest of the teaching and warnings of repentance and ongoing sin

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods grace comes to those who hear the gospel Jesus preached and believe his word. Gods grace is a teacher of repentance and righteousness

“teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”

Gods grace doesn’t ignore sin and repentance d doing good works it’s what enables us to act rightly in those things

Some say grace removes the consequences for our ongoing sin , others understand grace is able to remove the sin d there goes the punishment through repentance and remission of sins by his grace through Christ and the gospel

grace doesn’t change what he taught about repentance and death or righteousness and life

The modern concept of "Berean" to mean "you only need the OT for answers" is backwards and contrary to scripture.

Observing scripture as a whole is fine so long as it is recognized that reading the OT without the NT leads to a vailed understanding.

Are your works filthy rags, yes or no?

Correct. For the historical Bereans, the Tanakh (OT) was regarded as "the holy Scriptures" and Paul said that they were able to make one wise unto salvation. But then he immediately included the NT and said that "ALL Scripture" is given by inspiration of God (2 Tim 3:15-17). Christ said that the entire Tanakh revealed Him, but He is also the one who gave Paul the revelations included in the NT, while the Holy Spirit gave us the entire NT. So Christians need all 66 books of the English Bible (or the Bible in any other language). But the Catholic and Orthodox churches add the uninspired apocryphal books to their bibles, and also regard them as inspired (which is not true).

what does my life deeds thoughts or anything else that have to do with what the Bible says ? Would it change if I said yes ? Or if I said no ?

that wouldn’t change the message in the Bible would it ? It would change this or what it means d what we both understand it means about our works would it ?

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I understand where your coming from to ask about me , but what does that have to do with what’s in scripture regarding that day that we all have to do what Paul’s saying there ?

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What do my deeds have any affect on what Paul’s clearly saying is going to be how we are judged ? Based on our works and what we do ?

to answer you brother what I do or don’t do is between Jesus and me I’m included in those who have to appear before his throne of judgement and answer for every word and deed that I’ve done whether good or bad.

This is why I don’t worry about what other do d what I do and say instead because I have to give account for what I do and say d never will be asked about what anyone other than I have done or said

“For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:11-12‬ ‭

what I personally do brother is take account daily of what I’ve done and said if I find Ive done something wrong I deal with God now through repentance and get back on track

no I wouldn’t say that my deeds as a Christian are as “filthy rags “ I’d say until I accepted Christ I was clothed in scarlet d no matter what good deed I did it was corrupt because I was a sinner

when you read scriotire in the ot like that you have to add this to it the redemption process part , the change that happens

“But ye have not so learned Christ; if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:20-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the term we use “ born again “ actually is referring to the transformation that happens from what we used to be and serve and do to what we are now new people changed into the image of a Christian child of God

the power of the gospel is the change it brings through hearing and believing

See the deeds of the church aren’t filthy rags they are beauty from what was ashes , righteousness from what was sinful we have to change become new otherwise our works ll always be tainted because our hearts are tainted

“Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:9-10, 12-14, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we can’t just say we’re righteous we have to start pressing into the things Jesus said to do have to actually let faith change our ways

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What we do when we become Christian’s starts to really matter because our lives now are coming from the blood of Jesus we have to honor him

There’s a difference in before this happens and after

“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we really receive Gods spirit our deeds are being done in his immediate presence and sight d we have to upkeep his temple d make sure not to corrupt ourselves it’s a real responsibility but also he’s made us able to overcome through hearing and believing ( faith ) learning of him.

How would we act if we were standing with Jesus ? I bet we would be quick to obey everything we would be ick to say amen Jesus your teachkngs are so right on !! If God is with us then this must be important

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12-13‬ ‭

he’s patient and wills for us to repent and start following the gospel lots of forebearance and help but there’s a new life for Christian’s to lay hold of and actually start living

woohoo!
ty Jesus \0/
Without Him we can do nothing. John 15:5
Let no man glory in men. 1 Cor 3:21 >>>> 1 Cor, 8:2, 1 Cor. 10:12, Galatians 6:3
That they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Isaiah 28:13
Unction. 1 John 2:20
Teaching 1 John 2:27, Eph. 4:21
All shall know Him. Hebrews 8:11
Follow Him. John 10:27
and yes, Awake. Eph. 5:14, Hebrews 9:14, 1 Cor. 15:34, 2 Peter 1:19
Unto God. 2 Timothy 2:15
Made free John 8:32,36
Strive. Luke 13:24 Luke 16:16

We agree on most points in principle. I don't think you need to be a Seminary trained Scholar to be a good teacher. I reject all scholars who question the inspiration of the scriptures.

I don't think calling the disciples ignorant men tells the whole story. They were well read and versed in OT messianic theology and from the things they said and asked Jesus you get the impression that they were familiar with interpretations in the OT that most Christians are ignorant of. They were not educated according to the scholars of their day but they still knew more about OT scriptures and promises concerning the Kingdom of God than your average believer today.

Most people do not do the diligent self education needed to be better at interpreting their bibles correctly. That is why when you have an informal bible study in a living room setting today and ask each person to tell you what a passage means to them, or what they get out of it, you will hear all kinds of things and most of the time, not a single person will express the meaning that the author intended. This is a FACT. Test it out and prove me wrong. Experiments like this will open our eyes to the overwhelming ignorance and biblical illiteracy in our churches. Almost all of them suffer from this problem. If they heard expository verse by verse teachers at least once a week they are much more likely to have at least one of the folks give the right answer in a bible study discussion.

I know that most will answer with "It is the responsibility of the person to study on their own and not rely on the pastor to educate them on what the bible really means" but we have centuries of history that prove that they are not doing it, so pastors should go ahead and do the best they can at helping them learn the scriptures in context. Maybe, when the true message that the author intended is revealed to them, and they experience the supernatural transformation that THAT interpretation was intended to produce, then they will become hungry for more and start educating themselves and extract themselves from their suffocating indifference.

As to the textual manuscripts:
If I want to learn about the textual manuscripts in extant and their variants I will read from a variety of well respected textual manuscript experts and scholars. I will not listen to someone who has an opinion but is not a scholar. This is a great example of why we do need Scholars.

I am pro evangelical scholars and anti-ignorance.

I don't think evangelical scholars are rare.

Yes, I suppose it is possible that scholars in general can come up with different interpretations but this is not usually the case for evangelical bible believing scholars. So just removing the unbeliever scholars from the discussion, (I would never read these people) and discussing only evangelical scholars.

It is not the norm for 5 evangelical scholars who author a commentary on Luke to have different interpretations. Not even among 10 or 15 authors and separate commentaries. Especially modern works. I am reading from 7 different authors and commentaries on Luke and these authors have an array of denominational backgrounds and yet they are all in agreement in interpretation of what Luke was most likely intending. Some have a little more insight than others but none of them are coming up with different interpretations.

However it is very common for 10 or 15 average believers to come up with different interpretations of any passage in Luke.
Why? Ignorance. Pure unadulterated ignorance.

After praying and trusting the Holy Spirit for insight my next step is to read from an evangelical theologian who has spent decades researching and writing on that book of the bible. Or actually more than one author. I will reference several.

With respect, I didn’t read beyond the first paragraph. Unless I’m wrong it seems from previous posts you don’t trust the atoning sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and His saving grace but instead rely on your own righteousness.