Just Suppose...

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GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,205
1,609
113
Midwest
#1
"
SUPPOSE

Suppose it were true that a person once saved could be lost again.

Suppose such a person, to gain heaven, would then have to be saved
all over again.

But suppose the person in question never did get saved the second time
and, departing this life a lost man, went finally to the lake of fire—after
having once been “saved”?

In what sense, then, was he first saved? What was he saved from? Was
he saved from the penalty of sin? No, for he did not escape the lake of fire.

Was he saved from the power of sin? No, for he fell back into sin and died
a lost man. And most assuredly he was not saved from the presence
of sin. None this side of heaven have yet been saved from that.

What was he saved from then? The answer is: Nothing at all.

He may have thought he was saved. He may have felt saved. He may
have acted as though he were saved. His friends may have thought he
was saved but, in the final analysis, he was saved from nothing.

Salvation, to be anything more than a mere term, must be everlasting.
Any person who has been saved has been eternally saved. No one is
saved until he is eternally saved. Anyone who dies in a lost condition
never was saved at all.

Does this mean we must wait until after this life is over to find out? No.
We may be saved now and know it. This is evident from such passages as
I Corinthians 1:18, where the Apostle Paul refers to “us which are saved.”

How can we be saved? “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” —that’s what to do.

“And thou shalt be saved” —that’s when you get it (Acts 16:31).

And “the gift of God is Eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”—
that’s how Long it lasts (Rom. 6:23).​
"
(CR Stam)

GRACE And Peace...
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,229
1,126
113
New Zealand
#2
This is a big issue if you believe salvation can be undone, is that if you lose salvation how do you get it back?

If it is thru some kind of work of effort then that is against scripture regarding Jesus one time sacrifice and the nailing of works of the law to the cross.

If they have to get saved again..then the same problem ... Jesus one time sacrifice is not counted for anything.

John 3:16, 5:24, 3:36 are key
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,300
3,129
113
#3
"
SUPPOSE

Suppose it were true that a person once saved could be lost again.

Suppose such a person, to gain heaven, would then have to be saved
all over again.

But suppose the person in question never did get saved the second time
and, departing this life a lost man, went finally to the lake of fire—after
having once been “saved”?

In what sense, then, was he first saved? What was he saved from? Was
he saved from the penalty of sin? No, for he did not escape the lake of fire.

Was he saved from the power of sin? No, for he fell back into sin and died
a lost man. And most assuredly he was not saved from the presence
of sin. None this side of heaven have yet been saved from that.

What was he saved from then? The answer is: Nothing at all.

He may have thought he was saved. He may have felt saved. He may
have acted as though he were saved. His friends may have thought he
was saved but, in the final analysis, he was saved from nothing.

Salvation, to be anything more than a mere term, must be everlasting.
Any person who has been saved has been eternally saved. No one is
saved until he is eternally saved. Anyone who dies in a lost condition
never was saved at all.

Does this mean we must wait until after this life is over to find out? No.
We may be saved now and know it. This is evident from such passages as
I Corinthians 1:18, where the Apostle Paul refers to “us which are saved.”

How can we be saved? “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” —that’s what to do.

“And thou shalt be saved” —that’s when you get it (Acts 16:31).

And “the gift of God is Eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”—
that’s how Long it lasts (Rom. 6:23).​
"
(CR Stam)

GRACE And Peace...
Man's fundamental problem is not sin. Adam disobeyed God and died. The only hope for man is to be brought back to life. And that is exactly what Jesus offers. He is the resurrection and the life. He came that we might have life. The obsession that many Christians have with sin robs them of the greater truth. Colossians 2:13, Ephesians 2:5 - "Made you alive with Christ."

If Christ can die, so can the Christian. Eternal life is eternal. So no, a Christian cannot be eternally separated from God. He may miss out on Kingdom rewards, but that is a different issue.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,669
6,860
113
#4
Jesus begs to differ......and the Apostle Paul as well:

2 Thessalonians, Chapter 2:

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Matthew, Chapter 24:

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Your argument is not with those of us who understand it is possible (because of Free Will) for man to turn his back on God, your argument is with Jesus.

Once saved, always saved is flawed theology at best, and false teaching at worst. You guys need to change your mantra to One sanctified, always sanctified....... At least then, you will be in keeping with Scripture....
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,947
5,648
113
#5
Amen it’s always Gods clear words of warning that man ignores and pretends don’t apply it happened in Eden , it happened with Moses law d it happens with Christian’s and the words of Christ

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-27‬ ‭

That’s pretty straight forward warning but plain statements like that get ignored because of ore conceived hyper grace osas garbley goop

They are in almost every epistle

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s really a sad thing to see Christian’s telling other Christian’s this stuff is untrue and assuring them they are already saved me can’t lose salvation they are being taught to ignore Gods clear and present warning meant to bring repentance and life

but that’s been mans issue all along in Eden “ don’t eat the fruit you’ll surely die “ said God

“ you won’t die trust me go ahead and eat it “ said the other guy

man rejected Gods warning and came death the. Israel and the law “ I set before you life and death choose life “ they chose death through rejecting his word again

life

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he’s saying we need to accept his word as true warnings and blessing both that will save us but if we reject his word of warning we’re only sharing half truths and omissions and making promises we have no power to fulfill

the Bible is very clear that some will believe at first and fall away and be lost later because of many factors

Some answer this with “ well it just means they never were really saved “ but it’s like the chicken and egg argument

the truth is we have hope of salvation and trust Jesus the savior to save us d so because of this we press forward and refuse complacency bread by the osas hyper grace books on the world teaching people the same thing the devil did in Eden “ Gods warnings aren’t really true “
 
Sep 6, 2014
7,034
5,435
113
#6
Jesus begs to differ......and the Apostle Paul as well:

2 Thessalonians, Chapter 2:

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Matthew, Chapter 24:

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Your argument is not with those of us who understand it is possible (because of Free Will) for man to turn his back on God, your argument is with Jesus.

Once saved, always saved is flawed theology at best, and false teaching at worst. You guys need to change your mantra to One sanctified, always sanctified....... At least then, you will be in keeping with Scripture....
Figure of speech or not, Jesus doesn't beg anyone.

John 10:28
and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.

Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

O unregenerate sinner why do you oppose your Maker, His eternal salvation, and His Word?
 
Sep 6, 2014
7,034
5,435
113
#7
Amen it’s always Gods clear words of warning that man ignores and pretends don’t apply it happened in Eden , it happened with Moses law d it happens with Christian’s and the words of Christ

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-27‬ ‭

That’s pretty straight forward warning but plain statements like that get ignored because of ore conceived hyper grace osas garbley goop

They are in almost every epistle

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s really a sad thing to see Christian’s telling other Christian’s this stuff is untrue and assuring them they are already saved me can’t lose salvation they are being taught to ignore Gods clear and present warning meant to bring repentance and life

but that’s been mans issue all along in Eden “ don’t eat the fruit you’ll surely die “ said God

“ you won’t die trust me go ahead and eat it “ said the other guy

man rejected Gods warning and came death the. Israel and the law “ I set before you life and death choose life “ they chose death through rejecting his word again

life

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he’s saying we need to accept his word as true warnings and blessing both that will save us but if we reject his word of warning we’re only sharing half truths and omissions and making promises we have no power to fulfill

the Bible is very clear that some will believe at first and fall away and be lost later because of many factors

Some answer this with “ well it just means they never were really saved “ but it’s like the chicken and egg argument

the truth is we have hope of salvation and trust Jesus the savior to save us d so because of this we press forward and refuse complacency bread by the osas hyper grace books on the world teaching people the same thing the devil did in Eden “ Gods warnings aren’t really true “
Are you a Christian by name only?

Are you just a bench warmer who hasn't been saved yet while denying Jesus saves to the uttermost?

Do share your testimony of God saving you.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#8
"
SUPPOSE

Suppose it were true that a person once saved could be lost again.

Suppose such a person, to gain heaven, would then have to be saved
all over again.

But suppose the person in question never did get saved the second time
and, departing this life a lost man, went finally to the lake of fire—after
having once been “saved”?

In what sense, then, was he first saved? What was he saved from? Was
he saved from the penalty of sin? No, for he did not escape the lake of fire.

Was he saved from the power of sin? No, for he fell back into sin and died
a lost man. And most assuredly he was not saved from the presence
of sin. None this side of heaven have yet been saved from that.

What was he saved from then? The answer is: Nothing at all.

He may have thought he was saved. He may have felt saved. He may
have acted as though he were saved. His friends may have thought he
was saved but, in the final analysis, he was saved from nothing.

Salvation, to be anything more than a mere term, must be everlasting.
Any person who has been saved has been eternally saved. No one is
saved until he is eternally saved. Anyone who dies in a lost condition
never was saved at all.

Does this mean we must wait until after this life is over to find out? No.
We may be saved now and know it. This is evident from such passages as
I Corinthians 1:18, where the Apostle Paul refers to “us which are saved.”

How can we be saved? “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” —that’s what to do.

“And thou shalt be saved” —that’s when you get it (Acts 16:31).

And “the gift of God is Eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”—
that’s how Long it lasts (Rom. 6:23).​
"
(CR Stam)

GRACE And Peace...
Saved is the result of being delivered. Believing in the things of the Spirit is not the cause of you being delivered eternally. When a born again child of God believes in the things of the Spirit it delivers him many times as he sojourns here in this world. The un-regenerant man described in 1 Cor 2:14 cannot do anything to bring about his deliverance into eternal heaven. He thinks that believing in the things of the Spirit are foolishness unto him. The only way that the un-regenerant person can become regenerated is when he is quickened by God's sovereign grace (Eph 2:1-5).

Acts 16:31 - As I explained above, there is a deliverance here in this world, as a new born again child of God begins to understand the many truths that he has been taught from the gospel.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,205
1,609
113
Midwest
#9
Jesus begs to differ......and the Apostle Paul as well:...your argument is not with those of us who understand it is possible (because of Free Will) for man to turn his back on God, your argument is with Jesus.
Correct, our battle is "spiritual Against Wickedness in high places," where we
should "put on the FULL armour, and stand." Of course:

1) This would not be in Disagreement With The Heavenly Father, Who :

"Sees us As Eternally Righteous" ►►► In HIS SON! ◄◄◄
Else "The Death Of Christ On The Cross" is meaningless, and "He DIED In Vain!"
Seems Disagreers With The Father have little clue

About The All-SUFFICIENT BLOOD Of HIS SON!

2) Since we "Are BOUGHT With An Infinite PRICE!" we are NO LONGER the
"free will" owners of ourSELVES!!:

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that​
The Spirit Of God Dwelleth In you?​
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of The Holy​
Ghost Which Is In you, Which ye Have Of God, and ye are NOT your own?​

IF you believe you are "still YOUR OWN owner," then Please RUN to
God, For HIS:

GRACE And Peace...
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
1,410
771
113
#11
@GRACE_ambassador
Upon seeing the title of your thread but before reading your post, I thought, just suppose…

everyone understood the magnificent truth about the unmitigated power, magnitude and majesty of God’s grace. And here you are sharing it. God bless you. 🙏
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,229
1,126
113
New Zealand
#12
Jesus begs to differ......and the Apostle Paul as well:

2 Thessalonians, Chapter 2:

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Matthew, Chapter 24:

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Your argument is not with those of us who understand it is possible (because of Free Will) for man to turn his back on God, your argument is with Jesus.

Once saved, always saved is flawed theology at best, and false teaching at worst. You guys need to change your mantra to One sanctified, always sanctified....... At least then, you will be in keeping with Scripture....
Saved in the context of Matthew 24 isn't eternal salvation aka John 3:16.. but deliverance and rescue meaning.

The chapter is about overcoming trials and tribulations.. this isn't about eternal salvation.

Salvation can be about eternal salvation or daily deliverance or deliverance from trials and tribulations.

Context determines which is being addressed.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,229
1,126
113
New Zealand
#13
Amen it’s always Gods clear words of warning that man ignores and pretends don’t apply it happened in Eden , it happened with Moses law d it happens with Christian’s and the words of Christ

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-27‬ ‭

That’s pretty straight forward warning but plain statements like that get ignored because of ore conceived hyper grace osas garbley goop

They are in almost every epistle

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s really a sad thing to see Christian’s telling other Christian’s this stuff is untrue and assuring them they are already saved me can’t lose salvation they are being taught to ignore Gods clear and present warning meant to bring repentance and life

but that’s been mans issue all along in Eden “ don’t eat the fruit you’ll surely die “ said God

“ you won’t die trust me go ahead and eat it “ said the other guy

man rejected Gods warning and came death the. Israel and the law “ I set before you life and death choose life “ they chose death through rejecting his word again

life

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he’s saying we need to accept his word as true warnings and blessing both that will save us but if we reject his word of warning we’re only sharing half truths and omissions and making promises we have no power to fulfill

the Bible is very clear that some will believe at first and fall away and be lost later because of many factors

Some answer this with “ well it just means they never were really saved “ but it’s like the chicken and egg argument

the truth is we have hope of salvation and trust Jesus the savior to save us d so because of this we press forward and refuse complacency bread by the osas hyper grace books on the world teaching people the same thing the devil did in Eden “ Gods warnings aren’t really true “
Hebrews 10.. no longer a sacrifice for sin..

The context thru the chapter is animal sacrifice.. of bulls and goats.

The Hebrew believer in this is trying to mix there old ways in after having believed in Jesus. So they want to keep their system of sacrifices.

The writer of Hebrews says this cannot be done... you have been delivered from this system that cannot save you eternally and cannot put away the stain of sin.

So if they sin willfully.. there is no more animal sacrifice.. but a fiery expectation of discipline and rebuke from Jesus. Worse because they know the truth now, but yet still willfully disobey.

The judgment in this doesn't mean expectation of the destiny of hell
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,947
5,648
113
#14
Hebrews 10.. no longer a sacrifice for sin..

The context thru the chapter is animal sacrifice.. of bulls and goats.

The Hebrew believer in this is trying to mix there old ways in after having believed in Jesus. So they want to keep their system of sacrifices.

The writer of Hebrews says this cannot be done... you have been delivered from this system that cannot save you eternally and cannot put away the stain of sin.

So if they sin willfully.. there is no more animal sacrifice.. but a fiery expectation of discipline and rebuke from Jesus. Worse because they know the truth now, but yet still willfully disobey.

The judgment in this doesn't mean expectation of the destiny of hell
Hebrews 10.. no longer a sacrifice for sin..

“The context thru the chapter is animal sacrifice.. of bulls and goats”

the book is written to Hebrew Christian’s to convert them from the law of Moses to Christianity and the warning is deoectly to them

Here’s a bit of the context

“By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ( that verse you’ll accept and wuote to no end )but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; and having an high priest over the house of God; let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. ( those verses you’ll accept )

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:10, 12-14, 19-24, 26‬ ‭

but when you get to those verses all the sudden those don’t apply to Christian’s ? Even though he’s Lewiston talked of the transition of sacrifice me how Jesus sacrifice is once for all ? But if we keep willfully sinning then ……..we’ve done spite to his death and suffering is the rest of the message

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s worse now to reject Jesus blood and continue offending against it than it was under Moses law they just got out to death the New Testament is about after that eternal things.

that’s what hypergracers do though every verse they don’t like somehow “ wasn’t written to the church “ and then they explain that’s how to “rightly divide the word “ just remove anything teaching you what to do and the warnings of what will take away your inheritance offered in Christ

like this if they keep living this way Paul’s warning them not to be deceived and think it doesn’t apply to them

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He’s saying Christian’s can’t keep living that way and expect to inherit salvstion in his kingdom but he repeatedly said things just like that in his epistles certain folks just “divide “it all out and explain why it’s not for you

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:

of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Eternal Life with Jesus is the promise of the kingdom without that there is no gospel. And Paul’s repetitive point in almost every epistle is “don’t be deceived and think your not going to answer for your deeds , don’t think your actions are excused d don’t apply make sure you repent and start obeying the gospel more and more working out your own salvstion with the fear of God in your heart “

there’s a false grace that says “ nothing applies now your deeds won’t be what you have to answer for no matter what you donor don’t do your saved eternally “


And then there’s the grace and truth of God that teaches us to repent of sin and lustful things d walk in the word of Christ upright lives to honor his gift while we wait for him to return …..and we become zealous to do good d shun evil deeds

One grace teaches man to repent and live upright lives another grace teaches man there’s no rules now your saved just say grace

the Bible is pretty clear , consistent and cohesive in that it’s actually not teaching man “ there’s nothing to do , what you do isnt what you’ll be judged by your saved “

it’s actually teaching man to learn from scripture discernment and come to this conclusion of life on earth

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬

for Christian’s that sounds like this

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What we do and even every word we utter we have to answer to the lord for good or bad. We have repentance and remission of sins now we don’t have to wait to deal with our sins we can acknolwedge and repent now me have remission sin our judgement will be about the good we’ve done and not the evil we repented of but we have to answer now or then
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,554
2,176
113
#15
From the standpoint of Jesus, His sacrifice is eternal and would save the entire world if everyone repented and allowed Him to change and live in their lives.

From a human standpoint it is a daily choice to get up and give our hearts to the Lord, daily to allow His Holy Spirit to live in us and keep us in the path of salvation. Because of free will we can choose to turn away from God at any point, but when we allow Jesus/Holy Spirit to live in us then we won't want to turn away.

Sanctification is the work of a lifetime and that work is us allowing the Holy Spirit to change and live in us daily.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,229
1,126
113
New Zealand
#16
Hebrews 10.. no longer a sacrifice for sin..

“The context thru the chapter is animal sacrifice.. of bulls and goats”

the book is written to Hebrew Christian’s to convert them from the law of Moses to Christianity and the warning is deoectly to them

Here’s a bit of the context

“By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ( that verse you’ll accept and wuote to no end )but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; and having an high priest over the house of God; let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. ( those verses you’ll accept )

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:10, 12-14, 19-24, 26‬ ‭

but when you get to those verses all the sudden those don’t apply to Christian’s ? Even though he’s Lewiston talked of the transition of sacrifice me how Jesus sacrifice is once for all ? But if we keep willfully sinning then ……..we’ve done spite to his death and suffering is the rest of the message

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s worse now to reject Jesus blood and continue offending against it than it was under Moses law they just got out to death the New Testament is about after that eternal things.

that’s what hypergracers do though every verse they don’t like somehow “ wasn’t written to the church “ and then they explain that’s how to “rightly divide the word “ just remove anything teaching you what to do and the warnings of what will take away your inheritance offered in Christ

like this if they keep living this way Paul’s warning them not to be deceived and think it doesn’t apply to them

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He’s saying Christian’s can’t keep living that way and expect to inherit salvstion in his kingdom but he repeatedly said things just like that in his epistles certain folks just “divide “it all out and explain why it’s not for you

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:

of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Eternal Life with Jesus is the promise of the kingdom without that there is no gospel. And Paul’s repetitive point in almost every epistle is “don’t be deceived and think your not going to answer for your deeds , don’t think your actions are excused d don’t apply make sure you repent and start obeying the gospel more and more working out your own salvstion with the fear of God in your heart “

there’s a false grace that says “ nothing applies now your deeds won’t be what you have to answer for no matter what you donor don’t do your saved eternally “


And then there’s the grace and truth of God that teaches us to repent of sin and lustful things d walk in the word of Christ upright lives to honor his gift while we wait for him to return …..and we become zealous to do good d shun evil deeds

One grace teaches man to repent and live upright lives another grace teaches man there’s no rules now your saved just say grace

the Bible is pretty clear , consistent and cohesive in that it’s actually not teaching man “ there’s nothing to do , what you do isnt what you’ll be judged by your saved “

it’s actually teaching man to learn from scripture discernment and come to this conclusion of life on earth

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬

for Christian’s that sounds like this

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What we do and even every word we utter we have to answer to the lord for good or bad. We have repentance and remission of sins now we don’t have to wait to deal with our sins we can acknolwedge and repent now me have remission sin our judgement will be about the good we’ve done and not the evil we repented of but we have to answer now or then
I'm not 'hypergrace'

That is what I understand to Jesus saving everyone regardless of their belief in Him. No consequences of hell for believer or non believer.

But maybe that's universalism.

Anyway.. there is discipline, rebuke and admonishing for a believer so there is consequences for sin. Also God may remove a believer from living on earth.. take their life.. if they are continually sinning.

Also when a believer is saved their will be fruit from being saved. They aren't going to be just going off doing whatever because the Holy Spirit will be guiding them.

There is also a difference between someone who is characterized as an adulterer, thief, fornication etc... and a believer who falls into sin.

Some parts of the Bible refer to the adulterer etc as people who are lost, never converted. There life is characterized as being that kind of sinner.

But the main thing is Jesus gives eternal life to the believer and will rebuke, discipline and admonish them as His child. But to actually leave them? That isn't relationship.. that's a works contract.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#17
Jesus begs to differ......and the Apostle Paul as well:

2 Thessalonians, Chapter 2:

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Matthew, Chapter 24:

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Your argument is not with those of us who understand it is possible (because of Free Will) for man to turn his back on God, your argument is with Jesus.

Once saved, always saved is flawed theology at best, and false teaching at worst. You guys need to change your mantra to One sanctified, always sanctified....... At least then, you will be in keeping with Scripture....
Matt 24 explains 2nd Thess. kill off all the christians and there will be a falling away.

Western civilisation is built up upon christian and Jewish laws and concepts. But Kings and political leaders by and large are not christians, they just pay lip service to it. These will fall away. Christians may well backslide but that does not mean they will lose their salvation if they were saved.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,669
6,860
113
#18
Figure of speech or not, Jesus doesn't beg anyone.
IF you understood it to be a "figure of speech," then there really was no reason for your comment. Since you believed there was, mayhaps you should read the 17th Chapter of John.

O unregenerate sinner why do you oppose your Maker, His eternal salvation, and His Word?
Point 1: Do not tell me I am not a child of God! I checked and YOU are not qualified to determine who does or does not belong to God!

Point 2: The Scriptures you posted refer to our being taking away from Gods saving grace by an outside force. It DOES NOT refer to our free will to choose! Huge difference there, and, for some reason, there are folks who simply do not understand the difference between being "lost" and "choosing to turn away." Sad, really.......
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,669
6,860
113
#19
Matt 24 explains 2nd Thess. kill off all the christians and there will be a falling away.

Western civilisation is built up upon christian and Jewish laws and concepts. But Kings and political leaders by and large are not christians, they just pay lip service to it. These will fall away. Christians may well backslide but that does not mean they will lose their salvation if they were saved.
Matthew, Chapter 24:

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Don't know how you read this, but it is fairly simple to understand IMO.
There will be those believers who (because of iniquity) shall turn from their first love.......turn their backs on God......BUT those that endure unto the end shall be saved. Both made a choice using the "free will" given to them by God. John 3:16 believeth and the above "endure" are the same "belief." Believing in Jesus IS NOT a one time thing! It is an ongoing, daily, life long believing which "endures" all trials, temptations and iniquities unto salvation.

For people to deny free will is against Scripture from both the Old and New Testaments....... To believe that "once saved," God takes away the gift of free will He gave us is nothing more than "Calvin lite."

IF God did not want a people of robots blindly following His will, with no choice in that following, He could have easily created such. He did not. He created a people who had the ability to "CHOOSE" to love Him/or not.

Once saved always saved is flawed teaching at best, and dangerous ideology at worst, for it surely misleads the immature believer. Those who are not yet mature enough to move from milk to the meat of the Word.

Those who believe OSAS would do well to change that first "S" to Sanctified. THEN they have a very good argument to put forth, and a teaching that mirrors Scripture. Even then, the Sanctified believer STILL has a "choice." But they have grown so strong in their faith, and their love of God has grown so deep that they could never imagine a life apart from Him; and, given this, they "CHOOSE" to remain/endure until the end...........

Free will is Biblical Truth. Those who say different have yet to be sanctified by the Holy Spirit IMO......
 
Sep 6, 2014
7,034
5,435
113
#20
Figure of speech or not, Jesus doesn't beg anyone.

John 10:28
and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.

Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

O unregenerate sinner why do you oppose your Maker, His eternal salvation, and His Word?
IF you understood it to be a "figure of speech," then there really was no reason for your comment. Since you believed there was, mayhaps you should read the 17th Chapter of John.
Figure of speech or not, Jesus doesn't beg anyone.

The Gracious prayers of Jesus are found in John 17.
Perhaps you should read it yourself.

John 17:2
As thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given Him.

O unregenerate sinner, God's Word refutes you!
Point 1: Do not tell me I am not a child of God! I checked and YOU are not qualified to determine who does or does not belong to God!
Your words prove you.

1 Corinthians 2:14-16
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

O unregenerate sinner, God's Word refutes you!

Point 2: The Scriptures you posted refer to our being taking away from Gods saving grace by an outside force. It DOES NOT refer to our free will to choose! Huge difference there, and, for some reason, there are folks who simply do not understand the difference between being "lost" and "choosing to turn away." Sad, really.......
Nonsense.
Perhaps you should read Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2.
God saves. He does the calling, He does the saving.

Proverbs 15:32
He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.

Romans 2:5

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

O unregenerate sinner why do you oppose your Maker, His eternal salvation, and His Word?