Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

FreeGrace2 said:
and God sends them to the proper waiting area.

The 3rd heaven IS a waiting place for the new earth, which is the eternal state. All believers who die before the Tribulation go to the 3rd heaven. All unbelievers go to "torments" in Hades, awaiting the GWT judgement and being cast into the lake of fire.

What did you think about souls who die and where they go?
What I gave you is known as "common knowledge". Are you lacking somewhat in that area?

Do you not believe that the 3rd heaven (where God the Father resides) is where souls of believers go when they die? Paul made the point about being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. I thought every believer was aware of this.

2 Cor 5-
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

Luke 16 is about Torments and where the souls of the unsaved go.

Paradise is the same place as Abraham's bosom. That's where the thief next to Jesus went when he died. But after the resurrection, Jesus took ALL OT saints to heaven.

Done.

I never said anything about souls dying. Unsaved people die, and THEIR soul goes to torments, awaiting the LOF.

FreeGrace2 said:
The words 'raised up' refers to dead physical bodies being resurrected UP out of the ground to be joined to the soil, who will be with Jesus as He ends the Trip and Armageddon and sets up His Millennial reign on earth.
No need to shout. I can hear you just fine. I'm going to adjust the rest of your loud post.

[/QUOTE]It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:

and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy,

we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

NO terra firma in the heaven[/QUOTE]
I don't care about "terra firms" in heaven. Why did you bring it up?

The discussion was about bodies and souls.

FreeGrace2 said:
I see just fine. What doesn't exist are any verses describing Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.
Nothing here about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

None of the verses say that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven.

Apparently you aren't seeing so well.

The Bible does NOT say anything about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

FreeGrace2 said:
Nope. These saints are the souls. They are awaiting their resurrected body.
If true, you SHOULD HAVE provided "what is written". But seeing that you didn't, why should I believe your opinion?

FreeGrace2 said:
Not in 1 Cor 15:23. Give me context for your phrase and I will respond.
You have a very narrow minded view of Scripture. The words "those who belong to Him" ABSOLUTELY mean all saved people.

I flatly reject soul sleep. The Bible NEVER says that souls sleep.

So what? The promise of salvation was given IN the garden of Eden, WAY BEFORE Jesus even came to earth. So WHEN Jesus died for sins is immaterial. In the OT, people looked FORWARD to the cross. In the NT, people look BACKWARD to the cross.

How could you NOT know that?

There is NOTHING in 1 Cor 15:23 about "them that slept". I think you are simply conflating verses.

"those who belong to Jesus" means SAVED people. ALL of them. Or Scripture would have clarified.

FreeGrace2 said:
I have no idea what you are talking about. There is ONE resurrection, which will be "when He comes" at the 2nd Advent.
I'm getting tired of these circles you keep going around in.

If you are convinced there are more than one resurrection of the saved, then quote each verse that describes the different ones. And include the timeline for each one.

I don't think you can do that. I'm very familiar with the NT.

FreeGrace2 said:
There are NO verses describing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
The words you bolded say NOTHING about a trip to heaven. It is about the FACT that the living believers will be glorified when He comes.

What, exactly, has the wife "made herself ready" for? The marriage of the Lamb, which "is come". Means is here NOW. The marriage is about to take place. Proven by the very words.

Since Rev 19 also includes Jesus return to earth at the Second Advent, please why John would write this:

9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

Why would he bring up what supposedly occurrred 7 years prior? It makes no sense.

There is NOTHING about anyone being "raptured" or even "changed" at that time. You are simply reading INTO the passage what you WANT it to say.

2 fails.

...

Aha, another caveat...they were resurrected, but didn't receive glorified bodies. With what bodies were they walking around?

Why would he bring up something that hasn't happened yet? It makes no sense.

Anyone who raised back to human life before Jesus received His resurrection glorified immortal body got their physical mortal body back. Why would anyone think that people who came back to life before Jesus would get a resurrection glorified immortal body?

Acts 26:23 PREVENTS such an opinion.

that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

That's why Paul used "firstfruits" in 1 Cor 15:23.

NO ONE received a glorified immortal body BEFORE Jesus did. No one.

Those I referred to were raised after Christ's resurrection.

FreeGrace2 said:
Why would he bring up what supposedly occurrred 7 years prior? It makes no sense.
Of course it does, especially because John was REFERRING to what was coming. He was telling us what was COMING next.

Sorry, but you didn't make that clear. I need full context in order to understand questions.

Many were raised from the graves at Jesus' crucifixion, and Jesus and His disciples also raised a number of people during His earthly ministry.

So, what people are you referring to?

OK, I thought you were talking PRE TRIB. I'm Sorry. Yes, the alive and remaining are changed when Christ returns and are gathered to Him to rule and reign for the Millennium.

You mean the 'common knowledge' that will cause the FALLING AWAY, giving Satan the ability to deceive WHOLE world, whereby time had to be shortened or else NO FLESH would be saved?

YES, that is the COMMON KNOWLEDGE I have a problem with.


HENCE THE REQUEST FOR SCRIPTURE and if you possibly could do it in a more CHRISTIAN way, it would be really appreciated. If you have all this knowledge you claim to have, YOU CERTAINLY SHOULD be walking a lot more CHRIST like than you are. Just saying your attitude doesn't come across much different from that of a heathen quite often, with all the little unnecessary jabs and stabs along the way. Doesn't reflect well on the Lord.

So your "I THOUGHT EVERY BELIEVER..." is a part of the problem. MANY WILL BE DECEIVED. That means if YOU believe like EVERYONE ELSE, you are in trouble. Any seeing or hearing that?

SO AGAIN, PLEASE GIVE ME CHAPTER AND VERSE, if indeed it does exist and it isn't just more DOCTRINES OF MAN put forth as GODS TRUTH. If not, how about just admitting it without trying to make ME the problem?

Matthew 27:
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

FINALLY. Another resurrection is acknowledged.

FOR JESUS TO HAVE TAKEN ALL THE OT SAINTS TO HEAVEN,

THEY HAD TO BE RESURRECTED out from the dead.

And what are we told about how the dead are raised up? and with what body are we told they rise up in?

WE know the body THEY SOWED WAS NOT the body they were raised up in, but a bare grain, OF THAT BODY that was sown was maybe of wheat, or of some other grain

But we know God gave them bodies as it pleased Him, and every one of them had a body.

We know their bodies may have been sown in corruption, but they were raised in incorruption

And they were sown in dishonour but raised in glory sown in weakness and raised in power

We know they had a natural body like we have now and we know they were raised up in their spiritual one. We know there are two bodies. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

SO WE KNOW FOR SURE THAT no one is coming back 'without a body' to retrieve some dust of the earth.

And we can be POSITIVE that GOD WOULDN'T EVER LET THAT HAPPEN BECAUSE GOD HIMSELF REPENTED OF PUTTING MAN IN AN EARTH FLESH BODY.




All that is RAISED UP when Christ returns are THE DEAD. The SPIRITUALLY dead. You know


Luke 9:57 And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.

Luke 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Luke 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Luke 9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

THAT WOULD BE LIKE DYING, EVEN THOUGH YOU HAD ALREADY DIED AND ROSE UP A NEW CREATURE HAVING BEEN BORN AGAIN, BORN FROM ABOVE, AND BEING AMONGST THE DEAD, AFTER HAVING RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION (YET SOMEHOW NOT BEEN SAVED), BEING COUNTED AMONST THE DEAD, INSTEAD OF AMONGST THOSE FOLLOWING HIM FROM HEAVEN, ABLE TO RISE WITH THE DEAD AT HIS RETURN, INSTEAD OF NEVER DYING

TALK about looking back or falling back or drawing back.

Hebrews 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

I gave you verses. It's up to you to believe them or not.