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Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
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What condition did you meet for God to love you?
God's love is extended to us IN CHRIST.

That's the condition that God himself set in order to be a recipient of the same.

If you don't understand that, then I see no point in us going back and forth on this topic anymore.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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That's the condition that God himself set in order to be a recipient of the same.
Accepting His death on our behalf is the condition for salvation.

Why are you incapable of separating the two? :unsure:
:confused:
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
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Who willingly died on the cross as propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
Yes, but only those who willingly receive Christ are recipients of the same.

Surely, you must know this.
Accepting His death on our behalf is the condition for salvation.

Why are you incapable of separating the two? :unsure::confused:
Because they're inseparable.

In essence, God loves Christ. He is his beloved Son in whom he is well-pleased. IF we're found to be "in Christ", THEN we're "accepted in the beloved" (Eph. 1:6) or accepted in Christ.

Anyhow, believe it or not (believe it), I understand the point that you're trying to make.

You're saying that none of us did anything to make God send Jesus, but that God did it because he loves the world, and that is correct. However, and this is BIG HOWEVER, God himself attached a condition to us being recipients of the very love that he sent, and that condition is that we need to embrace Christ and ultimately be found in him.

Surely, you understand what I'm saying, right?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,997
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Yes, but only those who willingly receive Christ are recipients of the same.
You are saying God does not love sinners. Which you were when God extended
mercy and grace to you, circumcising your heart because He loved you. He loved
you before you accepted His offer of salvation. God's love moves people to accept.


Nobody has ever done anything to deserve God's love.

You keep conflating His love with the condition for salvation.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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I am glad you seem to be beginning to understand that salvation is conditional.

I did think you already knew that.
I guess I'm not understanding how you separate the unconditional love of God from His 'conditional' salvation espexially in the light of Jn 3:16.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,997
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I guess I'm not understanding how you separate the unconditional love of God from His 'conditional' salvation espexially in the light of Jn 3:16.
Jesus died for your sins whether you accept and believe or not.

That is unconditional love.
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
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Thank you :) That was very informative! :D

Still, I really do not care for the ESV...

My usual go-to is Berean Study Bible first, and then NIV and/or KJV :geek:
Actually, it was a bunch of uneducated nonsense that he just spewed, so I wouldn't be thanking him if I were you.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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You say ‘for us’ but what about the non elect? Did he choose and predestined them as sons? (Eph 1:5)
It depends on how you interpret the scripture.

Either God ordained that anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be the elect. Or God elected certain individuals purely as an act of His will and these call on the name of the Lord only.

This difficulty in the understanding of God's will is further complicated. In that we do know, in fact, that Jeremiah, John the Baptist, Paul and the apostles, were all predestined. They were chosen, they were elect, before the foundation of the world.

Perhaps the following verse may apply.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

No one can be absolutely sure which paradigm of God's will is the correct paradigm. Both interpretations can be supported by the scripture.

Yet, we should concern ourselves with the love of the Lord and others. Knowing full well that the mechanics of God's election has no bearing, on what we have been commanded to do.
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
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Actually, it was a bunch of uneducated nonsense that he just spewed, so I wouldn't be thanking him if I were you.
Here is a brief introduction to the subject.

3439 monogenḗs (from 3411 /misthōtós, "one-and-only" and 1085 /génos, "offspring, stock") – properly, one-and-only; "one of a kind" – literally, "one (monos) of a class, genos" (the only of its kind).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3439: μονογενής

μονογενής, μονογενές (μόνος and γένος) (Cicero,unigena; Vulg. (in Lukeunicus, elsewhere) and in ecclesiastical writingsunigenitus), single of its kind, only (A. V. only-begotten); used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents), Hesiod theog. 426, 448; Herodotus 7, 221; Plato, Critias 113 d.; Josephus, Antiquities 1, 13, 1; 2, 7, 4; μονογενές τέκνον πατρί, Aeschylus Ag. 898. So in the Scriptures: Hebrews 11:17; μονογενῆ εἶναι τίνι (to be one's only son or daughter), Judges 11:34; Tobit 3:15; Luke 7:12; Luke 8:42; Luke 9:38; (cf. Westcott on Epistles of John, pp. 162ff). Hence, the expression ὁ μονογενής υἱός τοῦ Θεοῦ and υἱός τοῦ Θεοῦ ὁ μονογονης, John 3:16, 18; John 1:18 (see below); 1 John 4:9; μονογενής παρά πατρός, John 1:14 (some take this generally, owing to the omission of the article (cf. Green, pp. 48f)), used of Christ, denotes the only son of God or one who in the sense in which he himself is the son of God has no brethren. He is so spoken of by John not because ὁ λόγος which was ἐνσαρκωθεις in him was eternally generated by God the Father (the orthodox interpretation), or came forth from the being of God just before the beginning of the world (Subordinationism), but because by the incarnation (ἐνσαρκωσις) of the λόγος in him he is of nature or essentially Son of God, and so in a very different sense from that in which men are made by him τέκνα τοῦ Θεοῦ (John 1:13). For since in the writings of John the title ὁ ἱυος τοῦ Θεοῦ is given only to the historic Christ so called, neither the Logos alone, nor Jesus alone, but ὁ λόγος ὁ ἐνσαρκωθεις or Jesus through the λόγος united with God, is ὁ μονογενής υἱός τοῦ Θεοῦ. The reading μονογενής Θεός (without the article before μονογενής) in John 1:18, — which is supported by no inconsiderable weight of ancient testimony, received into the text by Tregelles, and Westcott and Hort, defended with much learning by Dr. Hort ("On μονογενής Θεός in Scripture and Tradition in his Two Dissertations" Camb. and Lond. 1876), and seems not improbable to Harnack (in the Theol. Lit.-Zeit. for 1876, p. 541ff) (and Weiss (in Meyer 6te Aufl. at the passage)), but is foreign to John's mode of thought and speech (John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9), dissonant and harsh — appears to owe its origin to a dogmatic zeal which broke out soon after the early days of the church; (see articles on the reading by Prof. Abbot in the Bib. Sacr. for Oct. 1861 and in the Unitarian Rev. for June 1875 (in the latter copious references to other discussions of the same passage are given); see also Prof. Drummond in the Theol. Rev. for Oct. 1871). Further, see Grimm, Exgt. Hdbch. on Sap., p. 152f; (Westcott as above).

Monogenes has two primary definitions, "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship" and "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind".[1] Thus monogenēs (μονογενής) may be used both as an adjective monogenēs pais, meaning unique and special.[2] Its Greek meaning is often applied to mean "one of a kind, one and only". Monogenēs may be used as an adjective. For example, monogenēs pais means only child, only legitimate child or special child. Monogenēs may also be used on its own as a noun. For example, o monogenēs means "the only one", or "the only legitimate child".[3]
The word is used in Hebrews 11:17-19 to describe Isaac, the son of Abraham. However, Isaac was not the only-begotten son of Abraham, but was the chosen, having special virtue.[4] Thus Isaac was "the only legitimate child" of Abraham. That is, Isaac was the only son of Abraham that God acknowledged as the legitimate son of the covenant. It does not mean that Isaac was not literally "begotten" of Abraham, for he indeed was, but that he alone was acknowledged as the son that God had promised.
The term is notable outside normal Greek usage in two special areas: in the cosmology of Plato and in the Gospel of John. As concerns the use by Plato there is broad academic consensus, generally following the understanding of the philosopher Proclus (412–485 AD).
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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Just the concept ‘God predestined all’ (to eternal life) is a bit nonsensical to me, as Scripture shows many perishing.
It is beyond any debate that the nation of Israel was the chosen nation. The Gentile nations were the non-elect nations. Yet over time, the nation of Israel became hardened and then became the non-elect, no longer chosen of God.

This complex relationship between God's predestination (of Christ) and the observed outcome of His will. To some extent is difficult to comprehend. God definitely chose Israel but Israel failed. Therefore, God's sovereign will may invite some level of human obedience within that sovereign will.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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"Photo" might be the wrong word. I was talking about the image that you created and posted here.

Look, I don't mean you any disrespect at all. I get that you're trying to use your artistic talents to bring glory and honor to God, and I've been doing the same for years with my own t-shirt designs. That said, I'd strongly urge you to keep away from posting images of "Jesus" that are pretty much idolatrous. I'm sorry, but I cannot think of a softer word to describe it.

Speaking of t-shirts, years ago, I had a "Christian" t-shirt (I didn't design that one) that depicted Mary and the baby Jesus on it. Well, I happened to be wearing that shirt one day while evangelizing on the streets of New York City. My friend and I were preaching Christ to a group of Muslim men, and then one of them said to me, after pointing at the depiction of "Jesus" on my t-shirt, "I'm not interested in the white man's God".

While I'm on this topic, and, again, I mean you no disrespect whatsoever, I would also advise you to stop depicting angels as females in your artwork because they're all males in scripture.

Hopefully, you'll consider what I'm saying before the Lord.
Our gender is a temporal state. God is not gender specific. We will soon no longer have a gender and that is for eternity.

The Jews are not white men, the gospel originated in Israel and not amongst white men.

This Muslim fellow should have realized that Abraham was the father of us all. Abraham is the father in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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I'm not confusing anything.

I perfectly understand that God was motivated by love in sending Christ, BUT in order for anyone to be a recipient of the same, there are conditions which need to be met. With such being the case, how can you not see that God's love is conditional?

Ironically, while trying to defend your assertion that God's love is unconditional and something separate from salvation which has conditions, you keep quoting verses about salvation.

Anyhow, I'm well aware of God's love, but I received it IN CHRIST.

THAT was the condition.

If we haven't met the conditions which place us IN CHRIST, then we're children of wrath by nature, and God's wrath abides upon us.
To receive love you must receive the Holy Spirit, love is a free gift and not conditional.

To receive the Holy Spirit you must believe in Jesus, the only conditional aspect of salvation.

To believe in Jesus you must hear the gospel, not conditional again.

To apply love to God and others, is a conditional requirement placed on us.

God's love is always unconditional and unlimited, but man's response is deeply conditional.
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
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Our gender is a temporal state. God is not gender specific. We will soon no longer have a gender and that is for eternity.

The Jews are not white men, the gospel originated in Israel and not amongst white men.

This Muslim fellow should have realized that Abraham was the father of us all. Abraham is the father in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
I wasn't implying that Jews are "white".

Instead, I was saying that we shouldn't be posting images of "Jesus".

I only mentioned the "white" part because that is how he was depicted on that shirt.

Incidentally, I threw that shirt in the trash when I got home that night.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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christianchat.com
"He sure doesn't use fear"?

What Bible are you reading?

Just off the top of my head, I can think of MULTIPLE INSTANCES where Jesus, the apostles, or the prophets used fear as a motivator while warning their hearers about hell-fire and damnation.

For example, Jesus certainly had high praises for his forerunner, John the Baptist, and John preached the following:

Matthew chapter 3

[1] In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
[2] And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
[3] For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
[4] And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
[5] Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
[6] And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
[7] But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
[8] Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
[9] And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
[10] And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
[12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

John the Baptist, as he was "preparing the way of the Lord" (vs. 3), told people to "repent" (vs. 2), and to "bring forth fruits worthy of repentance" (vs. 8). He also told them that Jesus would "hew down every tree which wasn't bringing forth good fruit, and cast it into the fire" (vs. 10) or "burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (vs. 12) while "warning the people to flee from the wrath to come" (vs. 7).

Perhaps your Bible says that John told these people "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" or "Smile, Jesus loves you"?

Jesus preached the same thing that John preached;

Matthew chapter 7

[17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

And what about Jesus' parables?

From the parable of the wheat and the tares:

Matthew 13;30

[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Here's his own interpretation of the same:

[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

That certainly sounds like hell-fire preaching to me, and I could easily cite many more examples from Jesus' own lips.

You don't think that Jesus used fear as a motivator?

What about this?

Luke chapter 12

[1] In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
[2] For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
[3] Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.
[4] And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
[5] But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Do you fear the one who has power to cast into hell?

I do.

As I've said here (and elsewhere) many times in the past, the number one problem in BOTH the world AND the church (you can hardly distinguish between the two in many/most cases) is the lack of the fear of God.

And what about Jesus' commission to his apostles?

Have you never read the following?

Mark chapter 6

[7] And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
[8] And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
[9] But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
[10] And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
[11] And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
[12] And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

The apostle preached REPENTANCE, and they shook the dust off their feet as a testimony against those who refused the same while understanding that it would be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha on the day of judgment than for those who refused the gospel. In case you haven't heard, Sodom and Gomorrha were wiped out by FIRE AND BRIMSTONE.

How about Paul?

What was his motivator?

II Corinthians chapter 5

[10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
[11] Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

How about you?

Do you know THE TERROR OF THE LORD?

If you're like most professing "Christians", including quite a number of those on this website, then you most certainly don't.

Anyhow, to the OP's question, the apostles preached exactly what Jesus told them to preach:

Luke chapter 24

[46] And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
[47] And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
[48] And ye are witnesses of these things.

Of course, Paul preached the same thing:

Acts chapter 26

[12] Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
[13] At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
[14] And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
[15] And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
[16] But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
[17] Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
[18] To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
[19] Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
[20] But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

I'll stick with the likes of John the Baptist, Jesus, and the apostles.
Twit

You need to apply all the good and pleasant things Jesus and the apostles said to those who were coming to Jesus and all the dark and threatening words they used to those who were coming against them.

He doesn't say the same things to the wheat as He does to the tares. The good tree has a different prognosis to the evil tree.

The baptiser doesn't rebuke and threaten those came to be baptised, he rebukes the Pharisees who came but were not baptised. It was those who turned the apostles away who will find it more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorra.
They were to go with the message of PEACE, "peace be upon this house"

We are to go with the GOOD NEWS to EVERY creature, we are not to go preaching what will happen to those who reject it. Tell people the GOOD NEWS, that is what will cause people to come.

Have you ever counted up the number of times Jesus comes saying "fear not" ?

You address only the goats and you frighten away the sheep.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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christianchat.com
God's love is extended to us IN CHRIST.

That's the condition that God himself set in order to be a recipient of the same.

If you don't understand that, then I see no point in us going back and forth on this topic anymore.
That is not true, God's love and mercy is extended to all men in this grace epoch. Christ has atoned for the sins of the whole world.

... not all men receive it. And only one man in 10 returns to give thanks.

All society has been lifted up by the gospel, the sun has shone on good and evil alike.
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
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Nice.

I'll address the rest of your post when I get home from work today, but be sure to repent before God for your lack of self-control and disrespect before then.

You should be ashamed of yourself, but since you have no fear of God, I doubt that you are.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
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London
christianchat.com
Nice.

I'll address the rest of your post when I get home from work today, but be sure to repent before God for your lack of self-control and disrespect before then.

You should be ashamed of yourself, but since you have no fear of God, I doubt that you are.
I am sorry
 
Nov 26, 2021
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India
I firmly believe that no one is saved without explicit faith in Christ. And yet, it is tragic to hear that nearly 2 BILLION PEOPLE - nearly 25% of the World's Population - have still not heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, nearly 2000 years later. This burden, more than any other, imho, should rest on the heart of every man and woman of God. That somehow we must pray and work for them to have a chance to be saved.

I believe the Lord is not dependent on us, but He does command us to go everywhere and preach His Name to all Nations. Sometimes, we hear reports - especially in the Muslim world, where missionaries often cannot go - that the Lord appeared to some in a dream, and led them to faith in Him. We must pray that God opens up a path for missionaries everywhere to work together to bring all to Christ.

Time is short, and rapidly passing. 1000s upon thousands die every day. At the least, we should pray and fast for souls to be saved. When possible, when the Lord places others who don't know Christ in our path, we must witness to them that there is Salvation in His Name.

What I know for sure is that God died for all and gives all people sufficient grace to be saved. If they co-operate, they will come to Christ.

We see the example of Cornelius in Acts 10. Even before becoming a Christian, he used to pray, fast and give alms; because God is so Good and Merciful to all, in time, God led him to the Truth. First, an Angel appeared to him, and then St. Peter was sent to preach Christ.

Acts 10:

"30 So Cornelius said, “Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, 31 and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your alms are remembered in the sight of God ... 34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him ... 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

God Bless.