Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

Edify · Jun 6, 2022

2 Peter 3:9
English Standard Version
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

The only reason that many perish is because they make the wrong choice.

Matthew 7:13
English Standard Version
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

We choose which gate we enter.

XavierJesusLovesIndia · Jun 6, 2022

Gen 4:

"6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

See how the Lord told Cain that sin was trying to entice and tempt Cain by his own evil desires. The Lord told him, he can and should strive to overcome sin, and that he could do so, with the Lord's Grace. He didn't say, "you have no ability to rule over it".

Again, the Lord Jesus promised the Kingdom to those who overcome in the Book of Revelation: do read all 7 amazing promises here: [Edit, forgot the link: https://activechristianity.org/7-extraordinary-promises-for-those-who-overcome]

"The 1st extraordinary promise: The tree of life
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” Revelation 2:7. ...

The 4th extraordinary promise: Power over the nations, a rod of iron, and the morning star
“And he who overcomes and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations – ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’ – as I also have received from my Father; and I will give him the morning star.” Revelation 2:26-28."

The 7th extraordinary promise: Sit with Me on My Throne
“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” Revelation 3:21.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 6, 2022

Evmur said:

Right! "yes but"

Here's the problem. Calvinists believe that unregenerate man CANNOT believe the gospel unless he is regenerated first.

Those who disagree say that man is free to believe the gospel. It seems the Calvinists reply back with "man doesn't have free will". I'll bet the Calvinists were the first to use that term, and then shoot it down by all their "examples".

The truth is that unbelievers are FREE to believe or reject whatever. The fact that the Bible speaks of people REFUSING to believe twice and REFUSING to repent twice proves that man is free to choose to believe OR reject.

So let's just stop using the term "free will". Man doesn't "will himself" anyway in order to believe. So it's a red herring.

Believing something is a choice. When we hear a statement from someone, we either "take them at their word", or we don't.

The issue in the gospel is freedom of choice. Nothing more or less.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 6, 2022

Evmur said:

You are totally missing Paul's words. So let's go over it again.

Romans 6-
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.

If you don't see a choice being made in the bolded words above, you just aren't looking. When you are told to "stop", you have the choice to either do it or not do it.

16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Again, the bolded words in v.16 PROVES that a person chooses to whom they "offer themselves" to be slaves.

So focus on the action words of "offer yourselves", "do not let", "do not offer yourselves" rather than the nouns like "slaves".

btw, does a slave owner control the thinking of the slave? yes or no?

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 6, 2022

Evmur said:

This is amazing. In fact, I think that I'll add this as the definition in my home-made, Biblical dictionary (with you receiving credit).

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 6, 2022

Evmur said:

Absolutely. The point is so incredibly simple to understand. This is the kind of thing that drove Moses to near insanity.

This is a repeat:

2 Timothy 2:26 NKJV - ". . . and [that] they may come to their senses [and escape] the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to [do] his will."

This is an utter, Biblical fact: Until a person is released from the captivity of the Devil, it is impossible that they be under their own guidance and direction. Hence, they are "captives" of the Devil. Do we NOT understand Egypt? Do we not understand Babylon? Do we not understand these principles?

Leviticus 26:13 NLT - "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt so you would no longer be their slaves. I broke the yoke of slavery from your neck so you can walk with your heads held high."

And while I am amazed that fed "christians" understand their own Bible, I am reminded that I was once one of those very same lost "christians." I was one who believed that I was saved when in reality, I was one whom the Lord Jesus Christ did not Know (note the capital "K").

Magenta · Jun 6, 2022

Evmur said:

"yes but"

Choice is not freewill.

Choice is an instrument of government, The One who gives the choice and who controls the outcome of whatever choice is made, He it is who is the only one with free sovereign will.

If they had freewill they could devise an option of their own, they could simply fold their arms and refuse to make a choice at all, no no they must choose, they have no choice but to choose between the options given to them.

And the options were serve Me, in which case they will be doing God's will, or perish in which case they will have no more will at all.

And

You are overlooking Big Chief SittingBull and all the generations of injuns who preceded him. They didn't have a choice did they. The Egyptians didn't have a choice, no only the Jews had the choice because God of His own freewill set the choice before them.

This is important to your second point for being dead in trespasses and sins means we are dead to God. We simply don't have the ability to obey or even hear Him unless He first takes the initiative. He must give us ears to hear Him and eyes to see Him.

Of a truth the new birth comes first, God brings us ALIVE when we hear the gospel, being made alive we then respond to Him with faith which also is imparted to us.

God doesn't accept our freewill He over rules it and subjugates it to His own.

I fully grant to you that we can withold that from Him, even after we is saved we can backslide to the position of following our own will but then during that time we are saved but we are dead to God and totally unable to do Hill will. And backsliding to follow our own will is not free, it will bring us into all kinds of bondage and sorrow. WHY? because our will is in bondage, The will of our flesh and our minds are set at emnity with God.

Our will is our very selves which we must present to God a living sacrifice in order to be transformed by the renewing of our minds that we might know what is that good and perfect will of God.

Thank you for that most excellent explanation, Billy!

Co-incidentally (or not LOL), I have been working on getting this panel ready to post in my Scripture Art thread

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 6, 2022

Magenta said:

As the text says, we are 'being" built by God Himself, and this transcends the idea that we are building ourselves. If our Transformed thoughts and ideas were of our own, we wouldn't need to be "built" by God. But as the text indicates, we are "being" Transformed outside of our own selves.

What does this "being" built by God actually mean? Paul tells us from Romans 12:2:

Romans 12:2 NKJV - "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."

We are incapable of Transforming our own minds . . . this is the Work of our Triune God.

So once again, we find a constraint upon this idea of "free will." We cannot obtain these new thoughts on our own. We must be Transformed by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is no other way.

NET "The customer will no longer pay the seller while both parties are alive, for the vision against their whole crowd will not be revoked. Each person, for his iniquity, will fail to preserve his life."

Polar · Jun 6, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

People need to feel secure. All of us do. A little different when you have not had the security and balance that creates that feeling but instead have been hung out to dry so to speak. Much anger is actually fear based and the 'how dare yous' relate that a personal button has been pressed. I have been on several different forums over the years and this is not my first tour of this one.

2ndTimothyGroup said:

Well say that after the fact and that comment will carry more weight, but thanks.

I am sure some folks think I just bring a big ole stank LOL! I think, though, that the hamster wheel will just have to circle around without me from now on. However, I am happy to discuss and offer what I see.

One thing I have noticed and it is true in my own case, is that verses are offered of 'proof' of this or that and used as 'so there's' and I have yet to see that make any sort of dent.

It is better to say 'I don't know' or 'I am not sure' then a volley of 'you don't know what you're talking about' and so on. I know what I believe and I am prepared to talk about it, but it's not a hill to die on. It's not a salvic issue. However, it certainly is a very important topic as it can change how a person sees things or believes. We act according to what we actually believe. For example, if I think I have all the answers, I am more likely to be either rude, intolerant or annoyingly condescending if I am using this platform to express my beliefs. A captive audience if you will.

I could go on, but I will then be expressing personality traits, which, very much play into how people act and respond on this forum. It would be enlightening to some and make some even more angry though. This is not a level 'playing' field by any means and I think that should be remembered; some people just do not have any other outlet for expression and they take things beyond and apply everything personally which never ends well.

One thing must be understood though as least for myself. The Bible must be understood and studied as a whole and not a topical handbook that we seize upon to bolster our own beliefs.

Polar · Jun 6, 2022

Evmur said:

You are really not making the case you think you are. I understand you are firmly embedded in those thoughts. That's fine but I don't follow what you are saying other than you do not believe mankind has free will. Or can choose which would sadly indicates no decision making abilities.

Then I must be here by design and yet I will not agree with you. Perhaps God is trying to show you something different through me? You did open that door.

Talk later or read my posts to the op that I hope tack on here sometime.

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 6, 2022

Polar said:

This is such a great way to end all that you've written above. I couldn't agree more. In fact, once I figured out that it is critical to read and study the Bible in a timeline, chronological order, is that it brings the Bible into context as a WHOLE. In fact, I've been cataloging Scripture in an Excel Spreadsheet that contains WELL over 1,000 categories and yet another layer of abilities to locate and select idea's/concepts. I used to consider myself a "master" of sorts, regarding limited concepts such as Eternal Security. Incredibly, during those days, I hadn't even read the Old Testament, even if out of timeline order. I had no clue as to what I believed and why I believed it, but gosh, I owned a book that dealt with knowing what we believe and why. Just unbelievable. It amazes me how lost I was (though I would have told you that I was absolutely "found." No, I was one of those whom if Jesus had seen me, He would have said, "Get away from me, for I do not know you." I would have been shocked to the core.

So yes, I agree that we must not be masters of individual topics, but attempt to understand the Bible as a whole. Once I began to see the Bible in this way, my entire life has changed.

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 6, 2022

Please consider:

We all recognize and acknowledge that the Bible is filled with "choose" and "obey." It is filled with explanations of God's disappointment and even anger over our refusal to "choose" Him. We even read that God was disappointed and regretted ever creating humans. I acknowledge all of these things.

There is no "but . . . "

Instead, I ALSO acknowledge the plethora of passages that shows that God is in control. I also acknowledge that God hardens people's hearts. I also acknowledge that God placed Israel into a "deep sleep" which Paul expounds upon as he quoted Isaiah.

Isaiah 29:10 NKJV - "For the LORD has poured out on you The spirit of deep sleep, And has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, [namely], the seers."

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. 8 As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

I refuse to deny any Scripture. I will not deny those passages where God tells us that we've got to choose Him, and I refuse to deny the Scriptures that show that we are under a Curse, and thus cannot obey and/or choose. I refuse to deny the passages above that conclusively show that the Jews remain under the Veil of Moses as they try to follow the old Law.

Instead, I try to rectify this issue. How do I resolve the fact that we are to choose, but that we cannot upon our own? This is what I am offering to each person at this forum. I do not deny any passages, but accept them all and am doing my best to create harmony through them all.

There IS an answer for these things, and this is why Paul referred to the Gospel as the Mysterious Plan of God. Read Ephesians chapters 2 and 3 for discussion on this Plan. It remains a Mystery to this day, though Paul unravels it. And he does so in a cryptic way, thus it remains Mysterious though unpacked.

Truly, the Bible was written by God. No human could ever come up with such an unbelievable set of writings that are all interrelated. They seem to contradict one another, but if we look below and underneath the words at face value, we find that there is so much more to what only the nominal reader is capable of identifying. Our Bible is so incredible.

Polar · Jun 6, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

Exactly! Notice the arguing comes in bits and pieces. Another thought are/is the absolutes that are presented. Kind of a my way or the highway attitude. I do not believe we can take one example and make a case out of to be broadly applied to a constant or absolute. An example, for me, would be to consider what some state as proof of God deciding who is and who is not saved. They might cite Paul's conversion or the prophet Jonah as having no choice. I don't think we can not acknowledge that Jonah had a relationship with God, he was a prophet of God and as such, was under obligation to state the truth even if unwelcomed. As for Paul, much of the NT was written by him and within those letters I do not think we can find him stating that we are all pre-destined without also noticing that he consistently seems to state otherwise at the same time.

Please remember I did say I used to believe that and while not overtly taught in the church I grew up in, it was pretty much the accepted doctrine .

Polar · Jun 6, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

I do consider your entire post, but just highlighting the above for the moment. I would disagree with the (perhaps) traditional understanding of 'hardened heart' in the sense it is used by those of the Calvinistic persuasion. I understand to have read that you do not declare yourself to be a Calvinist, but Calvinists do believe that God chooses and we have no say in the matter. I don't know to what degree you acknowledge that as your personal understanding. When I consider, for example, how the Bible declares that God continued to harden Pharaoh's heart, I also see that was already Pharaoh's inclination. Pharaoh brought down the judgement of God upon himself and condemned himself to this judgement by refusing to believe in the plagues as having come from God or worse, believing he was just as powerful.

He refused to allow the Israelites to leave.

Exodus 8:15 actually states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart and would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

The sin that keeps us from eternal life, is rejecting God's Son.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 6, 2022

Evmur said:
"yes but"

Choice is not freewill.

Choice is an instrument of government, The One who gives the choice and who controls the outcome of whatever choice is made, He it is who is the only one with free sovereign will.

If they had freewill they could devise an option of their own, they could simply fold their arms and refuse to make a choice at all, no no they must choose, they have no choice but to choose between the options given to them.

And the options were serve Me, in which case they will be doing God's will, or perish in which case they will have no more will at all.

Polar said:

And that is precisely the issue. Since Calvinists do not believe that an unsaved person has the ability to believe apart from being regenerated first, they have to attack "free will" and freedom to choose, whatever. Either way, their position is refuted.

Bingo!

FreeGrace2 · Jun 6, 2022

Polar said:

I'm very glad to see common sense here. It is sad how many totally misunderstand what is meant by "hardened by God".

Exodus 9 explains how God hardened Pharoah's heart.
13 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, ‘This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me,
14 or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth.
15 For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth.
16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
17 You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go.

v.13 shows what God had Moses tell Pharaoh. Which Pharoah DIDN'T do.
v.15 clearly shows how God "hardened" Pharoah's hard heart. He kept Pharoah alive longer in order to show His power in v.16.

iow, God allowed Pharoah to live longer, which was an opportunity for Pharoah to continue to harden his own heart.

Exactly!

In fact, in the first 5 plagues, the Bible says that Pharoah hardened his own heart. That was his own choice.

15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart and would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

The sin that keeps us from eternal life, is rejecting God's Son.[/QUOTE]
Amen!

Mem · Jun 6, 2022

Evmur said:

yet, to refrain from making a choice is a choice, so then even they can't help but to choose.

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 6, 2022

Polar said:

Hello,

I definitely do not consider myself one to be of Luther or Calvin. However, I used to relate to others by saying that I was a blend of the two. After having received the Indwelling Spirit in the most profound and physically measurable way, I realized that to follow the ideas of simple "man" was foolish. I abandoned every teaching any human had ever given to me and began looking at the Word of God (alone). I only look at commentary but a handful of times per year . . . as in five or less. I used to own hardcover commentaries, dictionaries, the TSK, tons of recordings of John Macarthur, etc, yadda yadda. They're all gone. Once I abandoned the teachings of "men" and began reading the Bible literally word by word (attempting to understand everything I was reading and how it all related in a timeline, chronological order), I saw a completely different Bible. My view of the Bible was no longer based on what others told me I should see, but it was based on what God wanted me to see. And this is not to say that I was without flaws. No way. In fact, each time that I discover that I am wrong about something, I break out in cold sweats. I am mortified to find that I have taught things that we wrong. For, having felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God, I rest in terror thinking that I have been teaching others something that is contrary to His Holy Word (and Plan).

So, no . . . I do not even recall what Luther or Calvin taught. All of that is jibber-jabber to me. I don't care about what others believe, but instead, I care about what [we] believe here at the forum. I turn to all of you before any person who has written a book. I'd rather ask questions and speak with all of you . . . first.

As for the hardening of hearts, I see two things going on. The actual hardening of the heart is done by God; this is something that is beyond our control. When another person hardens their heart, this is another way of saying that we become stubborn, as in the case of Pharaoh. No person can harden or unharden their hearts, for this would be the equivalent of the choice of being under the Curse of the Sinful Nature and deciding to no longer be under the Curse. No human has this ability to lift and apply said Curse of the Lord. But to become stubborn seems to be something of a different form. But hey . . . I'm not an expert on the matter.

When it comes to Pharaoh, I just accept what is said about him, which is that God used Pharaoh to demonstrate His Almighty Power through him . . . which includes the control over his thoughts and decisions regarding the Jews.

I could write more, but I've got some studying to do. Peace to you.

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 6, 2022

As I have stated before, I'm trying to get back to adding these texts according to a timeline, chronological order. In doing so, it makes these texts more powerful and meaningful. So, I'm having to step back to Job . . . which is day 15 in the order.

Job 42:2 CSB - "I know that you can do anything and no plan of yours can be thwarted."

Mahy people reject the idea that God has a Plan for our lives. But, this simply doesn't make any sense. Many believe that God places us in certain positions, gives us our spouses, etc . . . yet when it comes to our lives, nearly everyone says that THEY choose and decide what takes place in their lives. But was Job wrong when he told God that His Plans cannot be overturned should He have them? Consider what Paul wrote to Timothy below . . . the Plan of living a Holy Life.

2 Timothy 1:9 NLT - "For God saved us and called us to live a holy life. He did this, not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan from before the beginning of time--to show us his grace through Christ Jesus."

If this is the Plan of God, and if Job is right, which is that God's Plan are never over-turned, are we sure that we "chose" God? Or, is it possible that God chooses His Holy Elect SO THAT they will live a Holy Life? If this is the Plan of God, how can we say that it is our Plan?

Look at what Ezekiel has to say about living this Holy Life (and note the words SO THAT):

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."

What we have just read is the workings of the Spiritual Circumcision of Christ. We receive Spiritual Circumcision SO THAT we will follow the decrees of the Lord, careful to obey His regulations. Obviously, this means that we CANNOT live this way until we receive Circumcision of Heart. We cannot choose to be the person described in Ezekiel above until we are lifted of the Curse. We do not have the ability to make these choices of obedience. And more, this is the Operation of Faith, as the KJV puts it.

Colossians 2:12 KJV - "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

Salvations is entirely the Work of God, and not of ourselves.

Polar · Jun 6, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

Hello,

I definitely do not consider myself one to be of Luther or Calvin. However, I used to relate to others by saying that I was a blend of the two. After having received the Indwelling Spirit in the most profound and physically measurable way, I realized that to follow the ideas of simple "man" was foolish. I abandoned every teaching any human had ever given to me and began looking at the Word of God (alone). I only look at commentary but a handful of times per year . . . as in five or less. I used to own hardcover commentaries, dictionaries, the TSK, tons of recordings of John Macarthur, etc, yadda yadda. They're all gone. Once I abandoned the teachings of "men" and began reading the Bible literally word by word (attempting to understand everything I was reading and how it all related in a timeline, chronological order), I saw a completely different Bible. My view of the Bible was no longer based on what others told me I should see, but it was based on what God wanted me to see. And this is not to say that I was without flaws. No way. In fact, each time that I discover that I am wrong about something, I break out in cold sweats. I am mortified to find that I have taught things that we wrong. For, having felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God, I rest in terror thinking that I have been teaching others something that is contrary to His Holy Word (and Plan).

So, no . . . I do not even recall what Luther or Calvin taught. All of that is jibber-jabber to me. I don't care about what others believe, but instead, I care about what [we] believe here at the forum. I turn to all of you before any person who has written a book. I'd rather ask questions and speak with all of you . . . first.

As for the hardening of hearts, I see two things going on. The actual hardening of the heart is done by God; this is something that is beyond our control. When another person hardens their heart, this is another way of saying that we become stubborn, as in the case of Pharaoh. No person can harden or unharden their hearts, for this would be the equivalent of the choice of being under the Curse of the Sinful Nature and deciding to no longer be under the Curse. No human has this ability to lift and apply said Curse of the Lord. But to become stubborn seems to be something of a different form. But hey . . . I'm not an expert on the matter.

When it comes to Pharaoh, I just accept what is said about him, which is that God used Pharaoh to demonstrate His Almighty Power through him . . . which includes the control over his thoughts and decisions regarding the Jews.

I could write more, but I've got some studying to do. Peace to you.

Well again I read all of your post and I appreciate what you say. I disagree with your conclusion regarding the hardening of the heart. I did expressly illustrate the fact that the Bible tells us that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. It would seem that God remarked on that and continued the process (not trying to be smart).

I don't understand what you mean by that. Probably not going to be back on here tonight so next time.

You certainly will not be accused of over-simplification. That's a good thing.

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