Trinity Questions

I agree that Jesus was [not] praying to Himself, but at the same time, He indeed was praying to Himself, but in a different form (or aspect). The Father is not the Son, nor is the Father the Spirit . . . they are three distinct aspects of One . . . the One God of all that is.

I'm a drummer. Only recently have I picked up the sticks to play again. In prior years, I used to be pretty good, for I played every day for over ten years. My mind knows exactly what my body should do to ensure that the sticks don't fly out of my hands. My mind knows how the drums should sound so that when I play, there is an emotional texture to the sounds that I create. But without recent years of practice, I find that my body is unable to play as it once did. My mind is "there" - my mind knows exactly what the sounds that I should be able to create, but my body is not participating. I experience frustrations with my hands and feet, for they are not doing what they once did. What do I do? I talk to my body and say, "Come!! You know what to do . . . why can't you do this?"

When my mind speaks to my body, is my body not me? My mind, or, the god of my person speaks to my body, are they not one? Of course, my body is me, and so is my mind. I am made up of three aspects, my mind, body, and of course, we have a spirit (hopefully not one of timidity). My body is me; my mind is me, but they are clearly not the same thing. But when one aspect of me speaks to another, the one aspect is clearly speaking to itself. And, at times . . . my body speaks to me, conveying messages of pain and pleasure and even the manufacture of sounds. What makes music from the drums? Is it my mind or is it my body? Without the body, the drums cannot make sounds. So who is responsible for the music that is made? Is it my mind or my body? Which should take responsibility for it all? If I say that my mind takes full credit, then I deny the necessity of my body. If I deny my mind and only give credit to my body, and I not negligent?

Early in this thread, I presented this idea and it was shot down. So be it. That said, there is no doubt that God gave us three aspects to ourselves so that He could demonstrate Himself in how we are to view the Trinity . . . the Nature of God. And of course; I admit that I could be wrong, but to date, and in my opinion, there is no greater way to express the Trinity other than by looking at ourselves in how He has created us to be and exist.

Jesus, who is God manifested in the Flesh, was praying to God as He is in Heaven. They are One, but One is physical, One is Spirit, One is the "Command Center." They are all separate aspects of One God just as our mind, spirit and body are all aspects of one "person."

On a different Christian forum, someone made this statement below:

This is a mystery...how both Father and Son share one Holy Spirit.

God is One.

But one what?

God is One Holy Spirit. God IS Spirit.

Does that mean that the Holy Spirit is a separate person?

Of course not.

There is no Trinity....there is a Godhead (Elohim) of both Father and Son. That's it!

The person who made this statement above will not reveal where he attends church. This person goes on to attack the Trinity doctrine and refers to it as a Roman Catholic teaching that was invented to control people. He also goes on to say that there is no need to seek baptism in the Spirit if you are already baptized in a Trinity and there is no power in the church that does this. He uses the word 'POWER' a lot in his arguments and even teaches 'SINLESS PERFECTION.' Any ideas on which cult he most likely attends?

Start by posting https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf

I will be kicked off soon by my wife.

This will give you leads on Binitarian churches.

https://www.duq.edu/assets/Documents/theology/_pdf/faculty-publications/Bucur publications/BinitarianismModTheo.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binitarianism

https://www.google.com/search?q=binitarian+monotheism”&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS1006US1006&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

bitarian, Daniel Boyarin, invective, Jack Miles, Jesus, Kabbalah, kvetching, Pesikta, Peter Schaefer, Peter Schäfer, Rabbinic Judaism, scandal of the cross, Second Temple Judaism, The Jewish Gospels, The Jewish Jesus, trinitarian, unitarian
by Theophrastus


google binitarian monotheism”

It goes back to 1850's by this book:

The Theological Works of Herbert Thorndike

Possible churches
Churches of God (Seventh-Day)
Seventh Day Baptist
Church of the firstborn


check library for meads book of demoninations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sabbath-keeping_churches
http://www.originalchristianity.net/?p=5762

On a different Christian forum, someone made this statement below:

This is a mystery...how both Father and Son share one Holy Spirit.

God is One.

But one what?

God is One Holy Spirit. God IS Spirit.

Does that mean that the Holy Spirit is a separate person?

Of course not.

There is no Trinity....there is a Godhead (Elohim) of both Father and Son. That's it!

The person who made this statement above will not reveal where he attends church. This person goes on to attack the Trinity doctrine and refers to it as a Roman Catholic teaching that was invented to control people. He also goes on to say that there is no need to seek baptism in the Spirit if you are already baptized in a Trinity and there is no power in the church that does this. He uses the word 'POWER' a lot in his arguments and even teaches 'SINLESS PERFECTION.' Any ideas on which cult he most likely attends?

No. "Trinity" as currently defined by most is the false Roman Catholic heresy. There is an eternal Heavenly Trio. May this help you:

JEHOVAH Elohiym is the eternal family/relationship. JEHOVAH is the singular eternal family name, while Elohiym (Gods, trio) are the individual Persons/Beings that exist in that eternal family/relationship, Matt. 28:19; 1 Jhn. 5:7,8.

1. JEHOVAH, "the LORD" (Gen. 19:24b.; Zec. 3:2b.), "the Ancient of days" (Dan. 7:9,13,22) is "the only true God" (Jhn. 17:3; τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν θεὸν), "God" (Jhn. 1:1b.; τὸν θεόν), "thy God" (Heb. 1:9; ὁ θεός σου), "God the Father" (2 Jhn. 1:3; θεοῦ πατρός) the "person" (Job 13:8; Heb. 1:3) identified in the beginning as the "God said" (Gen. 1:6), for it was by Him that Revelation says, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." (Rev. 4:11).

2. Jesus JEHOVAH (Gen.49:18; Exo. 14:13; 2 Chr. 20:17; Jon. 2:9; Psa. 119:174 HOT) or JEHOVAH Immanuel (see Psa. 46:7,11 HOT)), "the LORD" (Gen. 19:24a.; Zec. 3:2a.), "the son of man" (Dan. 7:13), "the only begotten" (Jhn. 1:14,18, 3:16,18; Heb. 11:17; 1 Jhn. 4:9, is basically monogene (μονογενῆ; Jhn. 3:16; Heb. 11:17; 1 Jhn. 4:9) or monogenes (μονογενὴς; Jhn. 1:18) or monogenous (μονογενοῦς; Jhn. 1:14, 3:18)), "the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father" (2 Jhn. 1:3; Κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ πατρός) is not "the only true God" (Jhn. 17:3), but is "the express image of his person" (Heb. 1:3; χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ), being "the Word was God" (Jhn. 1:1c.; θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος), who is "O God" (Heb. 1:9; ὁ θεός), the "just person" (Matt. 27:24, "person", 2 Cor. 2:10) indentified in the beginning as "God made" (Gen. 1:7) on behalf of the Father's direction (Pro. 8:22-36; Exo. 20:12), for it was by him (the Son) that John says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (Jhn. 1:3), that Ephesians says, "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:" (Eph. 3:9), that Colossians says, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" (Col. 1:16), that Hebrews says, "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" (Heb. 1:2), the very, "I AM THAT I AM" (Exo. 3:14), the great "I am" (Jhn. 8:58; ἐγὼ εἰμί), the very "fellow" (Zec. 13:7) of the Father's person, and who comes in the name of His Father (Jhn. 5:43).

3. The Holy Spirit of JEHOVAH (Luk. 4:18), "his Spirit" (Isa. 48:16), "the LORD" (Zec. 3:2c.), the "another Comforter" (Jhn. 14:6), even "he", "the spirit of truth" (Jhn. 14:17, 15:26, 16:13), "God" (Acts 5:4), identified in the beginning as "the Spirit of God moved" (Gen. 1:2) and "God saw" (Gen. 1 throughout, the eternal Witness who inspired the scriptures; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:21), by which/whom everything is "created" (Psa. 104:30) and "made" (Job 33:4), whose nature is a mystery left unspoken of in scripture, but is the person who does "not speak of himself" (Jhn. 16:13), but comes in the name of the Son (Jhn. 14:26).

The eternal Heavenly Trio - family JEHOVAH Elohiym, over all creation as "Godhead".

If I were to try to present this idea in a limited humanistic fashion, it might go something like this:

Father Jones

Son Jones Jr.

Cousin Jones.

The trio "Jones", or "Jones" family.

Three Persons/Beings working together as united family without dischord, but rather thinking and acting as harmonious chord.

Owning "Jones" Construction, they are all "Boss" (like "God") over their employees.

In fact the Father "Jones" can be "with" Son "Jones" Jr at a construction site, and an employee come up to them two, and say "Boss", and both would respond together, because "Boss" (Son) was with the "Boss" (Father) at that moment, thus in John 1:1 "God" was "with" "God".

Even in maths, this works, because of something called "set theory".

Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Set Deity)

Angels, mankind & lesser creatures (Set creation)

Set Deity is Head over Set creation. Yet Set Deity is not a single Person/Being, but a group, as all individuals together which are creation is not a single person/being but a group.

Yet, in (Set Deity) as (Head) are three Persons/Beings which individually or together are "Head" over creation.

Yet in (Set Deity) there is also heirarchy (Gen. 41:40).

Set Father

Set Son

Set Holy Spirit.

Now for "only true God" and "only begotten":

Mono

Gene

Mono is simply "one", "only".

Mono is used in conjunction or connection, gene.

Gene refers to race or nature (that which makes up the content of essence), that which comes about or exists through/from another.

It's used this way even coming down to our English:

"gene (n.) 1911, from German Gen, coined 1905 by Danish scientist Wilhelm Ludvig Johannsen (1857-1927), from Greek genea "generation, race" (from PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget"). De Vries had earlier called them pangenes. Gene pool is attested from 1946." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/Gene

That is why the Father is called:

monon alethinon theon, ton theon

And because the Son is in the express image of the Father, is called:

monogene, logos en o theos

The Father's nature is His own, underived ("true"*), but the Son, because He is the Son has that same nature because of the Father.

True - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/true

Authentic - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/authentic

Original - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/original

It means underived.

So monogene in connection with monon alethinon theon means that the nature of the Son is of the Father and he is the only Son of the Father with that nature of the Father.

Created Angels and humans are sons, but not of that same nature as the Father and Son are.

In other words:

The Father is "The only true (underived in nature) God"

The Son is "The only begotten (derives His nature from the Father because He is the Son) God"

Remember, "only begotten" has nothing to do with time, or creation, or coming into existence in these contexts, but and only deals with the existing nature of the Son in relation to the Father.

I know what people think when I say that, but they need to understand the definition of what is said by saying it.

Another thing that needs to be discussed that shows the error of the Catholic "trinity" is the following:

The Father is not a perfume, not an aethereal essence pervading the universe. That is pantheism, or panentheism, both of which are gross heresies and destroys the Gospel itself and would even place God in the sinner, including satan himself, which is a violation of Revelation 3:20, etc. God is omnipresent through omniscience (Psalms 139).

Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

He, the Father, is a "Person", even His person (Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3), of which Jesus (the Son) is the "express image" of.

As for the rest, see "His person" (Job 13:8); "form of God" (Philippians 2:6), "shape" (John 5:37), "image" (Genesis 1:26,27; Hebrews 1:3), "likeness" (Genesis 1:26,27), "being" (Acts 17:28), has a very real movable "Throne" on which He sits (Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 4-5, &c), has "the hair of his head like the pure wool" (Daniel 7:9), "whose garment was white as snow" (Daniel 7:9), has a "right hand" (Revelation 5:1; Acts 7:55-56), able to be looked upon, "to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone" (Revelation 4:2), having His own "nature" (Galatians 4:8).

God has hairs on His head, Daniel 7:9; and has hands, Exodus 33:22; and has feet, Exodus 24:10; and loins [H4975; waist to upper thighs, see 1 Kings 18:46, etc], Ezekiel 1:27; a face, Matthew 18:10; a heart, Genesis 6:6; parts, Exodus 22:32; a form, Philippians 2:6; shape, John 5:37; is a Person, Hebrews 1:3; is a Soul, Jeremiah 5:9; and is a Spirit, thus has a mind, Matthew 12:28.

See also "back parts" (Exodus 33:23), and even a "divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), see also "under his feet" (Exodus 24:10).

The angels are also called 'spirits' and "persons" ("fellows"; Hebrews 1:9), "young man" (Mark 16:5; Daniel 9:21; &c), and yet have real celestial (Heavenly) "bodies" with unfallen angelic "flesh" (1 Corinthians 15:35-58; Jude 1:7, Genesis 17-19, &c) an unfallen heavenly "nature" (Hebrews 2:16), where as we have bodies terrestrial (dust).

The Son is also a "person" (Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 27:24; Deuteronomy 27:25; &c).

So is the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; &c)

Mankind are also called 'spirits' (1 Peter 3:19; Hebrews 12:23) and yet are real tangible beings, with bodies (made of dust).

Philippians 2:6; Daniel 3:25; Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10-11; Psalms 18:9; John 5:37; Exodus 33:23,20,22; Daniel 7:9-10,13; Ezekiel 1:1,8,26-28; Acts 7:55-56; Psalms 24:1-10; John 20:17; 1 Peter 3:22; Matthew 18:10; Revelation 1:13-20, 2:1, 4:1-11, 5:1-14; Hebrews 1:13; Colossians 1:3-6; Numbers 12:8; Isaiah 45:23, 48:3; Revelation 3:16; Psalms 89:34; Psalms 104:33, 146:2; Acts 17:28; Genesis 1:26-27; Colossians 1:15; &c.

So what you are saying is that the Father's wishes are obeyed by Jesus. I agree. That is why Christ sits on the Father's right hand. The Father communicates His will through His Holy Spirit which also gives power, knowledge, understanding, and a conduit for the Father to speak through the mouth of the recipient as well as converse with him. The recipient is called a prophet of God and Jesus was full of the Father's Spirit.
John 14: 7-12 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also; and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him. Philip saith unto Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been such a long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you, I speak not of myself; but the Father, that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me for the very works sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do, because I go unto my Father.

Have you ever said or thought to yourself, why did I ever say or do those things, as though you had no control over what you said or did? Who or what caused you to react without thought to a situation or a person?

I remember when I was about 10 years old how I snapped at my mom for no reason. It bothered me that I reacted that way until I realized that chemical reactions in our bodies influence our mood. I recall the physical agitation I felt inside of me before I snapped and wondering why it happened after.
God is a spirit with a mind and a heart. Our bodies are temples for our spirit with a mind and a heart. Our bodies are also temples for other spirits as in being possessed or filled with the Holy Spirit of God. Our world is

[Jhn 8:58 NKJV] 58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

The all caps on "I AM" is a straight copy and paste from the Blue Letter Bible. I'm assuming that Jesus is referring to Himself as the great "I AM." And since Jesus wasn't walking the planet, at least not in His Christ form, this too implies that He is the Almighty God of all.

I'm not suggesting that it is easy to understand, nonetheless, these ARE the concepts and principles of our unbelievable Bible. And, I won't deny them.

I know Jesus is The LORD..

I know Jesus the Mighty God..

I know Jesus is The Everlasting Father..

(Isaiah 9:6) "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Jesus and the Father are One..

Are you sure?

If a person who suffers from chronic back pain, for example, says . . . "My body has forsaken me" - Is that person referring to themselves or someone else?

How is it, then, that He was not praying to Himself? If Jesus is God in a human body, Emanuel, meaning "God is with us," then how was He not praying to Himself just as a person's body tells them through signals of pain that they are hurting? Does our body not speak to us?

I suffer from pain each day and believe me . . . my body is speaking to me much more than I'd like. But is my body not me?

When people ask me, "How are you doing?" I often say (because there are three elements to myself), "Well, my body is fair, my heart is broken, but my Spirit is strong and amazing! Are not all three still me though separate?

"I and my Father are one. " (John 10:30)

And, yet, they are two:

"In the beginning was the Word, and THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. " (John 1:1)

Again:

"It is also written in your law, that THE TESTIMONY OF TWO MEN IS TRUE. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. " (John 8:17-18)

As far as Jesus and the Father being "one" is concerned, we need to consider the following:

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; AS THOU, FATHER, ART IN ME, AND I IN THEE, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE: I IN THEM, AND THOU IN ME, THAT THEY MAY BE MADE PERFECT IN ONE; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:20-23)

When Jesus prayed that we may be "one", even as he and the Father are "one", was he praying that we would become God?

Of course not.

Instead, he was praying that we would be "one", AS IN UNITED, as he and the Father are "one".

In other words, there are many instances in scripture where the word "one" does NOT mean a singularity.

Instead, it oftentimes means "united".

I could easily cite some Biblical examples of this, but Jesus already gave us an example in his prayer in John chapter 17.