Whose job is it to provide this training?

Whose job is it to provide this training?



Jeremiah 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.



Jeremiah 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness. 11.They have made it desolate, and being desolate it mourneth unto me; the whole land is made desolate, because no man layeth it to heart.



Jeremiah 23:1.Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. 2Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. 3And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.



God makes it clear that the job of training up the flock begins with the Pastor. The only problem is that most Pastors, fail through sin or lack of faithfulness. The most important duty of a pastor is to work hard at preaching and teaching. By his sermons and his teaching, he shows his love to God and to the congregation. It will be obvious in the messages a pastor preaches when he is not growing in his walk with God and is not spending many hours in scripture. The apostles did not have time for administration and neither do pastors today. In fact, some of the centralization of power with pastors would disappear if administrative duties were turned over to other elders and deacons The priority of the apostles was the teaching of the scriptures – the Bible. When the Bible is seriously taught book-by-book and verse-by-verse, Christians will be warned about sin, be encouraged in the faith, learn how to live the Christian life, and best of all discover the character of God.



It is sad that people set in church for years and have no clue as to what God expects of them. Some of the saddest word in scripture are said by Jesus to “Christians”

We are going to look at Matthew 7 13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.



15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Do you know what tree your fruit is coming from? You better become an expert fruit inspector if you expect to make it.



21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Verses 22 and 23 make it clear that these people thought that they were Christians yet they did not really know Jesus. Have we not prophesied “taught”

in your Name, cast out devils, and done many wonderful works? What does Jesus tell them? Depart from Me. I never know you.



Is your church teaching you that there are 7 seals and that they are given in order of importance and not in numerical order? That there are also 7 trumpets they are given in order and there 7 vials that will be poured out on the earth. Satan comes at the 6th trump, 6th seal and the 6th vial = 666. Does your church teach you that at the 5th trump there is an army turned lose Revelation 9:1-6 1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.



Does your church teach you that this was the message preached by Peter and the others on the Day of Pentecost? Acts chapter 2 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born 9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. 14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: Joel 2:28-31.

We could go on and on like this but I am sure you have got the point I am making.

In closing I just want to say that weather you have been saves 2 weeks, 2 years or 20+ years your Pastor should be feeding you all at your level in one way or another.

Amen!

There was no role of "pastor" (as we know it) during the Old Testament period; the word is "shepherd" (though the words are related). God was talking about the leaders of Israel (judges, priests, leading men of the community), not local congregational leaders.

Peter and the other apostles were charged specifically with preaching the word of God (rather than 'waiting on tables'). The role of a pastor is not established in Scripture, and it is unreasonable to conclude that they have the same role or that their time should be "preserved" for preparing sermons. As for your take on Revelation, there are many others, and asserting that pastors are failing because they aren't teaching your pet interpretation is nothing other than intellectual arrogance.

Finally, what you prefer in the way of Christian teaching is merely your opinion. People can read Scripture for themselves, and have the responsibility to do so. Yes, teachers will answer for how and what they teach, but individual Christians will also answer for how they listen and respond.

That is why I wrote the 2 posts Are you being tought the true Gospel or a false one and this one wanted it all to be one post but too long. People are just setting in church thanking they are serving God but they are not.

Where does Scripture say this? Not having time seems a different issue than what actually happened.

That is how my church teaches. We are currently in a two year study of/through Corinthians.


Matthew 7:13 plus Romans 8:13

I hadn’t seen the other thread. Two posts in the same thread might have been a better approach.

Ya but sometimes they don't post them because they have the same nme even when I put part 1&2

There are, last I heard, an estimated 380,000 churches in the US alone..

That's 380,000 pastors (probably at minimum) in just our country alone.

The issue is that when a famous one has fallen to sin, it's publicized by atheists far and wide in effort to criticize the Christian faith, when the reality is most Pastors are quite faithful, quietly leading their congregations with no fanfare. But you don't hear about them because it doesn't fit in with the atheist agenda.

To preface, I am not a Cessationist

No, because God interacts with humanity differently in different ages of history.
We are in the same age of grace and the same new covenant as the church was in the first century.
So that hypothetical is a non-sequitur, but it doesn't disprove Continuationism.

Here is where I come up with the idea of Pastors not taking on the admirative duties.

Many Christians believe the pastor should be an administrator for the church. They fail to realize that God did not give every pastor the spiritual gift of administration. It is common for churches to seek a pastor who is a great people person, an excellent administrator for the church, and an effective counselor, as well as a great preacher. But ten hours a week for sermon preparation and teaching/preaching is not enough. In fact, this church had missed the emphasis of the following two passages.

In the first passage the apostles were being asked to do some church administration – to care for some widows. Now that is an important and loving ministry. But they responded by saying that this was not the most important priority for them. I am sure some in that church thought they were unloving and uncaring to these widows. But their greatest priority – greatest expression of love – was to be in prayer for them and to teach and preach the Word to them.

This is the same message in 1 Timothy 5:17. In the early church there were two types of elders. There were elders who were gifted in administration – “rule well” – and those who worked hard at teaching/preaching. In many churches the elders who rule well are called lay elders and the other elders are called pastors. However, Acts 20:17, 28 and 1 Peter 5:1-3 indicate that all elders are pastors even if their vocation and spiritual gifts are different. Some elders will naturally excel in administration and others in teaching and preaching.

If we take the examples provided in Scripture and follow through on there teaching - the one thing that comes across, loud and clear, is - the men that held these offices, in the Old Testament and in the early church, were all called of God.

Men like Moses and the Prophets were called of God. They did not make a self determination to become Prophets. They were appointed to the office, by the Lord and sometimes, not so willingly.

The disciples, that became Apostles, were called by Jesus Christ and later where affirmed by the church. Acts 1:21-26 Of the men therefore that have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection. And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show of these two the one whom thou hast chosen, to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas fell away, that he might go to his own place. And they gave lots for them; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

The Apostle Paul was called directly by Jesus Christ to the office.

Pastors/Teachers are men who have been given the gift of Preaching. They are then recognized, by the church, as having this gift. Just as it was with Timothy. 1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto you, my child Timothy, according to the good reports which led the way to you, that by them you may fight the good warfare;

First Timothy is the Great Pastoral letter. It defines the offices and requirements of those offices, for the church age. If they were strictly followed, we would have had far less Heresy coming from the Pulpit.

However, things changed in the modern church age. Rather than men being given the gift and called of God to Preach - then confirmed by the church as indeed possessing this gift and calling - Seminaries began to spring up and men seeking a career in the church began to fill the roles of Pastors. Some are called and many others just want a career in religion.

Who should be the man of God's trainer? The Holy Spirit and good, sound, Doctrinal teaching from the churches existing Pastor. If he is to Preach, then let the church decide.

I
The issue is not that a few famous pastors have fallen. The issue is that far to many set in a church Sunday, Sunday night, Wednesday, and any other time the doors are open and yet they are no better off than most of the "good people" in the world.

It is sad that people set in church for years and have no clue as to what God expects of them. Some of the saddest word in scripture are said by Jesus to “Christians”

We are going to look at Matthew 7 13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.



15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Do you know what tree your fruit is coming from? You better become an expert fruit inspector if you expect to make it.



21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Verses 22 and 23 make it clear that these people thought that they were Christians yet they did not really know Jesus. Have we not prophesied “taught”

in your Name, cast out devils, and done many wonderful works? What does Jesus tell them? Depart from Me. I never know you.

Was this in reference to my question?

Or saying that "not having time" is a different issue than what was described of overseers in OT times?

For many people the Words of God don't reach their heart.. but is that really the Pastors fault?

"And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there. Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us." Acts of the Apostles 16:11-15

it's an act of God to give people true understanding of His Word.

when I was unsaved, I went through it all until I was frustrated because I just didn't understand it, then one day God opened my heart, and all the pieces came together and it suddenly all made sense.

The words never changed, what changed was that God gave me a heart to understand those words. Suddenly I got it, and in that moment I was saved.

the problem with many is that they think men can save souls, when beginning to end it is God alone.

What is Continuationism?
Here is what I am trying to say
1st Corinthians 3


1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


Paul came to the church at Corinth and was unable to teach the people why? They had not been taught anything but you must be saved, and baptized and then a bunch of traditions of men an church doctrine that make void the word of God.





Hebrews 5


The Perfect High Priest


(Psalm 110:1-7)


1For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: 2Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. 3And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. 4And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.


5So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.


6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.


Warning against Drifting Away


11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Paul wanted to teach some deeper things of God but was unable to because they had not trained up. In fact they were dull of hearing. They should have been teachers but were unable to be a teacher because they were unskilled in the very basics of the word of God. That is what is going on in churches today. Most Pastors are to worried about putting people in the seats and money in the plate than they are teaching Gods word, training up a child in the way he or she should go “Child here is a new christian, a baby in Christ” They want to keep the people in the dark so they can teach church doctrine, the traditions of men, they do not want to put the work to train workman that can rightly devide the word of truth.


I HAVE NOT NOR DID I SAY EVERY CHURCH! I SAID MOST.

No if someone rejects the word of God it is not the Pastors faut. It is the pastors fault when people are not given the tools to grow, are not tought how to use the tools to become that master builder that need not be ashamed.

So wait until the opening post is approved and then add to the thread. State clearly in the first post that you will continue it.