Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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J

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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rogerg said:
No, there are two different manifestations of the adoption described in the Bible : 1) an adoption unto the becoming of the spiritual sons of God, 2) an adoption by God unto our new physical bodies; I.E, a spiritual adoption and a bodily adoption. Both adoptions resulting from being singly predestinated through Christ.

[1Jo 3:2 KJV]
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

[Rom 8:23 KJV]
23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

[Rom 8:15 KJV]
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

[Gal 4:3-7 KJV]
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Click to expand...
That's what I've been saying all along. Because of God's Spirit within us, we can be called sons of God even though we do not appear to be sons of God. We are predestined for the future adoption which is the redemption of the body.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#3,962
Jan 13, 2016
17,114
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#3,962
rogerg said:
No, there are two different manifestations of the adoption described in the Bible : 1) an adoption unto the becoming of the spiritual sons of God, 2) an adoption by God unto our new physical bodies; I.E, a spiritual adoption and a bodily adoption. Both adoptions resulting from being singly predestinated through Christ.

[1Jo 3:2 KJV]
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

[Rom 8:23 KJV]
23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

[Rom 8:15 KJV]
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

[Gal 4:3-7 KJV]
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Click to expand...
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1. hear the gospel
2. beleive/trust the gospel
3. sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the future redemption
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#3,963
Jul 13, 2021
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#3,963
John146 said:
That's what I've been saying all along. Because of God's Spirit within us, we can be called sons of God even though we do not appear to be sons of God. We are predestined for the future adoption which is the redemption of the body.
Click to expand...
You misunderstand. You referenced the bodily adoption as being the ONLY adoption, to support your claim of Eph 1:4 & 5.
I am saying the exact opposite of that: that those who have been blessed to partake in both adoptions were chosen to such BEFORE the
foundation of the world to be holy and without blame. Notice that nothing is required of those who are to receive it because they had been CHOSEN:

[Eph 1:4-5 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#3,964
Jan 13, 2016
17,114
3,687
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#3,964
rogerg said:
You misunderstand. You referenced the bodily adoption as being the ONLY adoption, to support your claim of Eph 1:4 & 5.
I am saying the exact opposite of that: that those who have been blessed to partake in both adoptions were chosen to such BEFORE the
foundation of the world to be holy and without blame. Notice that nothing is required of those who are to receive it because they had been CHOSEN:

[Eph 1:4-5 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Click to expand...
It is obvious that Ephesians 1 is speaking of the future adoption as part of our inheritance. It's what has been predestinated unto us who has first trusted in Christ. I do not use Calvins's RCC goggles to read scripture.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#3,965
Jul 13, 2021
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#3,965
John146 said:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1. hear the gospel
2. beleive/trust the gospel
3. sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the future redemption
Click to expand...
1. no one of themselves until born-again can correctly comprehend the gospel
2. no one of themselves until born-again can believe/trust in the gospel.
3. until and unless becoming saved/born again, no one will become sealed by the Holy Spirit
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#3,966
Jan 13, 2016
17,114
3,687
113
#3,966
rogerg said:
You misunderstand. You referenced the bodily adoption as being the ONLY adoption, to support your claim of Eph 1:4 & 5.
I am saying the exact opposite of that: that those who have been blessed to partake in both adoptions were chosen to such BEFORE the
foundation of the world to be holy and without blame. Notice that nothing is required of those who are to receive it because they had been CHOSEN:

[Eph 1:4-5 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Click to expand...
Notice, God didn't choose us TO BE in him, but rather, the context of the verses is located in verse 3 which you left out.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

The spiritual blessings in the heavenly places are in accordance to what God has chosen those in Christ. Before the foundation of the world, God chose Christ as the location of all spiritual blessings. If you want in on these spiritual blessings, one must first trust in Christ.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
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Jul 13, 2021
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#3,967
John146 said:
It is obvious that Ephesians 1 is speaking of the future adoption as part of our inheritance. It's what has been predestinated unto us who has first trusted in Christ. I do not use Calvins's RCC goggles to read scripture.
Click to expand...
There can't be one adoption without the other - both are gifts given by Christ
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#3,968
Jan 13, 2016
17,114
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#3,968
rogerg said:
1. no one of themselves until born-again can correctly comprehend the gospel
2. no one of themselves until born-again can believe/trust in the gospel.
3. until and unless becoming saved/born again, no one will become sealed by the Holy Spirit
Click to expand...
So, your theology flip flops the order.

1. you receive the Holy Spirit
2. you trust/believe in Christ
3. you hear the gospel
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
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Jul 13, 2021
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#3,969
John146 said:
Notice, God didn't choose us TO BE in him, but rather, the context of the verses is located in verse 3 which you left out.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

The spiritual blessings in the heavenly places are in accordance to what God has chosen those in Christ. Before the foundation of the world, God chose Christ as the location of all spiritual blessings. If you want in on these spiritual blessings, one must first trust in Christ.
Click to expand...
I don't understand your reply. Verses 3 and 4 are as clear as they can be: that those whom God chose before the foundation
of the world have been/will be given ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS, period - no other qualification included nor necessary. It
is not possible to force it to say anything other than that.

[Eph 1:3-4 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#3,971
Jul 13, 2021
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#3,971
John146 said:
So, your theology flip flops the order.

1. you receive the Holy Spirit
2. you trust/believe in Christ
3. you hear the gospel
Click to expand...
Sorry, I was wrong. #2 and #3 should be reversed - my mistake
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#3,972
Jan 13, 2016
17,114
3,687
113
#3,972
rogerg said:
I don't understand your reply. Verses 3 and 4 are as clear as they can be: that those whom God chose before the foundation
of the world have been/will be given ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS, period - no other qualification included nor necessary. It
is not possible to force it to say anything other than that.

[Eph 1:3-4 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Click to expand...
The word "according" takes the context back to verse 3. What has he chosen? Answer: Spiritual blessings in the heavenly places. God has not chosen people to be in Christ, but spiritual blessings.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#3,974
Jan 13, 2016
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#3,974
rogerg said:
Sorry, I was wrong. #2 and #3 should be reversed - my mistake
Click to expand...
But that's not the order in scripture. Don't rearrange the order to fit your theology. Change your theology to fit the order.
 
R

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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#3,975
John146 said:
But that's not the order in scripture. Don't rearrange the order to fit your theology. Change your theology to fit the order.
Click to expand...
What do you mean? Which scripture?
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
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Jul 13, 2021
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#3,976
John146 said:
Wow! One can trust/believe the gospel before hearing the gospel. That's your belief? Wow!
Click to expand...
Did you see my correction to the last sequence you provided? I said it was my mistake - flip 2 and 3
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
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Jul 13, 2021
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#3,977
John146 said:
1. you receive the Holy Spirit
2. you trust/believe in Christ
3. you hear the gospel
Click to expand...

Just to be clear:
1. Receive the Holy Spirit given as a gift of God
2. Hear the gospel through spiritual ears given as gift of God
3. Trust/believe in Christ given as a gift of God

All God's work. None ours.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#3,978
Jan 13, 2016
17,114
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#3,978
rogerg said:
Just to be clear:
1. Receive the Holy Spirit given as a gift of God
2. Hear the gospel through spiritual ears given as gift of God
3. Trust/believe in Christ given as a gift of God

All God's work. None ours.
Click to expand...
Ephesians 1:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Verse 13 contains the steps in order.

1. hear the gospel
2. after you hear, you believe the gospel
3. after you believe, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
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Jul 13, 2021
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#3,979
John146 said:
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were
Click to expand...
You didn't mention salvation in your list above. Actually, I understand how you came to that interpretation --
It comes about when we only read verses superficially at face value and do not probe more deeply, not realizing that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation, neither comparing the spiritual with the spiritual.
Anyway, the "ye heard" is a hearing by spiritual ears, not by physical ears. To be able to hear spiritually, one must first have become born-again; to become born-again, one must have become saved. The receiving of the seal is God's mark being spiritually placed upon someone as they come to a belief in Christ - but the seal is not salvation: it is a result of salvation; neither does our belief bring salvation: it also is the result of salvation. If you look at the verses immediately following, you can see that true faith(belief) is given as a fruit of the Spirit... but.... the Holy Spirit is only given to those whom God has chosen and saved -- when they become saved -- and in no other way, to no one else.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

The things that we have discussed come only with/by salvation. There is no other way to receive them but through salvation. Please
observe the following:

[Heb 6:9 KJV]
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

[2Co 1:20-22 KJV]
20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#3,980
Jan 13, 2016
17,114
3,687
113
#3,980
rogerg said:
You didn't mention salvation in your list above. Actually, I understand how you came to that interpretation --
It comes about when we only read verses superficially at face value and do not probe more deeply, not realizing that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation, neither comparing the spiritual with the spiritual.
Anyway, the "ye heard" is a hearing by spiritual ears, not by physical ears. To be able to hear spiritually, one must first have become born-again; to become born-again, one must have become saved. The receiving of the seal is God's mark being spiritually placed upon someone as they come to a belief in Christ - but the seal is not salvation: it is a result of salvation; neither does our belief bring salvation: it also is the result of salvation. If you look at the verses immediately following, you can see that true faith(belief) is given as a fruit of the Spirit... but.... the Holy Spirit is only given to those whom God has chosen and saved -- when they become saved -- and in no other way, to no one else.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

The things that we have discussed come only with/by salvation. There is no other way to receive them but through salvation. Please
observe the following:

[Heb 6:9 KJV]
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

[2Co 1:20-22 KJV]
20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Click to expand...
Yes, I take scripture at face value. Private interpretation occurs when you don’t take scripture at face value but look for some alternative meaning, especially using Calvin’s goggles when reading.
 
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