Election and predestination.

This subject has been covered a lot. The Bible clearly states that God chose (the elect) and predestined those He chose to be saved. However, the question remains, on what basis did God save the elect?

The conundrum revolves around God's declared will. It states clearly that God wants all mankind to be saved:

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance."

If God predestines certain people that He has chosen to be saved, how come He did not simply elect everyone? That would ensure that no one perished. The reality is that many do not repent and do indeed perish.

The answer is found in Romans 8:29

"For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers."

God knew beforehand who would accept His Son. That is the basis for election and predestination. God is not unfair or unjust. God is love. Even though He knows who will reject the Son, He requires that the gospel be preached to all mankind. No one will stand before God claiming that they have been hard done by. Lord Jesus chose Judas, knowing that the false apostle would betray Him. Even at the last, Lord Jesus called Judas "friend".

Agreed. Calvinism when boiled down takes free will or choice away from mankind. The foreknowledge of God already knows who is in the Book of life but their choice. That choice has then predestined to reap the harvest of Jesus's sacrifice.

Very true.

Having done a thorough search through the NT, I know there aren't any verses that say this. Rather, in every verse that gives the purpose for being chosen, is about service. Every time.

Several examples follow. Although there are over 2 pages of verses that support that election is for service.

1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

The red words state who the chosen are.
The blue words state the purpose for being chosen.

Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

Red words are who God chose; in this case the "us" refers to those who believe, as v.19 says that specficially.
Blue words are the purpose for which believers have been chosen.

John 6:70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Here, we see Jesus saying that He chose ALL 12, even though one was a devil. John added a bit of commentary in v.71 what Judas had been chosen for; betrayal, which fulfilled prophesy.

I have many more verses.

Not a fair question. God chooses both the saved as well as the unsaved for His purposes. We see this in God's choosing the people or nation of Israel. In no way can anyone argue that the entire nation of Jews in the OT were saved.

This "conundrum" is resolved when one knows that election isn't about being chosen for salvation.

But God never did "predestine certain people to be saved", unless you are willing to accept the truth that God has chosen all believers to be saved. That would be the only way to explain election to salvation. All believers, the "certain people" have been chosen for salvation.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

This is a choice. God chose to "save those who believe".

And this election to save those who believe is definitely NOT unconditional, as the "U" in TULIP states. Salvation is conditioned upon faith in Jesus Christ.

And the reason is that God created mankind with a conscience by which to evaluate data and make decisions. Doesn't mean every decision is good or wise. But man is free to make his own decisions.

This verse simply states that God has predestined those He foreknew to be conformed to the image of His Son. This isn't about salvation at all. It's about spiritual growth in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Exactly. This is why God could predestine all believers to be saved. 1 Cor 1:21

I find this to be a real conundrum. If God chose unconditionally to save some, then there would be no reason to preach the gospel to everyone. In fact, telling the gospel to someone (even though we can't know who God chose for salvation unconditionally, if that were true) would be a straight up LIE. 1 Cor 15:1-4 shows clearly that Paul preached to everyone that "Christ died for our (he means everyone in earshot) sins".

Rather, if the truth were that God simply didn't choose unconditionally some people for salvation, then those He didn't choose WOULD HAVE A LEGITIMATE EXCUSE for ending up in hell.

Since everyone is a sinner and deserves the lake of fire, this poor unchosen person could legitimately say that he is in hell only because God didn't choose him, like God chose those who went to heaven.

And this proves that biblical election isn't to salvation.

Not "chosen to be saved" but chosen to be perfected and glorified (Rom 8:29,30).

The question I pose when it comes to this topic is “Did Christ’s sacrifice constitute a complete propitiation or a possible one”?

I will reply to some of your points herein but this will be my only post, as this subject, is always argued to and froe by the same people and usually accomplishing little.

As to 2 Peter 3:9 - It is not a statement, by the writer, about God desiring to have all of humanity come to Repentance. This has been an error taught for way too long.

Peter, here, intends for the reader to understand that "everyone" - are the Elect of God. Peter is not addressing the world - he is addressing believers. The Proof is in the context: 2 Peter 3:1 - It states that he is writing to those called: Beloved. The purpose is to put them in remembrance, about former things, they had learned.

Unbelievers (non-Elect), are the subject of verses 3-7.

In verse 8, Peter returns to the "Beloved". His intent, with verse 9 - is to remind them that God is longsuffering "towards them", the world is not in view. (This should have reminded them of passages like: Rom_11:25 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;

Having the proper understanding of the writers intent, removes the "tension", that you are herein speaking of.

While God does indeed know all things - declaring the end from the beginning - this is not the way in which "foreknowledge" is to be understood, here in Rom. 8:29.

Foreknew, ( προεγνω ), as used in this verse, is not about knowing the future. It is and can be used in that way but here, it speaks of "knowing" - as in the most intimate of ways. Such as in Genesis - where the Hebrew word for "know" is translated, in the Septuagint, by this same Greek word for "know" ( γινώσκω ). Verses in Genesis, that show great affection - Such as Adam "knew" his wife - use this Greek word. This thought of intimacy, is expressed in other verses, about God's Elect. Such as:

Mat_7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew ( ουδεποτε εγνων - meaning "never at any point knew" ), you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Obviously, this cannot mean, the Lord had no knowledge of them. He knows even the numbers of the hairs on our heads. So it must be understood to mean, He had never known them in an intimate relationship. Or in other words - they were never in the Eternal Covenant of Redemption. (Heb. 13:20).

Again, this intimate relationship with the Elect, is expressed in John 10.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me,
Joh 10:15 even as ( καθως - meaning: "Even as" or "in the same way") the Father knows me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Look at the beauty of this symmetry. The good Shepherd knows the Elect. (Intimately) and the Elect know the good Shepherd (Intimately) and this intimacy is compared to the intimacy that the Father has with the Son and the Son with the Father.

Now that is shouting ground folks !!!!

Because one side simply refuses to believe the truth found in Scripture.

There are NO verses that teach that man is unable to believe the gospel. Rather, Scripture is filled with commands TO believe the gospel.

There are NO verses that teach that God unconditionally chooses who will be saved. Rather, Scripture is filled with verses that say plainly that salvation is conditioned upon faith in Christ.

There are NO verses that teach that Christ died ONLY for a subgroup of the human race. Rather, Scripture is filled with verses that plainly state that He died for all. And there is nothing in any of the contexts that puts limits on the word "all". Calvinists do that on their own.

There are NO verses that teach that God's grace is irresistible. Acts 7:51 says that men resist the Holy Spirit. And what's the difference?

There are NO verses that teach that ALL believers will persevere in the faith. Rather, Scripture teaches very clearly that ALL believers shall never perish.

I foreknew that calvinists would redefine "foreknew"!...
"If It Doesn't Fit, You Must Acquit...er...Fix It"

Question: When does God know you? God has to know you as a son before he predestines you.

So would you say that one is chosen to be a son?
Wouldn’t that indicate Gods province in choosing who is an heir?

2 Peter 3:9

Predestination are concerning those who are already saved. God has predestined saved people to the adoption which is the redemption of the body. It is a future event. It's when the saved believer will be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. You have to be in Christ to be predestinated to the adoption, no sooner.

Deuteronomy 30:6

I’m not quite following. One that believes and is saved becomes one of the predestined? Is that what you’re alluding to?

The above is from my post.

Several things here. First, absolutely God has made the first "move". For everyone, in fact. Rom 1:19-21 shows that God has revealed Himself of the order that NO ONE has any excuse. So much for Calvinistic doctrines here.

In fact, God also made the "second move", in the Garden, when He pursued both Adam and the woman after they rebelled, and all they could do was hide the best they could.

And when John 6:44 seems to get quoted, Calvinists seem never to remember to include v.45. So, I'll share it here.

45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

So, here, Jesus actually tells us who will "come to Him". Those who listened and learned from the Father. Very clear.

And, as everyone knows, or should know, listening and learning are volitional actions. A person chooses to do so.

Since you didn't mention any of the 5 points I made in my post, I wonder if you agreed or disagreed with any of them.

If you disagree, do you have clear verses to prove the Calvinist claims? Please share.

There is sufficient scripture that indicates an election of chosen people. Call it Calvinism if you want. It actually goes back to Augustine. My question has been and I’m still waiting for an answer is, was Christ’s death a complete and final propitiation for the atoment of sin or was it a potential one?

That’s what the Bible says. Predestination has to do with the redemption of the believer’s body not the salvation of the soul.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

What is the adoption?

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Predestination essentially means prior to. I don’t think your interpretation of these verses are accurate. Something cannot be predestined by a current or future event. it’s a paradox.

The idea that God predestined or elected people to be saved doesn't make sense, in every instance i have seen where being chosen or predestined it had to do mainly with roles or services of people, for instance this verse here In Jeremiah 1:5 God says, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you; before you were born, I sanctified you; and I ordained you a prophet to the nations.” This is one of those verses that a lot of people hate because it clearly brings to our attention the sovereignty and control of God.
This indicates God knew our dear friend here beforehand and predestined him but for what salvation? no, to be a prophet the office and role of a prophet.

Romans 8:29-30 states, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. again predestined but again predistined for salvation? no predistined to be conformed into the image of Christ. mind you this is what God demands of all humanity since the beginning it was already predistined that we are made in his image and that we conform into his image so this is nothing new but the difference is that we have Christ now who makes us into this image.

And if God preordained that the elect be saved and everyone else is set for damnation well that wouldn't be very fair now would it in fact no matter how you look at it that is playing favorites and last i checked God is no respecter of persons and he is a loving and fair and just God.
We can make the claim saying that because he is God his election is fair and just but is it really? how would you feel if you happened to be one of those people who were not elected? from the moment you were born no decision you ever made mattered because you were predestined for damnation because you were not one of the elect, through no choice of your own you came into existance through no choice of your own your fate was sealed and it is somehow fair and just.

But do you know what i think? I think saying that because he is God his election makes it fair and just is just a scape goat to make God fit into the predistination and election belief because the father i know is warm and kind loving and gentle he embodies everything that makes your heart bleed for him and quite frankly the father I know and the father I fell in love with just isn't like that he is fair and gives eveeryone the same treatment when it comes to salvation.

To behonest I think if anyone who believes in predestination and election had any idea how badly he wants just one lost soul, how very precious and how much just one child means to him how far he is willing to go for the sake of only one lost lamb they would know better than to even think to believe such a thing. he gave up his only son for us Jesus went through absolute hell and you know he would have done it a thousand times over for just one lost soul yes just one that is how far he is willing to go that is how much we mean to him that is how deep his love is.

It seems to me that predistination is not a lack of understanding of doctrine but a lack of understanding of his love and what we mean to him I mean anyone who is willing to go to such extremes for the sake of just one lost soul would not have predestined some to be saved while others not plain and simple