I don't understand

Rom 9: 11 ( For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth)
This verse shows that God has a purpose in the history of mankind and is aware of past, present, and future. Those elected are not elected because of anything that they do but simply because God has chosen them by calling them.

Rom 9: 14-16 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then, it is NOT of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
God is sovereign, all powerful, all knowing, just, and merciful. All creation is His and He can do whatever He wants with it. When living creatures ( animals, plants, fish, insects, etc.) were first created, they were created as adults with the ability to procreate like kind ( with the same characteristics as the parent). Living beings with a free will can either please God by obedience or displease Him by disobedience. Adam and Eve chose ( with the influence of the serpent) to disobey God and follow their own heart. It seems that since Adam and Eve were the ones that sinned, they only should be punished.

Romans 4: 15 "Because the law worketh wrath; for where no law is, there is no transgression.
What were the consequences of Adam and Eve eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? God had warned them that if they did, they would surely die. This knowledge is our conscience and we are all born with it. This conscience that we are born with lets us know right from wrong and we are all under the law. The tendency of mankind is to put what benefits them first even at the expense of someone else, so we are all sinners ( even before the commandments given to Moses) and we all are condemned to death as soon as we are born. The choices for God are: 1. Let justice prevail and all humans go to hell, or 2. Save all humans, or 3. Save a few.
If God condemned all humans, He would not be merciful. If God saved all humans, there would be lawlessness on earth and in heaven. God's only choice to preserve His justice and His mercy is to save a few. The few are not chosen because of anything they do but because of God's will. God's plan for the chosen is to provide forgiveness of sins through belief in Jesus Christ and sanctification of the heart through His Holy Spirit.

Rom 9: 19-21 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
The answer to the question is: Man was created with a free will and through Adam and Eve's sin, is born with the knowledge of good and evil and are therefore under law. Our actions are motivated by our hearts. It is our heart that is judged not our actions. 1 Cor 13: 1-13 explains that anything done without love in your heart is meaningless. Of course a perfect heart will produce good fruit. It is the Holy Spirit of God that perfects us by filling our hearts with agape love ( the same type of love shared by the Father and Son). When we are motivated by this love, we are obeying the Spirit of the Law and the fruit is: accomplishing the Father's will.

1 Peter 1: 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God, the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Elect means chosen before you are even born, and humanity's time line is a rerun for God, the Father. As God, He is able to manipulate events for His pleasure and as evidence to all created beings in heaven and on earth of His justice and mercy and power and love. To sanctify means to fix or repair to perfection in order to achieve the purpose for its creation. The Holy Spirit sanctifies us by filling our hearts with agape love and we obey His commandments because we make choices motivated by love ( the Spirit of the Law). The sprinkling of the blood of Jesus occurs when you put your trust in Jesus death for the forgiveness of sins. You are baptized in the name of the Father when you are chosen to receive His grace. You are baptized in the name of the Son when you put your trust in Jesus, and you are baptized in the name of the Holy Spirit when God's Spirit enters your heart and fills it with love.


1 Cor 1:9 God is faithful by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
It is the Father who calls us to be part of the spiritual body of His Son and a member of His Family. Through the Father's Holy Spirit, we are able to be One with the Father and Son because we share the same motivation, the same love, and the same line of communication as Jesus.


1 Cor 1: 26-31 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called; But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not , to bring to nothing things that are, THAT NO FLESH SHOULD GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE. But of (by) Him are ye in Christ Jesus,who of (by) God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption; That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
God chooses those that are called. His choice is not based on wisdom ( worldly), strength or might, status ( worldly or religious), or wealth. Paul is talking to lowly people and telling them that they are examples of the kind of people that God chooses. Those that are not chosen miss the boat completely because they want to take credit for their salvation whether it be because they walked the aisle or said a prayer or got baptized with water or attend church regularly or trusted in Jesus or try to be good enough. You might be doing all those things, but it is the Father who has changed you ( John 1: 13 Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.) and it is He that you should give glory and praise to as well as to Christ who is our God, Lord and Savior.

Eph 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ,
The Father of Christ is also Christ's God. He is also our God and Father because when we receive His Holy Spirit, we become part of Christ's spiritual body and are privey to His spiritual blessings.

Eph 1: 4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him, in love.
Our Father chose us to be in Him ( as part of Christ's spiritual body) before the creation of our world. We are holy ( set apart from the rest of humanity for our Father's purpose) and will stand before Him without blame because of the love He has given us. We will have obeyed the Spirit of His Law when the motivation for all our actions is love.

Eph 1: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
As part of the Son's body, we become the Father's children. He predestined us unto this adoption of sons by Jesus Christ, not because of anything we have done, but according to the good pleasure of His will.

Eph 1: 6-7 To the praise of the glory of His grace, through which He hath made us acceptable in the Beloved; In whom we have redemption through His blood for the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.
With great joy we praise and glorify our Father for His grace in making us accepted as part of Jesus' body in whom we have redemption through His blood for the forgiveness of sins. The Father has erased our sins and perfected our hearts.

Eph 1: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will.
We are predestined to fulfill God's purpose. Everything works out according to His will. As part of Jesus' body, we will inherit His blessings.

SORRY ABOUT THE DUPLIICATION

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
No man can come to Jesus unless he is chosen by the Father. The Greek word for "draw" is the same one used to describe in Acts: 16 what the masters of the possessed woman did to Paul and Silas after they cast out her demon: they drew (dragged) them into the market place. They were not enticed to go but were compelled to go. Once the Father chooses you, you become a different person and you willingly believe and trust in Jesus and seek to please the Father.

John 6: 65 And HE said, Therefore said I unto you that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of (by) my Father.
The desire to come to Christ is given by the Father.

Rom 8: 28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
Those that are born again know that God has a purpose for their lives and that He is in control and His will is our reality. The Father knows the history in the time-line of human existence and has predestinated some to be conformed to the image of His Son. That image is to love the Father with all your mind, heart, and soul and your neighbors as yourself. Also, Jesus' bread was to do the Father's will and that should be our bread as well. You are baptized in the name of the Father when you are predestined and called by Him. When you are called by the Father, you will be baptized in the name of His Son for the remission of sins and by justified. When you are glorified, you are baptized in the name of His Holy Spirit and perfected.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
All who the Father chooses will whole heartedly trust in Jesus , be filled with His Holy Spirit and have love for God and man.

John 17:11 Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
When baptized in the name of the Father, you are chosen by the Father and will receive His Holy Spirit and posses the same love in your heart that is shared by the Father and Son. We become One with the Father and Son because we have the same Spirit as a source of communication and knowledge from them.

Eph 2: 8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God- Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Our salvation is a gift from called and is not earned, lest any man should boast that he got saved because of his decisions or efforts. Man cannot give himself any credit at all for his salvation. All the credit goes to the Father who willed it and achieved it through Christ (who sits at the Father's right hand and does the Father's will). When we are born again, we become new creatures and are placed in the body of Christ and obey the Spirit of the Law which is to do everything with love in your heart which is what the Father wanted from the beginning.

Psalm 105: 43 And He brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness,
God chooses and experiences emotions.

Psalm 135: 4 For the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto Himself and Israel for His peculiar treasure.
Another example of God choosing.

Deut 7: 6-8 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God; the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself, above all people who are upon the face of the earth. The Lord did not set His love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people.
God chose to favor a people. The people had no influence on His choice.

Matt 24: 22, 24, 31 And except those days should be shortened ( talking about the tribulation), there should no flesh be saved; but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened. For there shall arise false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The elects are those chosen by God who will be given His Holy Spirit so that they will fulfill His purpose. A prophet is one that can communicate with God and there will be many false ones. God communicates through His Holy Spirit with every Christian. In the last day Christ will gather all those that are in Him ( part of His spiritual body) from all over the world and throughout all ages.

1 Peter 5: 13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, greeteth you;
All members of the Church are chosen by God.

Col 3: 12-14 Put on, therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, tender mercies, ... And above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfectness.
The saved are the elect of God and should show the fruit that comes with love.

John 15: 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,
Jesus is telling His apostles that He is the one that chose them to follow Him, not they. The Father through Jesus is the one who chose because the Son does the Father's will and we are also chosen to propagate the good news of salvation and truth.

John 17: 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name; those that thou gavest me I have kept , and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Jesus kept the apostles that were chosen in the name of the Father except for Judas who was predestined in scripture.

John 17: 9 I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Those that are chosen by the Father to be part of Jesus' spiritual body belong to the Father because all contain the Father's Spirit including Jesus. All that posses the Holy Spirit of the Father belong to the heavenly family of God. The saved are given to the Son by the Father.

Acts 13: 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Salvation is not only for the Jews but also for the Gentiles. Those that were predestined to eternal life believed. To be ordained to eternal life means to be set apart to achieve God's purpose and will for you.

If you are born again, then you are one of the Elect.
God know you would be born again, (Foreknowledge) before you were born.

In other words.......... you choose to believe in Jesus.......and your "faith is accepted by God".........and He then "justifies you by your faith".

That is YOUR CHOICE.
You decide if you BELIEVE in Jesus..........

God, already knows if you will, or if you wont.........but He does not choose this for you.....>He only KNOWS if you will believe in Jesus or not.


There are CULTs, that will lie to you, and tell you that God causes you to go to heaven, or causes you to go to hell.
These cults are a part of the "predestined elect" heresy.
Never believe them.
Never listen to them.
Avoid them, as you would avoid the Devil, as he will send them to you to make you think that you have no FREE WILL.
They are LIARS.
Do not listen to them.

It's not about the Father choosing who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Everyone is condemned because we are all sinners. The choices for God are 1: He condemns everyone and we all go to hell. That would mean that God has no mercy. 2: He saves everyone and we all go to heaven. That would mean that there is no law and order and no justice in the Father's kingdom. 3: the Father saves an elect few throughout human history.
I'm going to post a lot of Scripture on Election. You read it and make up your own mind.

It's not about the Father choosing who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Everyone is condemned because we are all sinners. The choices for God are 1: He condemns everyone and we all go to hell. That would mean that God has no mercy. 2: He saves everyone and we all go to heaven. That would mean that there is no law and order and no justice in the Father's kingdom. 3: the Father saves an elect few throughout human history.
I'm going to post a lot of Scripture on Election. You read it and make up your own mind.

Who are the Elect of God? In the simplest terms - they are the ones chosen by God. There are two groups referred to in the Scriptures. Elect Angels and Elect humans.

1Ti_5:21 I charge thee in the sight of God, and Christ Jesus, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality.
Col_3:12 Put on therefore, as God's elect, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, longsuffering;

Elect and non-Elect Angels were referred to in the battle in Heaven. A Third of the angels fell (non-Elect) and a two-thirds of them did not fall (Elect). The two-thirds that did not fall, were said to have been upheld in Righteousness by the power of God. There are Elect human beings and non-Elect.

You have already noticed, that the great divide, on the subject of Salvation, is basically, between those who follow the precepts of Jacobus Arminius or those of John Calvin. Thus we have the terms Arminian or Calvinist. I prefer to call this divide "Free Will vs. Free Grace".

The Free Will side - basically states that each fallen person, has the ability to choose Christ (Free Will). Therefore, they deny that man is in anyway "Depraved" - spiritually speaking. That when a person chooses Christ, as their Saviour, they then receive the blessings and Salvation that is in Jesus Christ. Therefore, their own will, is the determinate factor in their salvation.

The Free Grace side says - Due to the fall of Adam - Man became "dead" in trespasses and sin and therefore no longer possessed a working spirit. His spirit was dead and he would also experience physical death. Because of man's sinful nature, there was nothing in him, that would desire to choose Christ because he loved sin. Therefore spiritual inability or "Depravity" had taken control of their life. To rectify this, God sends the Holy Spirt to His Elect, at the appointed time and renews their spirit. That person experiences the New Birth of John 3:3-9. Having their spirit renewed and the love and control of sin broken, they now were able to understand the Gospel message and Repent and turn to Christ. Therefore, Free Grace is bestowed upon God's Elect - The ones chosen before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4)

Both sides claim that Salvation is Unmerited Grace.

I agree with DavidTree's post. Read the Book of John - praying always, that the Lord might illuminate you with the Truth.

Take care....

I would like to know more about these fallen angles if you have time to post it. As for Calvinist and Aminian's I don't anything about them and really don't, I want to be a Christian first foremost and forever.

Thanks for your reply.

As to the subject of Angelology (Word study of Angels). Don't rush into these kind of things. You need to understand fully whom Jesus Christ is and whom you are placing your trust. There are many Christ's in this world. Some see him as sent from God but deny His Eternal Sonship. Some think him a historical person but deny whom he really is. Some see him as a Prophet but not God.

Jesus Christ was not just a great man, who came and died for sinners - He was and is, the God-man. Equally God and equally man. The perfect union of Deity and Created being. Get firmly rooted in your understanding of the Saviour. then progress outward into the other subjects. The Whole Bible points to the Saviour - Jesus Christ our Lord - He is the Word and the Word is Truth.

However, I will not leave you completely in the dark, as to Angelology. Here is the simple gist of the war in Heaven:

God created Angels as part of His Created works. They were Extraterrestrial beings and God made man, a Terrestrial being. The Angels were God's Administrators and Heavenly Servants. There were two types of Angels - The Seraphim and the Cherubim. Over them, were three higher Angels. They were known as Archangels - which in the Greek language means: First or Chief Angel. Some attribute more than three having this title. However, without going into a lot of details, we are going to stick with three. The only one called an Archangel in Scripture is Michael. The other Two are: Lucifer and Gabriel but not called such in Scripture but assumed to be so.

Some teach, that these three, are associated with the Three Persons of the Godhead. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Michael (Meaning: Who is like God), is associated with the Father - Lucifer (Meaning: Morning Star), is associated with the Son - Gabriel (Meaning: Strength of God), is associated with the Holy Spirit.

Lucifer, was considered the most beautiful of all the Archangels. He had a grand position before God; until the day that "pride" was found in him, thus, he sinned against God. He began to claim he could reign and rule in the place of God. At that point, Lucifer became known as the Devil, which in the Greek language means: "Accuser" or "slanderer". He is also called Satan, which in the Greek means: "Adversary of God".

There is a war and God in His Sovereign control over all things, "permits" one-third of the Angels to follow the Devil, in this rebellion. Of course they failed - as nothing can stand against the almighty God. Scripture says: That He is God and He does all of His good pleasure and none can resist His will. When the Devil and His Demons failed, they were cast down to Earth.

As you go through your studies, of God's Holy Word, I hope you will always remember this:

Our God is totally Sovereign in ALL things. He did not Create and then sit back and do nothing. He governs over His Creation millisecond to millisecond. Nothing has ever happened, is happening or will happen - that God does not either cause or permit.

Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create calamity. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me;
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;

Pro_16:9 A man's heart plans his way; But Jehovah is directing his steps.

Jer_10:23 O Jehovah, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walks to direct his steps.

REMEMBER our God is Sovereign. Read all Scriptures with this in mind and you will do well. Run from any man that suggests man can do something or decide something apart from God's will. Everything about this life, is to bring about God's Holy Plan. For His own purpose. For His own Glory and the Glory of His Son. All things were Planned by God from Eternity past before time began.

Read the Book of John. Why? Because John describes Jesus Christ as the God-man. The Eternal Son of God.

Thanks I will pick up the book of John. I will finish Matthew without any more posts and then pick up John.
KenA

If you are born again, then you are one of the Elect.
God know you would be born again, (Foreknowledge) before you were born.

In other words.......... you choose to believe in Jesus.......and your "faith is accepted by God".........and He then "justifies you by your faith".

That is YOUR CHOICE.
You decide if you BELIEVE in Jesus..........

God, already knows if you will, or if you wont.........but He does not choose this for you.....>He only KNOWS if you will believe in Jesus or not.


There are CULTs, that will lie to you, and tell you that God causes you to go to heaven, or causes you to go to hell.
These cults are a part of the "predestined elect" heresy.
Never believe them.
Never listen to them.
Avoid them, as you would avoid the Devil, as he will send them to you to make you think that you have no FREE WILL.
They are LIARS.
Do not listen to them.

There are some folks here who understand that universe is a pool shot. God struck the cue ball once and everything that happens happens. They are usually called calvinist or reformed. Because of their belief in predestination, they end up concluding God is responsible for everything, that includes evil and the elected and damned.

The ones that says the second age stuff, I am not too familiar with, but I suspect it has to do with the Sons of God in Genesis. I interpret them as angelic while others say the are chosen men of God. Too fill in the blanks, I believe they had to make a second age.

Most of the doctrines here come from imagination trying to fit Scriptural truth. Best stick with a sober reading of the bible.

I do not believe the pool shot so I guess I am not a calvinist I just want to be a christian