Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

Actually, the fact that the passage is so filled with things which contradict other things Jesus Himself said and things written by Bible authors who were inspired by the Jesus' Spirit...proves it cannot but be a parable. For instance, Jesus told Solomon to tell us the dead don't know anything...which means Jesus telling a story in which dead people know things should be an immediate sign to anyone who believes ALL the Scripture that He's speaking in parables, which Matthew 13:34-35 KJV said Jesus would do as a fulfillment of the OT prophecy in Psalms 78:1-2 KJV.

BTW, the idea that "proper names" mentioned in passages means nothing. Jotham used proper names of trees (Olive, Fig, etc) in what is clearly understood to be "Jotham's parable of the trees". The reason Jesus said "Lazarus" is because very soon the real Lazarus would be raised and the Jews would go away in unbelief plotting to kill them all, as a fulfillment of what Abraham said in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

I really love how the Bible is so harmonious when the OT says Jesus would come and speak parables like the Rich Man and Lazarus and the NT confirms the OT prediction.

The rich man likely lived an evil life. Lazarus was likely a righteous man.

How does one blow on a horn with a sword in their mouth? smile

I'm pretty sure when I asked you if the text said "many" or "all" of the bodies of the saints which slept, you never answered....because the answer so undermines your position, friend.

The dead do not know what is going on in our world. Isaiah 14 makes it clear they know what is going on in their world. Scripture is progressive in nature.

When one compromises on any part of Scripture, it can become of bucket of sloppy exegesis. When one cannot seperate Jesus from Micheal, they have arrived and actually placed their foot on the slippery slope.

Hi, Ken, if someone accused your father of being a murderous tyrant who tortured people in ways too incredibly sadistic to comprehend, would you not feel a need to speak in defense of him?

If you've seen Jesus, you've seen the Father, and Jesus would NEVER burn people alive for all eternal ages in flames of eternal torment.

You're adding to Scripture. There is not "our world/their world"...the dead simply cease to be. Solomon says the dead know nothing, period.

Isaiah 14 where?

Oh,
Matthew 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

The text cleary says many. I think from historical interpretation that all the spirits(Eph 4), souls of the O.T. saints were moved to paradise. We know that paradise was moved to heaven because that is where Paul was caught up to in some form(II Cor 12) and that is where many of the saints will come down from at the Second Coming.

I would not defend him and hope he repented before death.

I already posted that many times here.

Oh, so now we're going to mix the symbolism of John with the literalism of Paul?

Hermeneutics, baby...let's utilize good ones

What if he's falsely accused? You would not speak up in his defense?

You don't know what you're talking about. The teaching that Michael is Jesus was once mainstream and taught by Spurgeon, Clarke, Henry, and COUNTLESS others for many years in Christianity, a fact of which you were in complete ignorance until just now and I defy you to say otherwise. Did you know this was taught for many many years as mainstream doctrine? Then why shoot your mouth off without first thoroughly investigating the facts? This is how erroneous ideas are kept alive in the church because people repeat popular ideas without THINKING for ourselves, right?

It wasn't until the JWs began using this doctrine to "prove" Jesus wasn't eternally God that mainstream Christianity began to distance itself from this doctrine.

There’s that bucket I was referring to.

The Rich Man in the Gospel mentioned by Jesus Christ Our Lord shows us that the love of money is the root of all evil. As St. Paul wrote: "For the love of money is the root of all of evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." (1 Tim 6:10). He shows us that, if we see a poor man sorrowing and suffering, but feel no compassion and Christian Love toward him, the Love of God - a metaphor for the Spirit of God - does not dwell in our hearts. As St. John the Apostle writes: "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?" (1 Jn 3:17)

And if the Spirit of God doesn't dwell in our hearts, how can we go to Heaven? Hence, the Rich Man had to go to hell. And the mortal sin for which he was tormented in fire was his Greed. These things are written in the Scriptures so that we may not love money and our selves too much, but may rather love God and love others, so that Christ's Spirit of Love may dwell in our hearts by His Grace.

Because Dives loved money, like Judas, he loved neither God nor neighbor truly, and thus despised Poor Lazarus, and so the *Poor Rich Man* is now burning in hell for all eternity, and was sentenced there at his Private Judgment. At the General Judgment which will take place on the Last Day after the Resurrection of the Body, the sentence will be confirmed. At Death, our soul will go to Heaven or Hell, or the place of purification. After the Final Judgment, the body will be re-united to the soul and will follow its judgment.

Similarly, in Revelation, we see the Souls of the Just are alive in Heaven, and only awaiting the Final Resurrection of the Body:

"9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed."(Rev 6:9-11).

Please list the contradictions of Jesus in this new thread and here, thanks.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...st-the-contradictions-of-jesus-thanks.205031/

Church Fathers Eph 4:8

"4. Of Him it is said, He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, He gave gifts unto men. What is, He led captivity captive? He conquered death. What is, He led captivity captive? The devil was the author of death, and the devil was himself by the Death of Christ led captive. He ascended up on high. What do we know higher than heaven? Visibly and before the eyes of His disciples He ascended into heaven. This we know, this we believe, this we confess. He gave gifts unto men. What gifts? The Holy Spirit. He who gives such a Gift, what is He Himself? For great is God's mercy; He gives a Gift equal to Himself; for His Gift is the Holy Spirit, and the Whole Trinity, Father and Son and Holy Spirit, is One God. What has the Holy Spirit brought us? Hear the Apostle; The love of God, says he, has been shed abroad in our hearts. Whence, you beggar, has the love of God been shed abroad in your heart? How, or wherein has the love of God been shed abroad in the heart of man? "

Sermon 78 on the New Testament
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/160378.htm

"22. In the next place, turning his address to the Lord Himself, You have gone up, he says, on high, You have led captivity captive, You have received gifts in men Psalm 67:18. Of this the Apostle thus makes mention, thus expounds in speaking of the Lord Christ: But unto each one of us, he says, is given grace after the measure of the giving of Christ: for which cause he says, He has gone up on high, He has led captive captivity, He has given gifts to men. Ephesians 4:7-8 ...And let it not move us that the Apostle making mention of that same testimony says not, You have received gifts in men; but, He has given gifts unto men. For he with Apostolic authority has spoken thus according to the faith that the Son is God with the Father. For in respect of this He has given gifts to men, sending to them the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of the Father and of the Son. But forasmuch as the self-same Christ is understood in His Body which is the Church, wherefore also His members are His saints and believers, whence to them is said, But you are the Body of Christ, and the members, 1 Corinthians 12:27 doubtless He has Himself also received gifts in men. Now Christ has gone up on high, and sits at the right hand of the Father: Mark 16:19 but unless He were here also on the earth, He would not thence have cried, Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? Acts 9:4 When the Same says Himself, Inasmuch as to one of My least you have done it, to Me you have done it: Matthew 25:40 why do we doubt that He receives in His members, the gifts which the members of Him receive?
"23. But what is, You have led captivity captive? Is it because He has conquered death, which was holding captive those over whom it reigned? Or has he called men themselves captivity, who were being held captive under the devil? Which thing's mystery even the title of that Psalm does contain, to wit, when the house was being built after the captivity: that is, the Church after the coming in of the Gentiles. Calling therefore those very men who were being held captive a captivity, as when the service is spoken of there are understood those that serve also, that same captivity he says by Christ has been led captive. For why should not captivity be happy, if even for a good purpose men may be caught? Whence to Peter has been said, From henceforth you shall catch men. Luke 5:10 Led captive therefore they are because caught, and caught because subjugated, being sent under that gentle yoke, Matthew 11:30 being delivered from sin whereof they were servants, and being made servants of righteousness Romans 6:18 whereof they were children. Whence also He is Himself in them, that has given gifts to men, and has received gifts in men. And thus in that captivity, in that servitude, in that chariot, under that yoke, there are not thousands of men lamenting, but thousands of men rejoicing. For the Lord is in them, in Sina, in the holy place.. ..
24. But what next does he adjoin? For they that believe not to dwell Psalm 67:18: or, as some copies have, For not believing to dwell: for what else are men not believing, but they that believe not? To whom this has been said, is not easy to perceive. For as though a reason were being given of the above words, when it had been said, You have led captivity captive, You have received gifts in men: there has been added in continuation, for they that believe not to dwell, that is, not believing that they should dwell. What is this? Of whom says he this? Did that captivity, before it passed into a good captivity, show whence it was an evil captivity? For through not believing they were possessed by the enemy, that works in the sons of unbelief: among whom you were sometime, while you were living among them. Ephesians 2:2 By the gifts therefore of His grace, He that has received gifts in men, has led captive that captivity. For they believed not that they should dwell. For faith has thence delivered them, in order that now believing they may dwell in the House of God, even they too becoming the House of God, and the Chariot of God, consisting of thousands of men rejoicing. "
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1801068.htm

"3. But, in truth, the passion of Christ was neither similar to the passion of the Æon, nor did it take place in similar circumstances. For the Æon underwent a passion of dissolution and destruction, so that she who suffered was in danger also of being destroyed. But the Lord, our Christ, underwent a valid, and not a merely accidental passion; not only was He Himself not in danger of being destroyed, but He also established fallen man by His own strength, and recalled him to incorruption. The Æon, again, underwent passion while she was seeking after the Father, and was not able to find Him; but the Lord suffered that He might bring those who have wandered from the Father, back to knowledge and to His fellowship. The search into the greatness of the Father became to her a passion leading to destruction; but the Lord, having suffered, and bestowing the knowledge of the Father, conferred on us salvation. Her passion, as they declare, gave origin to a female offspring, weak, infirm, unformed, and ineffective; but His passion gave rise to strength and power. For the Lord, through means of suffering, ascending into the lofty place, led captivity captive, gave gifts to men, and conferred on those that believe in Him the power to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and on all the power of the enemy, that is, of the leader of apostasy. Our Lord also by His passion destroyed death, and dispersed error, and put an end to corruption, and destroyed ignorance, while He manifested life and revealed truth, and bestowed the gift of incorruption. But their Æon, when she had suffered, established ignorance, and brought forth a substance without shape, out of which all material works have been produced — death, corruption, error, and such like. "
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103220.htm

"
66. Nor does it escape our notice that some copies have likewise, according to St. Luke: How much more shall your heavenly Father give a good gift to them that ask Him. This good gift is the grace of the Spirit, which the Lord Jesus shed forth from heaven, after having been fixed to the gibbet of the cross, returning with the triumphal spoils of death deprived of its power, as you find it written: Ascending up on high He led captivity captive, and gave good gifts to men. And well does he say gifts, for as the Son was given, of Whom it is written: Unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; Isaiah 9:6 so, too, is the grace of the Spirit given. But why should I hesitate to say that the Holy Spirit also is given to us, since it is written: The love of God is shed forth in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, Who is given to us. Romans 5:5 And since captive breasts certainly could not receive Him, the Lord Jesus first led captivity captive, that our affections being set free, He might pour forth the gift of divine grace.

67. And He said well led captivity captive. For the victory of Christ is the victory of liberty, which won grace for all, and inflicted wrong on none. So in the setting free of all no one is captive. And because in the time of the Lord's passion wrong alone had no part, which had made captive all of whom it had gained possession, captivity itself turning back upon itself was made captive, not now attached to Belial but to Christ, to serve Whom is liberty. For he who is called in the Lord as a servant is the Lord's freedman. 1 Corinthians 7:22

"
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/34021.htm

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/230111.htm
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102188.htm

"34. Paul the apostle also says, To each of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ; and then, that he might show that by the gift of Christ he meant the Holy Spirit, he has gone on to add, Wherefore He says, He has ascended up on high, He has led captivity captive, and has given gifts to men. And every one knows that the Lord Jesus, when He had ascended into heaven after the resurrection from the dead, gave the Holy Spirit, with whom they who believed were filled, and spoke with the tongues of all nations. And let no one object that he says gifts, not gift: for he quoted the text from the Psalm. And in the Psalm it is read thus, You have ascended up on high, You have led captivity captive, You have received gifts in men. For so it stands in many mss ., especially in the Greek mss ., and so we have it translated from the Hebrew. The apostle therefore said gifts, as the prophet did, not gift. But whereas the prophet said, You have received gifts in men, the apostle has preferred saying, He gave gifts to men: and this in order that the fullest sense may be gathered from both expressions, the one prophetic, the other apostolic; because both possess the authority of a divine utterance. For both are true, as well that He gave to men, as that He received in men. He gave to men, as the head to His own members: He Himself that gave, received in men, no doubt as in His own members; on account of which, namely, His own members, He cried from heaven, Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? And of which, namely, His own members, He says, Since you have done it to one of the least of these that are mine, you have done it unto me. Christ Himself, therefore, both gave from heaven and received on earth. And further, both prophet and apostle have said gifts for this reason, because many gifts, which are proper to each, are divided in common to all the members of Christ, by the Gift, which is the Holy Spirit. For each severally has not all, but some have these and some have those; although all have the Gift itself by which that which is proper to each is divided to Him, i.e. the Holy Spirit. For elsewhere also, when he had mentioned many gifts, All these, he says, works that one and the self-same Spirit, dividing to each severally as He will. And this word is found also in the Epistle to the Hebrews, where it is written, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, and with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost. And so here, when he had said, He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, He gave gifts to men, he says further, But that He ascended, what is it but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things. And He gave some apostles, some prophets, and some evangelists, and some pastors and doctors. (This we see is the reason why gifts are spoken of; because, as he says elsewhere, Are all apostles? Are all prophets? etc.) And here he has added, For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ. This is the house which, as the Psalm sings, is built up after the captivity; since the house of Christ, which house is called His Church, is built up of those who have been rescued from the devil, by whom they were held captive. But He Himself led this captivity captive, who conquered the devil. And that he might not draw with him into eternal punishment those who were to become the members of the Holy Head, He bound him first by the bonds of righteousness, and then by those of might. The devil himself, therefore, is called captivity, which He led captive who ascended up on high, and gave gifts to men, or received gifts in men. "
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/130115.htm