Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

I do believe in personal revelations from God, but God quotes scripture too. “It is written…” is not to be taken lightly. There’s nothing about the pre-tribulation rapture in the Bible. That’s a big red flag in my honest opinion.

Which part you disagree with? There is obviously 3 stages of the first resurrection. Scripture says those in Christ will rise first indicating those who rise for condemnation is of another resurrection.

There are a few post-tribbers here and there are several threads about their bizarre ideas already in existence. We need a separate section for "Bizarre Ideas".

Had to think about your last question for a moment. From what I understand about both, I believe I’m dispensationalist. So what exactly happens in a post trib scenario? Do we go up and then come right back down to reign with Christ? I’ve heard of the dignitaries being met outside the gate to be escorted into the city. I also see a lot of the groom preparing a place for his bride to be taken away to live in the Father’s house. Looking forward to reading your explanation of which you believe, and why.

Revelation 20:4-6
English Standard Version

4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

This is still of the 3rd stage. Satan is released because there will still be people in the millennium who reject God. God uses Satan to round them up for one final judgement.

This is a subject upon which you will find no consensus, and any attempt to "prove" one way or another will be met by equal attempts to "prove" the opposite. So I'll just state my position.

I'm of the mid/pre-wrath persuasion, I believe the events of the seals and trumpets are judgements and that we will see those. The events of the bowls are specifically identified as wrath and no we will not see them.

BUT - Final answer -

Pray for pre
Prepare for post
And any other time, like right now, would be fine with me.

What criteria are you using to create different groups? I’m just using important markers and qualifiers such as being resurrected for the millennial kingdom due to being beheaded for having the testimony of Christ in the great tribulation. That’s only so many people. Anyone resurrected after that seems like a different group to me.

Those with "bizarre ideas" are those who teach a pre-trib rapture of the church.

Obviously???
The Scripture speaks of one resurrection of all saints and it happens in a twinkling of an eye ate the last trump.
There is a second resurrection that is of the lost at the end of the 1000 year reign of Jesus on the earth and they will suffer the second death.

Not for specifying a place in the TIME line of events but separation of peoples in death and resurrection

Sorry, but do not understand your point.

Paul said that the saints will not be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first and the man of sin claims to be God which happens in the middle of the 7 years period.

The reason for this is because as long as the world has salvation available to them the saints will remain on earth to represent the truth.

The falling away first is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel which the nations came together as one and stopped the preaching of the Gospel on a world wide level and only the new age movement interpretation of all religions can be taught which causes the religion of Islam to rebel and a terrible war between Islam and the world happens which causes the world to turn to the New Age Christ as the answer to have peace on earth.

The saints are on earth when the antichrist claims to be God which the antichrist, New Age Christ blasphemes against God and His tabernacle which if the saints were not on earth he would not blaspheme against God and His truth for the truth would not be represented on earth.

Which the New Age Christ is telling the world to not follow the Christian religion for it is false and there is no personal God and Jesus is not Lord and Savior.

Which the antichrist will be of the new age movement who interpret the Bible according to the occult and evolution and people are still evolving to be spiritual, and Jesus is not Lord and Savior but a good teacher and love and evolved to be an ascended master, and acknowledge no personal God but honor the God of forces or the power of nature the evolutionary process as their higher power, and the New Age Christ is the final teacher.

God warns the saints of the new age movement and the time will come when the world will only want to hear the Bible according to the new age movement( 1 Timothy 5:1-5; 2 Timothy 4:2-4).

The New Age Christ will establish peace in the Middle East and be a great man of peace and many people will follow him and he will push the new age movement until the world rebels against God which is the time the world will not want to hear the Bible according to the truth.

When he claims to be God by harnessing the power of nature then he will rule for the last three and one half years.

The false prophet will do miracles in the sight of people to convince the world that the New Age Christ did evolve through nature and shared this power with the false prophet and will share this power with all who follow him.

The saints will then be able to be gathered unto Christ.

But the Bible says that he shall make war against the saints and prevail against them.

And they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years.

And when he shall accomplish to scatter the power of the holy people all things are finished.

Which then comes the end when the Son shall deliver the kingdom up to the Father and then He will put down all authority, and power.

Then the wrath of God will be upon the world.

God's wrath is not in the 7 years period for the first three and one half years the world still has salvation available to them so His wrath would not there.

During the last three and one half years the beast has power to rule for three and one half years so His wrath would not be there because the beast could not rule unless God allows it.

The wrath of God is after the 7 years period and the tribulation is for the last three and one half years.

The Bible says there is only 2 resurrections, one before the millennial reign of Christ of the saints, and one after the millennial reign of the dead.

There is not 2 resurrections of the saints.

Jesus said that if a person misses the first resurrection they have to go to the second resurrection so once the resurrection happens then there is nobody Gentile that can receive salvation so if it were pre-trib then the world would not be able to be saved but for the first three and one half years the world can still receive salvation so the saints are still on earth and they will all be caught up at the same time.

It appears as if the saints will go through the 7 years period.

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

When the resurrection does not happen pre-trib it will overthrow the faith of some people and they will end up following the new age movement interpretation of the Bible.

Pre-trib is a dangerous doctrine because when it does not happen many people will stop being a Christian and favor what the world is doing.

The criteria is the stages listed in post 15.

Anyone resurrected after that are of a different group, correct. That is the resurrection of the damned.

Don't you believe that you will never die? If you never die, how are you dead in the ground to be resurrected?

And if you say your spirit goes and comes back how can your 'spirit' receive immortality and/or a glorified body if neither 'flesh and blood' nor corruption can be made IMMORTAL?

We all know that a body resting in the dust of the earth suffers corruption and since corruption can't inherit immortality, then how can it be saints that are resurrected?


1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


2816. kléronomeó ►
Strong's Concordance
kléronomeó: to inherit
Original Word: κληρονομέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: kléronomeó
Phonetic Spelling: (klay-ron-om-eh'-o)
Definition: to inherit
Usage: I inherit, obtain (possess) by inheritance, acquire.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2816 klēronoméō (from 2818 /klēronómos, "a specific allotment of inheritance, apportioned by casting lots") – properly, to assign inheritance (inherit) by lot. See 2818 (klēronomos) for more discussion on sonship and inheritance.

2816 /klēronoméō ("to assign inheritance by lot-casting") is used in relation to believers claiming their earthly inheritance assigned (alloted) by the Lord.

[The believer receives their opportunity and reward for inheritance by divine-lot (cf. Eph 1:11, Gk text), which apportions the possessions of the Father for their gift of inheritance.]

2. universally, "to receive the portion assigned to one, receive an allotted portion, receive as one's own or as a possession; to become partaker of, to obtain" (cf. English inherit) (as φημην, Polybius 18, 38 (55), 8; τήν ἐπ' εὐσέβεια δόξαν, 15, 22, 3); in Biblical Greek everywhere with the accusative of the thing; so very frequent in the O. T. in the phrase κληρονομουν γῆν and τήν γῆν, of the occupation of the land of Canaan by the Israelites, as Leviticus 20:24; Deuteronomy 4:22, 26; Deuteronomy 6:1, etc. But as the Israelites after taking possession of the land were harassed almost perpetually by their hostile neighbors, and even driven out of the country for a considerable period, it came to pass that the phrase was transferred to denote the tranquil and stable possession of the holy land crowned with all divine blessings, an experience which pious Israelites were to expect under the Messiah: Psalm 24:13 (); Psalm 36:9, 11, 22, 29, 34 () Alex.; Isaiah 60:21; Tobit 4:12; ἐκ δευτέρας κληρονομήσουσι τήν γῆν, Isaiah 61:7; hence, it became a formula denoting to partake of eternal salvation in the Messiah's kingdom: Matthew 5:5 (4) (from Psalm 36:11 ()), where see Bleek. ζωήν αἰώνιον, Matthew 19:29; Mark 10:17; Luke 10:25; Luke 18:18; τήν βασιλείαν, Matthew 25:34; βασιλείαν Θεοῦ, 1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Corinthians 15:50; Galatians 5:21; σωτηρίαν, Hebrews 1:14; τάς ἐπαγγελίας, Hebrews 6:12; ἀφθαρσίαν, 1 Corinthians 15:50; ταῦτα (Rec. πάντα), Revelation 21:7; ὄνομα, Hebrews 1:4; τήν εὐλογίαν, Hebrews 12:17; 1 Peter 3:9. (Compare: κατα(κληρονομέω.)


5356. phthora
Strong's Concordance
phthora: destruction, corruption
Original Word: φθορά, ᾶς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: phthora
Phonetic Spelling: (fthor-ah')
Definition: destruction, corruption
Usage: corruption, destruction, decay, rottenness, decomposition.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5356 phthorá (from 5351 /phtheírō) – destruction from internal corruption (deterioration, decay); "rottenness, perishableness, corruption, decay, decomposition" (Souter). See 5351 (phteírō).

1. corruption, destruction, perishing (opposed to γένεσις, origin, often in Plato, Aristotle, Plutarch; opposed to σωτηρία, Plato, Phileb., p. 35 e.; for שַׁחַת, Psalm 102:4 (); Jonah 2:7): Romans 8:21 (on which see δουλεία); 2 Peter 2:12a (some (cf. R. V. marginal reading) take φθορά here actively: εἰς φθοράν, to destroy); ἐν φθορά, in a state of corruption or decomposition (of the body at burial), 1 Corinthians 15:42; by metonymy, that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable, opposed to ἀφθαρσία, 1 Corinthians 15:50; in the Christian sense, the loss of salvation, eternal misery (which elsewhere is called ἀπώλεια), Colossians 2:22 (see ἀπόχρησις); opposed to ζωή αἰώνιος, Galatians 6:8, cf. Schott ad loc. 2. in the N. T. in an ethical sense, corruption i. e. moral decay: 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:12{b} (some take the word here actively (R. V. text in their destroying), others refer it to 1 above), 2 Peter 2:19; with τῆς ζωῆς added, Wis. 14:12.



861. aphtharsia
Strong's Concordance
aphtharsia: incorruptibility
Original Word: ἀφθαρσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: aphtharsia
Phonetic Spelling: (af-thar-see'-ah)
Definition: incorruptibility
Usage: indestructibility, incorruptibility; hence: immortality.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 861 aphtharsía – properly, no-corruption (unable to experience deterioration); incorruptibility (not perishable), i.e. lacking the very capacity to decay or constitutionally break down. See 862a (aphthartos).


ἀφθαρσία, ἀφθαρσίας, ἡ (ἄφθαρτος, cf. ἀκαθαρσία) (Tertullian and subsequent writingsincorruptibilitas, Vulg.incorruptio (andincorruptela)), incorruption, perpetuity: τοῦ κόσμου, Philo de incorr. round. § 11; it is ascribed to τό θεῖον in Plutarch, Aristotle, c. 6; of the body of man exempt from decay after the resurrection, 1 Corinthians 15:42 (ἐν ἀφθαρσία, namely, ὄν), 50, 53f; of a blessed immortality (Wis. 2:23 Wis. 6:19; 4 Macc. 17:12), Romans 2:7; 2 Timothy 1:10. τινα ἀγαπᾶν ἐν ἀφθαρσία to love one with never diminishing love, Ephesians 6:24 (cf. Meyer at the passage The word seems to have the meaning purity, sincerity, incorruptness in Titus 2:7 Rec.st).

In post 15 you clearly have 3 stages.

First Resurrection
1. Jesus
2. The Church age
3. Those martyred in the tribulation

Second Resurrection
1st and only: The damned

I really like the idea, Glen55, but is it biblical?

They are KINDS of resurrection not times as in 'on the last day'.



Those of the FIRST resurrection have RECEIVED the gift of salvation (saved). They pass through death they don't remain in death. They are raised in glory. They receive their immortality. They rise to heaven they return on horses.

Those of the Second resurrection, DID NOT RECEIVE the gift of salvation before they died (unsaved), so they don't 'pass through death', they REMAIN in the dust of the earth. When they rise up, they still don't receive immortality as they must wait until the GWTJ to either receive their immortality or 2nd death.

Unless it says which group they are in and it does.

Revelation 20:5
5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

Now it comes down to interpretation. It either plainly says those dead who did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete are the first resurrection or you must have a different interpretation.

If I say a group is resurrected then immediately afterwards say it’s the first resurrection what does that mean from your perspective?

I am definitely a believer in a post-tribulation rapture, but that was not always the case.

When I first got saved, I was pretty much scripturally illiterate in that I really hadn't read the Bible for myself.

The "church" (more like a cult, in retrospect, for many reasons) that I initially attended after getting saved fully believed in and preached a pre-tribulation rapture of the saints. Ignorantly and naively trusting them at that time, I followed suit and believed in the same. I even had a bumper sticker on the back of my car which read:

WARNING: In case of rapture, this car will be unmanned.

Then the unexpected happened.

As I began to read the Bible for myself, God started speaking to me.

Actually, there were times when he spoke to me in the form of questions, and one of those questions was in relation to "the rapture".

Without going into all of the details in this specific post, God instructed me to read the entire Bible from cover to cover six times in a row (I've read it many more times since then, as this was more than 30 years ago). When I obeyed him, he showed me how the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture to heaven is totally false from every angle imaginable. In fact, that heretical doctrine (and it is heresy) is really just the cherry on the cake of an even bigger heresy.

Anyhow, to kick off our discussion, may I ask you a question?

Where, in your understanding, are the saints getting "raptured" to and for what purpose (s)?

I have a few errands to run right now, but I'm definitely more than willing to engage you and others in a civil and respectful conversation on this topic.

Ttyl.

I believe you mean "non-rapturer" rather than "non-tribber" as the Great Tribulation is very much a Biblically evident concept but various rapture models are not.

Let's explore your interpretation and from there I can offer feedback:

1) Define rapture. Do you consider a rapture to be a skyward removal into a protected space (is the skyward removal of the two witnesses a rapture)?

2) What kind of rapture are you proposing? (e.g. a skyward removal of all of the Church? Or a skyward removal of all saints realized and unrealized?)

3) Where in scripture do you place the Great Tribulation?

4) Do you see a difference between Wrath and Tribulation? (Do you also see a difference between God's Wrath and other wraths?)

5) Is the Great Tribulation the only tribulation that occurs during Revelation?

6) Where in scripture do you place your proposed rapture? (e.g. Rev 14:14?)

7) Many pre-trib models are tied with Dispensationalism. Do you believe Dispensationalism is a scripturally supported concept?

8) Do you see the two resurrections (righteous and wicked) as types or instances?