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"That's a stupid question" is not "You're a stupid person."

I only used the term rabbi becaused they are called that it is just another term for teacher but regardless whether I call them that or lets just for the sake of argument call them hebrew teachers you still went to them and regardless of your reason for doing so if you did it then you cannot say you do not accept the testimony of man or else you are a hypocrite because you wanted to prove me wrong so badly you went seeking the testimony of man.

Now as for proving me wrong in hebrew perhaps you either did not read it or simply refuse to accept it or maybe I am not the one with eye damage but the hebrew teacher clearly replied to me saying that yes it does indeed techincally mean a ball so no you did not prove me wrong in hebrew even if you refuse to accept that your person responded to you using words that refer to rotation none of what he said even romotely had to do with anything to do with flatness so again no you didn't prove me wrong in hebrew.

And now as for rebuking in english you can cling to english as it is the only way your supposed flat earth even remotely has any chance because you know as well as I that in hebrew you lose this debate and sadly for you the word of God was originally written in hebrew so therefore you lose this debate even if you cling to the english language but go ahead and keep trying

I'm really puzzled where you are getting this page from.

". 3. trace, mark out , a circle, c. על over the face of deep Pr 8:27." There is NO 3. or third definition in my BDB. This is a word that is barely used in the OT. The shape of the earth also changed after the flood. In fact, the earth moved, mountains rose, the plate boundaries were spit and moved, such as Africa and the north of South America moving apart. Further, I looked up c. or על (above in your post!) and it is to do with "going up ascending" or the passive version. Nothing to do with circles at all. This word has a full two pages on it (pg 748-749) in BDB, but none of them have to do with circles.

Here is what I found, in my real Brown-Driver-Briggs

1. חוּג (Strong's 2328 pg 295 BDB). It is a verb in this definition and means - to draw round, make a circle. a bound, of the horizon line. It is Qal, Pf. and appears in Job 26:10 . The underlined part is what you left out of the definition. Which I suspected you would do, if you answered using BDB. You left out words that were NOT supporting to your poor translation!

"He marks out the horizon[a] on the surface of the waters
as a boundary between light and darkness." Job 26:10

[a] The expression חֹק־חָג (khoq khag) means “he has drawn a limit as a circle.” According to some the form should have been חָק־חוּג (khaq khug, “He has traced a circle”). But others argues that the text is acceptable as is, and can be interpreted as “a limit he has circled.” The Hebrew verbal roots are חָקַק (khaqaq, “to engrave; to sketch out; to trace”) and חוּג (khug, “describe a circle”) respectively.

This clearly is not a noun, or object. It is basically tracing (verb) the outline of the where the earth will be. It really says nothing about the absolute shape of the earth, whether circle or sphere. Since Biblical Hebrew does not have a word for "sphere" it could be either. It is referring to the vault or horizon. Which you even have in your definition in the first paragraph of your post.

2. חוּג (Strong's 2329- pg 295 BDB) It is a noun masc. and means - vault; - only of the vault of heavens

Job 22:14
"Thick clouds are a veil for him, so he does not see us,
as he goes back and forth
in the vault[b] of heaven."

Job 22:14 sn The word is “circle; dome”; here it is the dome that covers the earth, beyond which God sits enthroned. A. B. Davidson (Job, 165) suggests “on the arch of heaven” that covers the earth.

Further, in Prov 8:27 directly talks about this vault.

"Thick clouds are a veil for him, so he does not see us,
as he goes back and forth
in the vault[b] of heaven.’"

The infinitive construct בְּחוּקוֹ (bekhuqo, “to cut; to engrave; to mark”) and the noun חוּג (khug, “horizon; circle”) form a paronomasia* in the line.

MY COMMENTS
I. In the beginning there was a vault or canopy that covered the earth. When the flood happened in Noah's day, that vault was part of the rain, as well as juvenile water from deep in the earth. The earth is not the same today, as in the beginning. so that is your first big issue.

"11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the fountains of the great deep[r] burst open and the floodgates of the heavens[s] were opened. 12 And the rain fell[t] on the earth forty days and forty nights." Genesis 7:11-12

[r]The Hebrew term תְּהוֹם (tehom, “deep”) refers to the watery deep, the salty ocean—especially the primeval ocean that surrounds and underlies the earth (see Gen 1:2).sn The watery deep. The same Hebrew term used to describe the watery deep in Gen 1:2 (תְּהוֹם, tehom) appears here. The text seems to picture here subterranean waters coming from under the earth and contributing to the rapid rise of water. The significance seems to be, among other things, that in this judgment God was returning the world to its earlier condition of being enveloped with water—a judgment involving the reversal of creation. On Gen 7:11 see G. F. Hasel, “The Fountains of the Great Deep,” Origins 1 (1974): 67-72; idem, “The Biblical View of the Extent of the Flood,” Origins 2 (1975): 77-95.


II. The second big issue is what Hebrew word you are using. It really doesn't say in this post, except in the first line in tiny letters. But I can dig deeper for any word! So please add a word or two in Hebrew, if you want!

III. The third big problem is that I do not believe you have a BDB. Perhaps something you read on the internet, when you googled "Circle - Hebrew) or some strange combination.

IV. And of course, your absolute rigid adherence to a modern day math definition of circle. Even though that is NOT even implied in the three verses. You keep harping about a grade 3 circle. Of course, we want to teach simple geometry to grade 3 students. I have done it! But, according to the REAL Brown-Driver-Briggs, which I have sitting on my desk, this word is confined to creation and rather than just being a circle on the waters, it could be a dome, a vault, arch or canopy. If you want a flat earth, then where did Pangea expand to? Plate Tectonics, which I studied in my undergrad degree in Geomorphology and Geology, is a very Biblical way to explain what happened after the flood.

V. You are sticking to some elementary definition of a word you really know nothing about. In fact, you don't know anything about translating, at all. For one thing, we use approximations of the word meanings from other languages. Greek has 5 cases. German has 4 cases. English has none, but we use word order to signify the subject, verb and object. It is easier, and closer to translate from Koine Greek to German, because of the cases. As far as Hebrew, word order is closer to English, but the concepts can be very different. My father's first language was Ukrainian. He was always puzzled about my translating Greek to English, because he knew you could NOT directly translate anything from one language to another, unless they were the same language group, like French, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese. Even then, there are always issues. Plus, English itself has changed radically since the KJV was translated over 400 years ago.

So, you have proved absolutely nothing, but you have made me doubt your credibility. While the first part of your definition does seem to be from BDB, the bold parts are not there in the text. It's ok to bold things, but make sure the reader knows that you bolded "circle and Prov. 8:27." Then you purposely left out part of the definition to prove your point. That's a BIG no-no! You are either a deceiver/liar, or you are totally clueless about issues in translation. Or both! There simply can never be straight definitions from languages as far away in time and location as English and Hebrew.

*the use of a word in different senses or the use of words similar in sound to achieve a specific effect, as humour or a dual meaning; punning.
* a pun.

A little further reading from CMI - https://creation.com/isaiah-40-22-circle-sphere

And ICR - https://www.icr.org/article/circle-earth/ https://www.icr.org/article/earth-round

I was hoping you would join in, I know compared to you my understanding is like a first grader and at best all I can do is search online for definitions and ask rabbis for help but you my friend are on a whole other level of comprehension when it comes to this stuff. @DanielLL I warn you now you stand no chance against @Angela53510 if you inist on trying to debate with her I won't stop you but you will lose.

No, I had to go to Hebrews because you appealed to Hebrews, you rejected the Word circle and appealed to the Hebrew language, saying it was "deeper meaning" and so on. So I showed you In Hebrew the Word is still circle. But if you want to abandon the witness of man, Im ok with that, we are back in the Witness of God which says "circle" both in english and in Hebrew. And this Witness you can't reject.
I know it means circle Thank you for your confirmation.
What about you, do you believe your own words? Your own research on the lexicon?

Once more, since you do not get it. Circle is definitely a definition of the word, khug. or חוּג. In no way have I ever denied that.

BUT, (and it is a big one!) you have selectively pulled only one definition, that suits your purpose, out of the things I wrote. I put them straight out of BDB, to show you there are other meanings! You cannot deny that a dome or vault is 3 dimensional. An arch or a canopy are also 3 dimensional. Plus horizon is an arc, which if you are far away, bends because it follows the sphere of the earth. Because this word is used in many ways, you simply cannot pull out only one definition, and say it is the only answer. In fact, the opposite. Because these other words:

dome, vault, arch, canopy, horizon;

are all three dimensional structures, so it is much more likely that in fact, the word for circle here, is talking about a sphere. You just can't select only the words you support, and leave out the other definitions. Which you have done!! In fact, you cannot have a 2 D circle that is a vault. And a dome is usually a half sphere, a canopy covers it, arching over head.

You have committed so many exegetical errors, I think by now it should be obvious that you are clueless. The fact that you keep defining this word khug as a 2 D circle, leaving out the nuances, and the context of how they are used in the verses, also makes you unable to comment realistically on anything. I wonder if you have OCD or some other kind of obsession? Or is it just that you are rigid and inflexible to change your way of thinking, and grow a bit as a Christian? I guess that might be autism, although I would hate to put a label on anyone I have not even met, just based on his obsession of his rigid and incorrect translating of the Biblical Hebrew word "khug?"

I'll give you various definitions in English, that define Circle. I think your problem might be that you actually don't speak English well enough to be a part of this discussion. And yes, I know you are the OP! But that doesn't make you right!

CIRCLE
Free online English Dictionary https://kids.wordsmyth.net/we/?level=2&rid=7461#:~:text=definition 1:,is shaped like a circle.
1. part of speech: noun definition
1:a closed curve made up of points that are all the same distance from a fixed center point.
synonyms: ring similar words:ball, circuit, disk, globe, halo, hoop, round, wheel, wreath
2. synonyms: ring similar words: ball, circuit, disk, globe, halo, hoop, round, wheel, wreath
3: a group of people who are related by blood or have the same interests.
Our family circle comes together for holidays.synonyms:clan, group, societysimilar words:association, bunch, club, company, fellowship, gang, knot, ring, school

2nd part Above post continued!


MERRIAM-WEBSTER https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/circle

Definition of circle - noun, often attributive
(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: RING, HALO
b: a closed plane (see PLANE entry 6 sense 2b) curve every point of which is equidistant (see EQUIDISTANT sense 1) from a fixed point within the curve
c: the plane surface bounded by such a curve
2. archaic : the orbit of a celestial body
3: something in the form of a circle or section of a circle: such as
a: DIADEM
b: an instrument of astronomical observation the graduated (see GRADUATED sense 2a) limb of which consists of an entire circle
c: a balcony or tier of seats in a theatre
d: a circle formed on the surface of a sphere by the intersection of a plane that passes through it - circle of latitude
e: ROTARY sense 2Traffic slowed down around the circle.
4: an area of action or influence : REALM within the circle of probability
5a: CYCLE, ROUND the wheel has come full circle
b: fallacious reasoning in which something to be demonstrated is covertly assumed
6: a group of persons sharing a common interest or revolving about a common center the sewing circle of her church family circle the gossip of court circles political, social, and literary circles
7: a territorial or administrative division or districtThe province is divided into nine circles.
8: a curving side street lived on Kimberly Circle
9: a circular course or pathThe children ran in circles around the tree.The conversation kept going in circles, and nothing got accomplished.

Circle - verb
Definition of circle (Entry 2 of 2)
transitive verb
1: to enclose in or as if in a circleThe teacher circled the misspelled words.
2: to move or revolve around satellites circling the earth

intransitive verb
1a: to move in or as if in a circleThe airplane circled around over the airport.
b: CIRCULATE thy name shall circle round the gaping throng— Lord Byron
c: to circle around before making an attack sharks circling in the water
2: to describe or extend in a circle the lighthouse sent out its slow steady circling beam— R. O. Bowen

3rd part

COLLINS DICTIONARY - https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/circle

1. COUNTABLE NOUN
A circle is a shape consisting of a curved line completely surrounding an area. Every part of the line is the same distance from the centre of the area.
The flag was red, with a large white circle in the centre.
I wrote down the number 46 and drew a circle around it.
Synonyms: ring, round, band, disc

2. COUNTABLE NOUN
A circle of something is a round flat piece or area of it.

3. COUNTABLE NOUN
A circle of objects or people is a group of them arranged in the shape of a circle.
The monument consists of a circle of gigantic stones.
We stood in a circle holding hands.

4. VERB
If something circles an object or a place, or circles around it, it forms a circle around it.
This is the ring road that circles the city. [VERB noun]
...the long curving driveway that circled around the vast clipped lawn. [V + around/round]
Synonyms: go round, ring, surround, belt

5. VERB
If an aircraft or a bird circles or circles something, it moves round in a circle in the air.
The plane circled, awaiting permission to land. [VERB]
There were two helicopters circling around. [VERB adverb/preposition]
...like a hawk circling prey. [VERB noun]
Synonyms: wheel, spiral, revolve, rotate

6. VERB
To circle around someone or something, or to circle them, means to move around them.
Emily kept circling around her mother. [V + around/round]
The silent wolves would track and circle them.

7. VERB
If you circle something on a piece of paper, you draw a circle around it.
Circle the correct answers on the coupon below.

8. COUNTABLE NOUN
You can refer to a group of people as a circle when they meet each other regularly because they are friends or because they belong to the same profession or share the same interests.
He has a small circle of friends.
Alton has made himself fiercely unpopular in certain circles.
Synonyms: group, company, set, school

9. SINGULAR NOUN
In a theatre or cinema, the circle is an area of seats on the upper floor.

10. See also Arctic Circle, dress circle, inner circle, vicious circle, virtuous circle; to come full circle go round in circles/go around in circles

1 (noun) in the sense of ring
Definition- something formed or arranged in the shape of a circle
The flag was red with a large white circle.The monument consists of a circle of gigantic stones.
Synonyms
ring
round
band
disc
loop
hoop
cordon
perimeter
halo

2 (noun) in the sense of group
Definition
a group of people sharing an interest, activity, or upbringing
a small circle of friends
Synonyms
group
company
set
school
club
order
class
society
crowd
assembly
fellowship
fraternity
clique
coterie

3 (noun) in the sense of sphere

Definition
a group of people sharing an interest, activity, or upbringing
She moved only in the most exalted circles.
Synonyms
sphere
world
area
range
field
scene (informal)
orbit
realm
milieu

I'll stop at this third definition - IN THE SENSE OF SPHERE
You do not understand how language works. A word can be used in many ways. You set up a paradigm that demanded only ONE definition, and only the one YOU wanted. Language does not support you at all. Yes, a circle can be defined as a 2 D space. But this page shows the myriad of possible meanings for the same word! Even the Bible uses different words in translation, which are far different than your elementary arithmetic geometry. But I leave PH for the math comments.

Your whole theory of a flat earth, is based on ignoring the basic fundamentals of exegesis. It is also based on not understanding the diversity and richness of the many definitions of a single word. You are WRONG! The earth is not flat! It is round, goes around the sun. This has been know since forever, and codified by Copernicus.

Look, I know what a circle is, I don't need to check three diferent dictionaries for any other definition other than the first one that shows up, I accept the plain reading of the Word as it is written, because I have no problem with the circle of the earth on my wold view. But you had to check three diferent dictionaries, and the third definition of the third dictionary, happens to fit your world view, so you took it. You realize you had to reject all the others that say it's circle, right? And hand picked the one you liked.

This is what the Word is talking about when it says to lean not on your own understanding. You have to trust the Word more than you trust your world view. But instead you hold on to your traditions, and continue to find a way out of circle. So when the Word rebuked your world view, you had to resort to changing it's meaning, just so you could keep your world view and your traditions, because you couldn't take the rebuke.

Proverbs 17:10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.

Maybe one day you'll accept the Word, and the circle of the earth, until then we have nothing to discuss here.

Which is too bad for him - because, a 'bound' of the horizon line is --- a circle.

Well - actually...

Not true. It is not describing the earth as a whole; rather, it is referring to a 'circle' that is a 'bound' for the waters.

True. Sort-of. It would certainly be correct to say that it definitely does not (in Job 26:10) describe the shape of the whole earth.

Hebrew does have a word for 'ball' however.

No.

The most 'rigid' and 'inflexible' Christians - by far - are those who let cognitive dissonance prevent them from exercising proper discernment in the study of the scriptures.

So, they live out their entire lives - giving more credence to - and having more faith in - the things of the world that they were taught - than in the scriptures.

The result is - they never come to know the truth about [certain things] - because, for as long as they allow what they have been taught to blind them - they will not see what the scriptures really actually say about those things.

But, if they ever learn to let go of the world for the sake of the truth - and study the scriptures without the blinders on - they will be amazed at what they discover when they let the scriptures speak to them unhindered.

"Just sayin'..."

Why not do an actual EXPERIMENT that you can test to see if your interpretation is correct or not???

(Foucaults Pendulum, Coriolis)

These experiments show that the Earth is rotating.


Once that little domino falls maybe all the rest will, too?

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

That would require him leaving his mom’s basement.

When I first looked at this thread, I was impressed and interested to see some flat-earthers using Scripture, rather than just "common sense" to try to argue their position.

But now, when confronted by some here who have the time and energy to clearly refute (my view - ) these Scriptures and definitions, it seems that these flat-earthers are returning to vague and accusatory generalities: such as:

The most 'rigid' and 'inflexible' Christians - by far - are those who let cognitive dissonance prevent them from exercising proper discernment in the study of the scriptures.

But, if they ever learn to let go of the world for the sake of the truth - and study the scriptures without the blinders on - they will be amazed at what they discover when they let the scriptures speak to them unhindered.

You have to trust the Word more than you trust your world view. But instead you hold on to your traditions, and continue to find a way out of circle. So when the Word rebuked your world view, you had to resort to changing it's meaning, just so you could keep your world view and your traditions, because you couldn't take the rebuke.


If the Bible indeed clearly teaches flat-Earth - then keep at it and prove it as such from the Word!

It think it was very specific, I felt the same way when talking to her. She needs to let go of her traditions, or else we can't discuss with her. She was holding on really hard, even went looking on three diferent dictionaries, looking for someone to tell her what she wanted to hear. So, the problem needs to be adressed, I told her about the "traditions" which is more biblical, but "cognitive dissonance" is also true and understandable. We weren't getting anywhere with her without letting her know what is preventing her from receiving the Text.
Yes, it is. Now: "on the face of the deep", is the "face" a flat surface (2d) or is it a sphere (3d)?

on the other hand she did not selectively edit what she quoted from dictionaries, trying to make it appear that the dictionaries only give the answer you want them to give, and deceptively hiding the definitions you didn't like.

you did that. you chose only one source and deleted part of it to make your case look better.
she took 3 different sources and showed all 3 of them can support her view.

so who is really the one 'holding on really hard' and turning a blind eye to anything that challenges their private interpretation?

the uneducated guy who falsifies evidence and pretends no data contrary to his opinion exists? and now attacks his ideological opponents character?
or the educated woman who presents the whole case and argues that wisdom makes one of these interpretations necessary, discarding the others?

go watch the sunset @DanielLL
the sunset God created, that every living soul with eyes can see. let it witness.

come back and describe what you see.