Does the Bible solemnly warn of eternal damnation?

Is death punishment? Some claim it is not, which strikes me as strange. Is death not what God promised as the wages of sin, starting in Genesis and repeated throughout Scripture in a multiplicity of ways to the very end?

No one denies there are punishments in store. Where we are at is how long the punishment lasts and your verses just speak of great or less judgements, not punishments. There are varying degrees of judgement too.

You have the Bible at your disposal to find your allusive verse that says people are consciously tormented forever. This isn’t a trick question. Surely there must be a lot of Biblical support for a doctrine so critical to most Protestant and Catholic denominations.

Actually, there isn't a verse where Jesus says, "I am God". There are many verses that support the idea though. Similarly, there may not be a verse that specifically says, "The lake of fire or hell is eternal conscious torment for all people not in the book of life", but there are verses that support the idea. If your approach were sound, one could dismantle Christianity by carefully demanding specific statements that are known to be absent from Scripture. That's just not how we do biblical interpretation.

For in Adam we all die...what kind if death? Spiritual death? Physical death? Both?

I don’t require a specific ware that says "The lake of fire or hell is eternal conscious torment for all people not in the book of life", but I disagree there is a verse that supports the use. Which verse(a) did you have in mind?

Edit: I also might add that Christianity shouldn’t be what you want to make it out to be. If the Bible is silent on something why can’t we just follow suit?

I don’t require a specific ware that says "The lake of fire or hell is eternal conscious torment for all people not in the book of life", but I disagree there is a verse that supports the use. Which verse(a) did you have in mind?

Edit: I also might add that Christianity shouldn’t be what you want to make it out to be. If the Bible is silent on something why can’t we just follow suit?

Is death punishment? Some claim it is not, which strikes me as strange. Is death not what God promised as the wages of sin, starting in Genesis and repeated throughout Scripture in a multiplicity of ways to the very end? Saying atheists get what they want is no reason to discount the second death as a final end to the wicked, when fear of death is given as the reason for humanity's bondage to sin.

I'm not going to defend statements I haven't made.

A combination of several, many of which have already been cited in this thread.


I agree, generally. Where Scripture is actually silent on a particular subject, we are wrong to make dogmatic statements and claim that we have scriptural backing. However, I don't believe this applies in this matter.

So the second death is preferable to being tortured for awhile , THEN getting the second death?

Yes, it’s possible to make inferences and interpretations for eternal conscious torment or anything. How we have hundreds of denominations is due to vagueness in the scriptures.

However, What I see is that there’s more support for the destruction or death of the human soul in hell. Do you see how immortality is conditional on a person’s response to the gospel? How can someone still live forever after rejecting the gospel?

I’m not sure this will land but consider

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if they die and don’t exist how can they never have rest ?

I don’t believe spirit ever ceases flesh does and is destroyed but how do we know that mans spirit is ever destroyed ?

“But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭32:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think this subject can’t really be “ proven “ either way and there are scriptures that support both ideas either way we see it

I don’t think spirit does the same way as flesh because spirit wasn’t created by God it came out of him who is eternal. So even when a mans body dies thier spirit continues and returns to God from where it came.

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

in the beginning God made our body of the dust but then he breathed into us the spirit of life and man became a living soul . At death it seems the body dies and retirns tonthe biological material it was beforehand the dust and the spirit returns to God where it came from but does spirit ever actually. Ease to exist ? I don’t think we know for sure I’d say no that spiritual beings continue whether good or bad

eternal death is also a thing in my opinion but it’s dying for eternity torment and darkness seperation from God

only my opinion however there are scriptures that suggest both ideas

Is death punishment? Some claim it is not, which strikes me as strange. Is death not what God promised as the wages of sin, starting in Genesis and repeated throughout Scripture in a multiplicity of ways to the very end? Saying atheists get what they want is no reason to discount the second death as a final end to the wicked, when fear of death is given as the reason for humanity's bondage to sin.

Nice dodge.

Is death punishment? Is death not what God promised as the wages of sin, starting
in Genesis and repeated throughout Scripture in a multiplicity of ways to the very end?

“No rest day or night” for a week? A month? It doesn’t specify. It certainly doesn’t say eternally.



Does Romans 6:23 imply spiritual death? If you disagree, then what is being put to death according to Romans 6:23?

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


yes, the Bible is quite vague sometimes. Almost as if that’s intentional. I find it hard to believe it’s accidentally unclear on anything.



Yeah you definitely seem to take a balanced approach to this. That’s good I think.

Yes, it’s possible to make inferences and interpretations for eternal conscious torment or anything. How we have hundreds of denominations is due to vagueness in the scriptures.

However, What I see is that there’s more support for the destruction or death of the human soul in hell. Do you see how immortality is conditional on a person’s response to the gospel? How can someone still live forever after rejecting the gospel?

yes I’m glad you understood I wasn’t claiming either way and recognize there is scriptire to support either argument about this subject.

“If you disagree, then what is being put to death according to Romans 6:23?”

well in my opinion sin is why we are in this situation

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die,

but after this the judgment:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I believe the reason we die at all is because of sin and what God said in the beginning about e knowledge of good and evil so for instance

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so I believe the one appointment we all have with death came because of mankind transgressing the commandment that said “
When you do this you will surely die “

but man wasn’t ended at that point we were appointed once to die ( our body ) and then we must appear at judgement ( our living spirit )

what I’m saying is the body is made of created material and Will waste away and be gone

my opinion or belief is that a spirit dying isn’t the same but is an eternal state of death rather that becoming nothing . I don’t believe the spirit will ever rest I think that term your asking about probably originated in biblical understanding “ there shall be no rest for the wicked but the righteous shall enter his rest “

I’m thinking “the smoke of their torment rising forever , and them having no rest day or night ‬‬who worship him “ along with other scriptire like this

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41, 46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think eternal life and eternal death will be those two eternal
Places but recognize others might see it “ everlasting punishment means you get destroyed “

it’s just one of those subjects that doesn’t completely plainly say either way I have my belief that spirit doesn’t die the same as flesh flesh is removed and destroyed for all but then their spirit goes alive to God for judgement

the second death in my belief is to end up in that place of eternal flame prepared for Satan his angels and his children who whose to serve him rather than God

but that again is just my own belief from those scriptures and others and realize people see things differently . Some thkngs are extremely clear in scripture other things aren’t as clear all
If it’s true but some things aren’t completely clear at least not to me

My view is the preponderance of evidence says soirit dies forever but never ceases to exist but remains in that terrible state of death and flesh dies and withered into nothing into dust but the spirit came forth from God and endures whether good or evil and each has an eternal home

Where does it really say “All people are going to burn forever in torment who are not in the book of life?”

Here’s another scripture to ponder.

Romans 7:
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

I'm not going to defend statements I haven't made.

Yes, death is punishment for sin, according to Scripture. I haven't said, or even hinted, otherwise. I'm trying to understand the mindset of those who think differently than I do on this matter.

there may not be a verse that specifically says, "The lake of fire or hell is eternal conscious torment for all people not in the book of life", but there are verses that support the idea.

Which brings me back to my original question: From what are you saved? If it's merely the second death, and the second is much like the first, why would that concern you, since you would never know the difference?

To the best of my knowledge, I have not asked you to. Why you repeat this assertion is beyond me.

Informing you of things others have said is not that.


How do you think on this matter?

There are also words mistranslated and substituted that don't belong in support of such ideas, against a plethora of verses that support death as an end, the second death being the the final end for those not in Christ. How difficult is that to understand, really? All of Scripture points to Christ. He is all and life is in Him alone.

God's Word says He will make all things new. Oh, wait, except for this little (or perhaps big) corner over here where the leftovers from before are being tortured for an eternity. How does that glorify God? Rhetorical question, really. Just part of the mindset that goes with believing death is the final end of the wicked as explicitly articulated from beginning to end of Scripture.

Merely the second death? See, this is what I do not understand! You relegate the second death to a merely. Who said it is like the first? The first is not forever after, is it? So how can it be like the second? Do you speak as if death were nothing, while denying it at the same time?

People fear death. It holds them in bondage to sin. Christ gave His precious life to save us from death, but you say, merely death, as if it were nothing! As if people do not fight against the death penalty! Why should they bother, after all, since when they are dead they will not know the difference!? People spend countless resources attempting to prolong, protect, and preserve life, precisely because people do not want to die. It is merely death. Such talk cheapens life, and the cost that was ultimately paid to preserve those who would believe.