Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!
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That's what unquenchable means by very definition.
"unquenchable (adj.) late 14c., of fire; 1560s, of thirst, from un- (1) "not" + quench (v.) + -able. Related: Unquenchably.unquenchable (adj.) late 14c., of fire; 1560s, of thirst, from un- (1) "not" + quench (v.) + -able. Related: Unquenchably." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/unquenchable
"quench (v.) Middle English quenchen, "to extinguish, put out" (heat, light, fire, also of desire, hunger, thirst), also figurative, "to bring to naught, eliminate, render ineffectual" (c. 1200), Old English acwencan "to quench" (of fire, light), from Proto-Germanic *kwenkjanan, probably a causative form from the source of Old English cwincan "to go out, be extinguished," Old Frisian kwinka. No certain cognates outside Germanic; perhaps a substratum word. Especially "to cool or extinguish by means of cold water," hence "to drench in water" (late 15c.). Related: Quenched; quenching." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/quench?ref=etymonline_crossreference#etymonline_v_3177
Just in case you do not understand "extinguish"
"extinguish (v.) "to put out, quench, stifle," 1540s, from Latin extinguere/exstinguere "quench, put out (what is burning); wipe out, obliterate," from ex "out" (see ex-) + stinguere "quench," apparently an evolved sense from PIE *steig- "to prick, stick, pierce" (see stick (v.)). But see distinguish (v.). Related: Extinguished; extinguishing.extinguish (v.) "to put out, quench, stifle," 1540s, from Latin extinguere/exstinguere "quench, put out (what is burning); wipe out, obliterate," from ex "out" (see ex-) + stinguere "quench," apparently an evolved sense from PIE *steig- "to prick, stick, pierce" (see stick (v.)). But see distinguish (v.). Related: Extinguished; extinguishing." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/extinguish#etymonline_v_14119
Isaiah speaking about Jerusalem when Nebuchadnezzar would later come:
Isa 34:10: "It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever."
Jerusalem burned so hot by fire that no one could put it out by any means. Jerusalem burned up with unquenchable fire, and once the fuel ran out, nothing of the fire remained, and only ashes left.
In the contexts of the NT texts referring to the finally impenitent, they are burned "up" by unquenchable fire. They cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame, and when they are consumed away, the fire ceases for lack of fuel, but no one quenched it.
"unquenchable (adj.) late 14c., of fire; 1560s, of thirst, from un- (1) "not" + quench (v.) + -able. Related: Unquenchably.unquenchable (adj.) late 14c., of fire; 1560s, of thirst, from un- (1) "not" + quench (v.) + -able. Related: Unquenchably." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/unquenchable
"quench (v.) Middle English quenchen, "to extinguish, put out" (heat, light, fire, also of desire, hunger, thirst), also figurative, "to bring to naught, eliminate, render ineffectual" (c. 1200), Old English acwencan "to quench" (of fire, light), from Proto-Germanic *kwenkjanan, probably a causative form from the source of Old English cwincan "to go out, be extinguished," Old Frisian kwinka. No certain cognates outside Germanic; perhaps a substratum word. Especially "to cool or extinguish by means of cold water," hence "to drench in water" (late 15c.). Related: Quenched; quenching." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/quench?ref=etymonline_crossreference#etymonline_v_3177
Just in case you do not understand "extinguish"
"extinguish (v.) "to put out, quench, stifle," 1540s, from Latin extinguere/exstinguere "quench, put out (what is burning); wipe out, obliterate," from ex "out" (see ex-) + stinguere "quench," apparently an evolved sense from PIE *steig- "to prick, stick, pierce" (see stick (v.)). But see distinguish (v.). Related: Extinguished; extinguishing.extinguish (v.) "to put out, quench, stifle," 1540s, from Latin extinguere/exstinguere "quench, put out (what is burning); wipe out, obliterate," from ex "out" (see ex-) + stinguere "quench," apparently an evolved sense from PIE *steig- "to prick, stick, pierce" (see stick (v.)). But see distinguish (v.). Related: Extinguished; extinguishing." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/extinguish#etymonline_v_14119
Isaiah speaking about Jerusalem when Nebuchadnezzar would later come:
Isa 34:10: "It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever."
Jerusalem burned so hot by fire that no one could put it out by any means. Jerusalem burned up with unquenchable fire, and once the fuel ran out, nothing of the fire remained, and only ashes left.
In the contexts of the NT texts referring to the finally impenitent, they are burned "up" by unquenchable fire. They cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame, and when they are consumed away, the fire ceases for lack of fuel, but no one quenched it.
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If the fire is not quenched it is still burning. Nothing in the word, English or Greek, or the context suggests that it ever goes out for lack of fuel. You are in violation of attempting to change the intended meaning. Jesus meant to communicate that the fire does not go out. You are trying to communicate that it does.
Your argument is not at all believable. You should be ashamed for even trying that one. It sounds like a kid who got in trouble and started coming up with all kinds of strange explanations of how he really was not the one who did it hoping his parents would fall for it.
Your argument is not at all believable. You should be ashamed for even trying that one. It sounds like a kid who got in trouble and started coming up with all kinds of strange explanations of how he really was not the one who did it hoping his parents would fall for it.
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Which part?
Thomas Aquinas (1225 – 7 March 1274) on the Globality of the Fire to consume all things, likened unto the Globality of the Flood [sections throughout Summa Thelogica, Suppliment, Question 74]...
"Article 3. Whether the fire whereby the world will be cleansed will be of the same species with elemental fire? ... it is declared that the fire of the judgment will rise as high as the waters of the deluge; ... following Augustine, say that "just as the deluge resulted from an outpouring of the waters of the world, so the fashion of this world will perish by a burning of worldly flames" (De Civ. Dei. xx, 16). ... by the Divine power ... the fire that will burn the surface of this world will result. ..."
"... Further, a gloss on 2 Thessalonians 1:8, "In a flame of fire giving vengeance," says: "There will be in the world a fire that shall precede Him, and shall rise in the air to the same height as did the waters of the deluge." But the waters of the deluge did not rise to the height of the higher heavens but only 15 cubits higher than the mountain summits (Genesis 7:20). Therefore the higher heavens will not be cleansed by that fire. ..."
"...Reply to Objection 2. Peter explains himself to which heavens he refers. For before the words quoted, he had said (2 Peter 3:5-7): "The heavens . . . first, and the earth . . . through water . . . perished . . . which . . . now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire unto the day of judgment." Therefore the heavens to be cleansed are those which before were cleansed by the waters of the deluge, namely the aerial heavens. ..."
"...Further, this final cleansing that will be effected by fire will correspond to the first cleansing which was effected by water...."
"...the authority of Scripture, because it is written (2 Peter 3:7) that those heavens are "kept in store unto fire," which were cleansed by water; and Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xx, 18) that "the same world which perished in the deluge is reserved unto fire."..." [The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas
Second and Revised Edition, 1920
Literally translated by Fathers of the English Dominican Province
Online Edition Copyright © 2008 by Kevin Knight
Nihil Obstat. F. Innocentius Apap, O.P., S.T.M., Censor. Theol.
Imprimatur. Edus. Canonicus Surmont, Vicarius Generalis. Westmonasterii.
APPROBATIO ORDINIS
Nihil Obstat. F. Raphael Moss, O.P., S.T.L. and F. Leo Moore, O.P., S.T.L.
Imprimatur. F. Beda Jarrett, O.P., S.T.L., A.M., Prior Provincialis Angliæ
MARIÆ IMMACULATÆ - SEDI SAPIENTIÆ] - SUMMA THEOLOGICA: The fire of the final conflagration (Supplementum, Q. 74)
Thomas Aquinas (1225 – 7 March 1274) on the Globality of the Fire to consume all things, likened unto the Globality of the Flood [sections throughout Summa Thelogica, Suppliment, Question 74]...
"Article 3. Whether the fire whereby the world will be cleansed will be of the same species with elemental fire? ... it is declared that the fire of the judgment will rise as high as the waters of the deluge; ... following Augustine, say that "just as the deluge resulted from an outpouring of the waters of the world, so the fashion of this world will perish by a burning of worldly flames" (De Civ. Dei. xx, 16). ... by the Divine power ... the fire that will burn the surface of this world will result. ..."
"... Further, a gloss on 2 Thessalonians 1:8, "In a flame of fire giving vengeance," says: "There will be in the world a fire that shall precede Him, and shall rise in the air to the same height as did the waters of the deluge." But the waters of the deluge did not rise to the height of the higher heavens but only 15 cubits higher than the mountain summits (Genesis 7:20). Therefore the higher heavens will not be cleansed by that fire. ..."
"...Reply to Objection 2. Peter explains himself to which heavens he refers. For before the words quoted, he had said (2 Peter 3:5-7): "The heavens . . . first, and the earth . . . through water . . . perished . . . which . . . now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire unto the day of judgment." Therefore the heavens to be cleansed are those which before were cleansed by the waters of the deluge, namely the aerial heavens. ..."
"...Further, this final cleansing that will be effected by fire will correspond to the first cleansing which was effected by water...."
"...the authority of Scripture, because it is written (2 Peter 3:7) that those heavens are "kept in store unto fire," which were cleansed by water; and Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xx, 18) that "the same world which perished in the deluge is reserved unto fire."..." [The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas
Second and Revised Edition, 1920
Literally translated by Fathers of the English Dominican Province
Online Edition Copyright © 2008 by Kevin Knight
Nihil Obstat. F. Innocentius Apap, O.P., S.T.M., Censor. Theol.
Imprimatur. Edus. Canonicus Surmont, Vicarius Generalis. Westmonasterii.
APPROBATIO ORDINIS
Nihil Obstat. F. Raphael Moss, O.P., S.T.L. and F. Leo Moore, O.P., S.T.L.
Imprimatur. F. Beda Jarrett, O.P., S.T.L., A.M., Prior Provincialis Angliæ
MARIÆ IMMACULATÆ - SEDI SAPIENTIÆ] - SUMMA THEOLOGICA: The fire of the final conflagration (Supplementum, Q. 74)
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Yes. People do not apprehend how reprehensible, evil, and damnable sin is. Consider the ramifications of a single act of sin (Adam's sin). It brought the whole creation under bondage and corruption. Imagine what a lifetime of sin deserves. Jesus said that to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is an eternal sin. Eternal sin = eternal wrath.
"What's wrong with you people?"
-R.C. Sproul
"What's wrong with you people?"
-R.C. Sproul
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Imagination about some taking longer to drown than others.
It is you imagining how it must have been. It has no authority to create a teaching that some will burn longer than others in the Lake of Fire.
And the heavens and earth being burned up with a fervent heat and the element dissolving is separate from the Lake of Fire subject. So how long people burn in the Lake of fire, some longer than others because of their sin is an invented teaching not based on scripture other than the parable I posted about the one who receives more stripes than the other. Which might relate to the Lake of Fire, I don't know.
As to some people taking longer to die in judgments poured out on the earth or in the final burning up of earth, who knows. We can only imagine but it serves no didactic purpose.
It is you imagining how it must have been. It has no authority to create a teaching that some will burn longer than others in the Lake of Fire.
And the heavens and earth being burned up with a fervent heat and the element dissolving is separate from the Lake of Fire subject. So how long people burn in the Lake of fire, some longer than others because of their sin is an invented teaching not based on scripture other than the parable I posted about the one who receives more stripes than the other. Which might relate to the Lake of Fire, I don't know.
As to some people taking longer to die in judgments poured out on the earth or in the final burning up of earth, who knows. We can only imagine but it serves no didactic purpose.
No because quench is a verb, an action word.
The word is used as I gave even in modern English.
"Mystery of the unquenchable Olympic flame in Beijing 2022" -
https://www.newsgd.com/node_99363c4f3b/4784c651c7.shtml
Even other old Greek sources, like Homer (because someone said we should look to non scriptural Greek sources to see how a word was used, right?) used "unquenchable fire" that could not be put out, or extinguished, but when the fuel ran out died of itself - https://www.google.com/search?tbm=b...oq="unquenchable+fire"+homer&aqs=heirloom-srp..
The word is used as I gave even in modern English.
"Mystery of the unquenchable Olympic flame in Beijing 2022" -
https://www.newsgd.com/node_99363c4f3b/4784c651c7.shtml
Even other old Greek sources, like Homer (because someone said we should look to non scriptural Greek sources to see how a word was used, right?) used "unquenchable fire" that could not be put out, or extinguished, but when the fuel ran out died of itself - https://www.google.com/search?tbm=b...oq="unquenchable+fire"+homer&aqs=heirloom-srp..
It still means it cant be put out and you have no right to add to that "except.. blah blah blah"
In this scenario there is no such thing as it burning out of itself. You wish that was the case but you are wrong. It never goes out.
Period. You can't explain a way where it goes out because it is never quenched. By lack of fuel or anything else. It is a flame God created, it doesn't need fuel. If God wants it to burn forever it does.
The sun will end according to scriptures but this flame never goes out. It is not like your "camp fire" theoretical flame. It is not of this world. You can't subject it to the laws of physics and think that proves it has an end "that is not quenched by outside forces" nonsense. Total nonsense.
It is never quenched and that means it never ends. The flame is always on going.
You can have the last word. I don't think there is much to be accomplished by repeating the same points over and over again. We seem to be at an impasse.
But at least you know why we don't accept your "scriptures proving that the torment is not eternal" It's because you do such a bad job of trying to interpret scriptures and force a horrible hermeneutic and no one who is intellectually honest can twist unquenchable to "it goes out" using the Greek or English.
In this scenario there is no such thing as it burning out of itself. You wish that was the case but you are wrong. It never goes out.
Period. You can't explain a way where it goes out because it is never quenched. By lack of fuel or anything else. It is a flame God created, it doesn't need fuel. If God wants it to burn forever it does.
The sun will end according to scriptures but this flame never goes out. It is not like your "camp fire" theoretical flame. It is not of this world. You can't subject it to the laws of physics and think that proves it has an end "that is not quenched by outside forces" nonsense. Total nonsense.
It is never quenched and that means it never ends. The flame is always on going.
You can have the last word. I don't think there is much to be accomplished by repeating the same points over and over again. We seem to be at an impasse.
But at least you know why we don't accept your "scriptures proving that the torment is not eternal" It's because you do such a bad job of trying to interpret scriptures and force a horrible hermeneutic and no one who is intellectually honest can twist unquenchable to "it goes out" using the Greek or English.
I respect your honesty, but your assumption of me just isn't true.
There are a handful of things in the Bible that I prefer weren't so. This is because I am flesh, incomplete, fallen, and with partial knowledge, journeying to comprehend the infinite wisdom of God. In Biblical study, what I cannot understand by intellect, I apprehend by faith. I have apprehended so many things I don't understand or don't prefer. This is the outworking of faith. I trust that God knows what He's doing and that his way is best.
"Unless I understand the Cross, I cannot understand why my commitment
to what is right must take precedence over what I prefer.” -Ravi Zacharias
“The LORD has made Himself known; He has executed His decision.
In the work of his own hands the wicked is snared. Selah.” (Psalm 9:16)
“His judgments are true and righteous.”” (Revelation 19:2)
There are a handful of things in the Bible that I prefer weren't so. This is because I am flesh, incomplete, fallen, and with partial knowledge, journeying to comprehend the infinite wisdom of God. In Biblical study, what I cannot understand by intellect, I apprehend by faith. I have apprehended so many things I don't understand or don't prefer. This is the outworking of faith. I trust that God knows what He's doing and that his way is best.
"Unless I understand the Cross, I cannot understand why my commitment
to what is right must take precedence over what I prefer.” -Ravi Zacharias
“The LORD has made Himself known; He has executed His decision.
In the work of his own hands the wicked is snared. Selah.” (Psalm 9:16)
“His judgments are true and righteous.”” (Revelation 19:2)
You think it's just to sentence a murdering terrorist to non-stop torture where their vitals are closely monitored so that death is prevented as he endures unending agony?
If so, congrats...you're not "more just" than God.
However, when it comes to "love your enemies", I think Houston has a problem
If so, congrats...you're not "more just" than God.
However, when it comes to "love your enemies", I think Houston has a problem