We the new chosen people, are Jews no longer chosen people?

made it here without falling on my face

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

When that was written there was no New Testament. Think: the New Testament was in part being penned at the time! And the documents you call the New Testament wouldn’t be compiled and canonized until much later. So all they had to point to Jesus was the Old Testament- that book Phope says has the hated law on every page. And Joe says those laws are in his heart. But God said “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Jer 17:9.

Let me tell you what is on every page of the Old Testament: Jesus! The Old is rich, far richer in meaning than the New; though the New does explain some things more clearly. That was one of the things the Jews expected Messiah to do, and He did in a partial fulfilment of Jeremiah 31:33 “But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.” Jesus did not explain all Torah yet. That will happen when He reigns in the Millennium. But back to the richness of meaning in the Old Testament, let me give you something by another Christian, not even a Torah keeping one at that. Francis Dixon wrote:

THE FIRST PROMISE OF A REDEEMER Genesis 3:15

The first great statement of the Gospel is contained in Genesis 3:15; God’s first promise of a redeemer. Many discredit the Book of Genesis, but remember that Genesis, as well as the four books that follow, was written by Moses under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit- 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21. We must also recall the words of our Lord Jesus Christ in John 5:47. The words contained in Genesis 3:15 (and also in the previous verse) constitute the first gospel sermon ever preached. The preacher was the Lord God Almighty, and the audience was the Devil, Adam and Eve, and the whole human race. We shall notice that this verse declares seven great fundamental truths that are amplified throughout the Bible, though they are denied by many people today. What are these seven truths?

1. Genesis 3:15 declares God’s sovereign love for all mankind.

In Genesis 3 we have the record of the Devil tempting Eve (and Adam), of the entrance of sin into the world and the consequent fall of man. Immediately sin came into the world God intervened- read Genesis 3:8-9. God immediately sought out His disobedient children- not to kill them- to declare His love for them, and in Genesis 3:15 we read that at once God said, ‘I will do something. I will send a Redeemer who will be ”her seed” (KJV) - the seed of the woman.’ The reference, of course, was to God’s Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who would come in the fullness of time to live, die and rise again so that He might be the Saviour of man (Galatians 4:4-5). How wonderful that back in the Garden of Eden God should express His love by promising to send the Saviour!

2. Genesis 3:15 declares the existence of a personal Devil.

To whom was God speaking in Genesis 3:14? It was to the serpent. But who was the serpent? He was the agent or the tool of Satan. The serpent was Satan incarnate, and we must remember that at this time and prior to the Fall the serpent was not a loathsome, crawling reptile but a beautiful, attractive, upright creature, with graceful movements (verse 14). It was only after sin had entered in and God had pronounced judgment upon the serpent that it became a loathsome creature. Few people today believe in a personal Devil, but the Bible emphatically declares his existence. He is a real personality (Matthew 4:1-11); he was in fact the first sinner (1 John 3:8); he is “the god of this age” (2 Corinthians 4:4); he is “the ruler of the kingdom of the air” (Ephesians 2:2); he is “the accuser of our brothers” (Revelation 12:10). Thank God his doom is sealed! It was sealed when God first said - Genesis 3:14-15.

3. Genesis 3:15 declares Eve was the first woman.

These words refer to Eve, but where did Eve come from? (Genesis 2:18; 21-22). Why do many find this record difficult to believe? If Genesis 1:26 is true, why not 2:18 and 21-22? So Adam and Eve were the first parents (Genesis 3:20). The alternative is too terrifying (2 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Timothy 2:13; 1 Corinthians 15:45). Always remember that the theory of evolution in relation to the existence of man is still an unproved theory.

4. Genesis 3:15 declares the supernatural Virgin Birth of our Lord.

At least 4,000 years before His incarnation God declared that when Jesus came He would be born of a virgin. But where do we read of this in Genesis 3:15? “Her seed” (KJV) is an unusual expression, but the word ’seed’ is used over a hundred times in the Bible, always in connection with the male and never with the female. The seed for procreation is always resident in the male, so how do we explain “the seed of the woman”? The explanation is that Jesus would not be born as the result of the union of a man and a woman, but His was to be a virgin birth, conceived of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:35).

5. Genesis 3:15 declares the essential purpose of the Incarnation.

Why did Jesus come into this world? Yes, He was our teacher, our example, a great reformer, but this verse tells us that He came to die. This refers to the first coming of Christ and to His suffering on the Cross (John 1:29). Compare Isaiah 53:5; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:24. How we thank God that our Lord Jesus was born to die (Revelation 13:8) otherwise there would be no redemption.

6. Genesis 3:15 declares the second coming of Jesus and His final triumph over Satan.

This verse speaks of His first coming (Hebrews 9:26), also of His second coming (Hebrews 9:28) - it predicts Romans 16:20; Revelation 20:10! On the Cross Jesus vanquished Satan, and on His return Satan will be overthrown and cast out for ever. Isaiah 11:9 and Revelation 21:1-4 will be fulfilled! - Hallelujah!

7. Genesis 3:15 declares the truth of Romans 10:17.

This is illustrated so well in this chapter. When Adam and Eve heard the Lord’s pronouncement and promise of a redeemer, faith was implanted in their hearts; they believed God (verse 20). Eve was not then a mother, but Adam had faith to believe she would become one and through her the Redeemer would ultimately come into this world.


Even I, conceited as I am* could not have said it better! And look at how this one little verse points directly to Jesus (Hebrew Yeshua which means salvation). Could it just be that there are things we could learn from the Old Testament?

* (“conceited as I am”- whoever said you could be the only one with an evil heart!? But I’m working on it …)

I always wondered did Adam have to deal with eve's periods? imagine no where to hide from Eve. After all she was the first to put primative W.I.N. in place.

Luke 16:27-31
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

How do you think about this?

I don't know about that link, but I can say about the quote above:
Yeshua-Salvation is called the Word, and the Word of God in the Old Testament was given by Him. As the Word Made Flesh He spoke on Torah (the reference to Moses- Torah is also called the Books of Moses). There was no New Testament to comment on! Also, to break from Torah would have been sin, which would have disqualified Him as the Messiah, as well as our perfect sacrifice. The Jews expected the Messiah to explain Torah better, which He did. Here He is simply commenting on the fact that his brothers will not see the truth even if someone came back from the dead to tell them!

Kind of prescient because Jesus did come back from the dead, and many believed Him. Others did not, coming instead to Christian Forums to try and vex me!

What I mean by asking this question is, does it mean that listening to Moses and the prophets means that the Jews could follow the teachings of the Old Testament,

Or the Jews must follow the New Testament,
Because prophecy is to show Jesus Christ.

It's all one book! To follow the New is to follow the Old. The real question is "must the Jews accept Jesus as their Messiah and Savior?" The answer to that is a resounding "Yes!"

The question is How can one who is not of the lineage of Israel, become partakers of the covenant of God? Lets take a look into (Ephesians 2:11-22) let’s look at the 11th through 13th verses. "Wherefore remember, that ye being in the time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (12th vs.) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenant of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (13th vs.) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." Now, 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Sunday doctrine has nothing to do with the apostles and prophets or Jesus Christ. The foundation of the church started in the wilderness on the seventh day of the week, Stephen mention that in Acts 7:38 - This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

We understand that Peter said in 2Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Let's look at some prophecy concerning Israel return in Moses writing.

We also understand that in the future Israel will return as nation from this captivity, let's take a look at it in Deuteronomy 30: 1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 and shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 that then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 and the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

If a stranger come under the covenant then that stranger will become a spiritual Israelite, but as far as his chosen, that's Israel, now and later as a nation again. The lord have not changed his ways. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed (Malachi 3:6) or Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

BroTan,
Pretty good there, except I believe if one is truly grafted in, an heir by adoption, then he would become an Israelite. But then it becomes incumbent on him to be obedient. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15. The only place those could be found was in the Old Testament. And the greek term translated "commandments" there is G1785 ἐντολή entolē; "injunction, that is, an authoritative prescription: - commandment, precept." Sounds a lot like "Torah." And since Jesus spoke Hebrew ... everyone who calls themselves by the name of the God of the Hebrews is enjoined to keep His Torah.

Look back to Ruth. Naomi said “See, your sister-in-law has gone back to her people and to her gods; return after your sister-in-law.” But Ruth replied “Do not urge me to leave you or to return from following you. For where you go I will go, and where you lodge I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there will I be buried. May the Lord do so to me and more also if anything but death parts me from you.” Ruth 1:15-17. That was how you were, and still are saved.

Ruth was placing a lot of trust in the God Naomi served. Note her sister in law had gone back to her people and her gods. Back then politics and religion were one and the same. To go home she had to once again worship and serve her old gods. But look at Ruth's response; she would go with Naomi to this strange land and a people who she did not know. And to death she would worship the God of Israel. Now she had been married to Naomi's son, so she knew what she was accepting as far as the God of Israel goes.

Today we do not think in the same terms. We move place to place with ease, giving little thought to the gods of the lands we go to. However salvation is still the same. We are to terminate any old ties that bind our loyalties away from God. We trust in God alone, worshiping only Him, and serving Him by obeying His commandments. Again, Jesus said it: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15.

there are many nations & cities in history that were destroyed and never came back. WE see the ruins of ancient Babylon. Nineveh, Jerico, and many others.


YET, it is with Isreal we see not only a nation come back but its people, and its Captial City Jerusalem.

The Word of God shows us Isreal would be held captive and dispersed throughout the world Then brought back. That happened.

Their dead language was brought back, Their land was brought back.

The mathematical possibles of a nation 2000 years ago coming back as Isreal has, are against all odds. BUT God.

Science claims their Genomes and DNA can be traced back to ancient Jews. There's multiple articles about it. When it comes to tracking DNA, I would trust Science over a preacher who does not think even the Middle East Muslims are not related to Abraham.

Thank you for bringing up a proposed methodology for determining whether someone is a descendent of Judah, Israel, and Abraham. Using DNA isn't as simple as it sounds, and one wouldn't understand this unless you dig into the science and understand the potential conflicts and errors in play.

There are misconceptions about how DNA testing works and what it tells us.

DNA tests can tell you how related certain people are to one another, but the locations or specific naming of that ancestry is based on testimonials from groups of people describing where they were from or other details. There are also statistical obstacles related to accuracy. Identical twins will likely have slightly different results from the same test from the same company. You could have a 0% result for a specific genetic profile but there is always a hidden +/- in that result. Some companies will even periodically update previous results based on new data.

Even if you can established that you are related to a group of people and everyone within the group is related to each other, that still doesn't prove that their collective claim of "being a descendant of X" is true. Basically, with DNA testing, common ancestry can likely be established but who those ancestors were and where they come from is entirely dependent on other sciences such as archaeology.

The problem is that you need a very old sample which qualifies as your definition of what a pureblooded descendant of Israel would be. The moment you start comparing against an old sample that is not pureblooded, there is suddenly the potential that the match you are seeing isn't based on the true Israelite ancestry but the ancestry of whichever other groups breeded in. The religion was open to proselytes therefore breeding with outside groups necessarily happened but genetic homogeneity was not necessarily maintained.

I welcome any scientific article you have, but the selection of the genetic sample considered the definition of Biblical Jewish genetics is likely going to the point of contention. This isn't exactly an entry level topic.

That word "church" in that verse should have actually been "congregation" since almost all those people were unbelievers and ended up worshipping the Golden Calf. There was no church in the wilderness, since the Church only includes those believers who have been redeemed. All the Israelites perished in the wilderness for their unbelief and rebellion.

But they are able to trace the routes when the Jews left Israel because those were ancient trading routes. And all along those routes, there are families whose names were recorded then and still exist today within modern day Jews. It's more than just DNA Science is making this conclusion. It's based on several factors.

Yes, I understand that. But the issue is there are those, some here, trying to say Jews are not real Jews. They have no linage to Biblical Jews. That is false. We don't replace the Jews as Christians. There is no "new Jew". They are trying to say they have no right to Israel and that is foolishness. They are still trying to erase the Jewish people. Thus my point, we know who is Jewish, we know where they are from.

Islam is a religion, not a people. It has taken over many peoples, so there are many relationships. However according to a Moody class my wife took (and I unashamedly looked over the materials) there is a common misconception regarding the lineage of the Arabic people that they are descended from Abraham through Ishmael. However Ishmael fathered the Bedouins, not the Arabs, who historically already existed before Abraham. I am trying to find that info in my notes, but it is either buried or lost, so this is from memory. Sorry I can't be more detailed.

I know that, but when you see the word Muslim, most think of a people before religion. But i agree that Muslim is a Religion.

"Chosen for what" is a question that few ask, but it's important and needs to be addressed. Abraham's seed were entrusted with the Scriptures on behalf of humanity and with the bloodline of the Messiah. But the promise to Abraham was that through his seed ALL THE EARTH would be blessed.

The Jews were chosen by God to preserve His Word and to produce Jesus Christ. That does not mean that ALL of them will be saved.

The Gentile Christian today is ALSO chosen by God.

I would say that most people who understand Islam don't see it as a people. There are tons of nations which are predominately Muslim that are EXTREMELY ethnically different. Saudi Arabia (93% Muslim) versus Pakistan (96%) versus Indonesia (87%) versus Uzbekistan (88%). Then there are several different flavors of the Arabic language itself.

The study of history is a soft science in itself, subject to its own levels of uncertainty. Are modern geneologies now considered inspired works? Did proselytes take on common Jewish surnames when they converted? Retain old names? Or create new unique ones?

And what about those of Jewish heritage that amalgamated into Christianity? How do we come to the conclusion that no one of those lineages is currently representative in the Christian community today?

The land claim to modern Israeli bloodright to the land isn't just about the right to the land, it is about exclusive right to the land. Exclusive right (meaning they claim to be the only true descendants) is difficult to objectively substantiate when you understand the kinds of uncertainties involve in DNA testing or anecdotal genealogical claims.

There are claims to Jewish ancestry and then there are claims to being a group that exclusively has Jewish ancestry. The presenter in that YouTube video was using the same argument that some Rabbinic interpretations, just with the tables turned. A rabbinic order might declare that only their ethnicity contains the descendants of true Jews. The video presenter was proposing the counter concept that only Christians are descendants of true Jews. If his argument is hateful, so is the argument from the rabbinic orders. It's the same argument from different angles. Both arguments must be weighed the same. And if evidence weighs in favour of a particular theory, we can explore that.

By all means, throw down some scientific literature.