Doctrine of Unconditional Election

FreeGrace2 said:
Why do you quote this verse? It's not about election or it would have mentioned election. It is about how one is saved; which is THROUGH FAITH.
No I didn't say that. Please pay attention. I have said that election isn't to salvation, which you believe it is.

Of course grace is associated with salvation. Duh.

Why do you think Eph 2:8 is "clear as can be" regarding election, since the word isn't even mentioned??

Yes, election is by grace as well, but remember your argument to me about all my verses. You dismissed all of them on the basis of linking service to election even when the verse didn't mention election. However, as I pointed out, in EVERY example, the service was directly linked to those who were chosen. And now you're trying to do the very same thing. That's hypocritical.

Sure. But election is a different issue. You just won't admit it.

Let me show you how "linkage" works appropriately.

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. OK, this is as clear as it can get. Jesus told Ananias that Paul was His "chosen instrument" and even included the purpose of this election: "to proclaim My Name to the Gentiles". Service.

Now, let's see how Paul himself viewed his election to this specific service.

Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the task of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.

Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’

Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

Acts 27:23 - Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me

Rom 1:9 - God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of His Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last nay God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.

Rom 15:17 - Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God.

Rom 15:25 - Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the Lord’s people there.

1 Cor 3:5 - What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

1 Cor 4:1 - This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.

2 Cor 4:5 - For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.

2 Cor 11:8 - I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.

Gal 1:10 - A I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man

Eph 3:7,8,9 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

Col 1:25 - I have become its (the Church) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— direct reference to Acts 9:15. Also v.23

1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

1 Tim 2:7 - And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.

How could it be any more clear than these verses from Paul's own mouth?

He considered his election as an appointment to service, and repeatedly refers to himself as a servant of Christ.

I rest my case. There is NO mention that Paul was elected to salvation. There ARE verses that he was elected to be a servant.

John146 said:
My point is, you were wrong for stating that God hated Esau before he was in the womb. That's not what Scripture says.


But this is STILL in error. Paul quoted from Malachi 1:2,3 in Rom 9:13. He wasn't speaking about an individual, but the people can came from Him, which were the Edomites, who were very evil and presecuted the Jews.

I think this is a Bible Discussion Forum, not a one-to-one debate platform. Everyone has the right to comment but everyone has the right to choose not to respond.

Its salvation !

So the argument that election is for service and not for salvation is just dumb, right?

The argument that we SAVE OURSELVES through OUR FAITH and then later God puts us to service for this great act is dumb.

What does "not of yourselves" mean?


Arguing with blind men over the color of rainbows again...

fredoheaven said:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Again Service...
You have not proven your claim from Scripture. When you come to "chosen" or "elect", you PRESUME it refers to being saved.

If you were correct, Paul would have written Eph 2:8 this way:

by grace are you saved through election, and that not of yourselves.

In fact, there are many verses that would have been differently:

Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes (IS ELECTED) first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

ACTS 16:31 - They replied, “Believe (BE CHOSEN) in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

John 3:15,16
15 that everyone who believes (HAS BEEN CHOSEN) may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes (HAS BEEN CHOSEN) in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

I guess you would actually agree with these very silly changes.

You see, there IS a condition for salvation. It isn't election. It's belief in Christ as Savior.

I'd like to introduce you to 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Your argument is specious. No one is arguing that man saves himself through faith. That is ludicrous.

The Bible is clear: God saves those who believe.

What the Bible doesn't say is that God saves those He has elected.

What verse shows that election is to salvation? I've provided many verses that specifically state the purpose of election is to service in those verses.

You have NOT done that for your own views.

That is a significant difference between our views. I have supported mine with Scripture, unlike yourself.

Who says, we are the ones that “SAVE OURSELVES through OUR FAITH”? Our faith in Christ saves us. No one is saving himself when he placed his faith in Christ. It is Christ who saves. Actually, that’s what Christ says and your disbelief or full rejection of what Christ says saves no one. John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Another John 3:15 says That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Because Calvinism denies these and therefore errs of the truth of the scripture.

When I realized I am a sinner in need of salvation, and learned that Jesus died on the cross for my sins so that I could be saved...I called upon the Lord Jesus for salvation. What was my part? Realizing that I'm going to hell without Jesus. You call that saving yourself? It's the complete opposite. It's realizing I cannot do anything to save myself from my sins. I need a Savior.

Your first sentence confuses me: "no one is saving himself when he placed his faith in Christ" yet by so doing, he becomes saved, right? Well, if it was because of his choice to place his faith in Christ and by it he became saved, then he's saved himself, hasn't he? In-effect he has become his own savior since he controls/ed the outcome. Likewise, if he doesn't come to faith in Christ then by not doing so, he is unsaved. This too then was of himself because he chose not to place his faith in Christ? So, to this point at least, he's either become saved or not depending upon his own choices and Christ has had absolutely nothing to do with it. -- according to you, the person's role falls between Christ and salvation so how then is Christ the Saviour since He didn't do the saving? Shouldn't the role of a Saviour consist of, and control, all aspects of salvation if He is truly the Saviour? What am I missing?
This is not the only flaw that I see with the that kind of thinking, but it's as start.

So, you agree that you weren't saved by any action of yourself? If so, then maybe it was of Christ having already saved you and your realization and fear an affect/result of it? True realization cannot happen until one is given a renewed mind by the Holy Spirit:

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Calling upon the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation is not a work. Calvinism is a theology of the enemy.

Simply, this is according to what Christ says not what your opinion says. "Verily, verily.." I would understand this as truth.

Okay, so you mean you are unable to provide a reasonable, logical explanation, but regardless, will continue to act in-accordance with your understanding, no matter how illogical it may be? Have you considered the possibility that your understanding might be wrong?
God's Gospel can never be illogical nor contradict itself.

Speaking of being "illogical", what about the FACT that I've provided plenty of verses that specifically state the purpose of various elections, which is SERVICE, and you have shown NO verses showing election to salvation, yet you still cling to that idea.

That would qualify as being very illogical.

You believe something but have no verses that say what you believe.

I have verses that clearly state what I believe.

I don’t reject the doctrine of election.

I do reject much of what you teach as a Christ-less false doctrine.






Do you believe people are are saved without ever hearing the good news of Jesus Christ?



I doubt you will answer with a straight answer.





JPT

Oh, I'll happily answer you. I've said it before and I'll say it again, we are saved by God BEFORE we can hear the Gospel spiritually. In fact,
we cannot truly hear the Gospel with spiritual ears, until and unless we're saved/born again. Otherwise, it would be our work, not Gods.

Why do you think Christ said this:

[Mat 13:13-14 KJV] 13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

and this:

[Jhn 3:3 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I provided verses that biblically and logically grounded. Human logic can not withstand the scripture of truth.