The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

^ If you cannot discern the DIFFERENCE between (His saying these TWO things):

-- "I GO TO PREPARE a place for you" (said to His disciples in His UPPER ROOM Discourse, AFTER His Olivet Discourse);

-- what He had said [regarding] to/ABOUT the Sheep [of the NATIONS-PL] in Matt25 (as PART OF His [earlier] Olivet Discourse), "Come, ye BLESSED of my Father, inherit the kingdom HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you FROM [apo (not "BEFORE / pro" said of OTHERS elsewhere!)] the foundation of the world"
[the BLESSED contrasted with the CURSED--see OT references on this point ; and He STATES this to them AFTER He "COMES" (and ALL the holy angels WITH HIM)... that is, COMES to the EARTH to sit on "the throne of His glory"--"31 WHEN the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: "]



... then I can't really help you.






Believe what you wish, @Heaven_Bound

^
He prepared a place for us 2,000 years ago.

You know you cannot answer my question so now you are trying to manipulate me.

Why not just answer my question?

Those who Christ gathers at His Second Coming, are they 100% Alive?

No, I'm not a liar.

I've explained it numerous times and in many ways, throughout this thread (and in related threads and many past posts).

PRE-tribbers AGREE that He only "RETURNS" once... and that word "RETURN" speaks of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH ("SON OF MAN cometh / coming of / comes / shall come / etc...<--said many times throughout the Gospels accounts [NONE of which speaks to "our RAPTURE [IN THE AIR] / SNATCH" / "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" *UP THERE* event])

Matthew 24 does not claim He returns to Earth during His Second Coming [[before]] Gathering His people.

How come you twist it to mean so, IF YOU ARE NOT A LIAR?

Looks to me that when he returns, he will return to earth and sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem. See also Luke 1:32.

Matthew 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

If you are referring to "John N Darby," no he did not... That myth has been long DEBUNKED, David... as shown in many threads.

You must've asked the same question a dozen times by now.

It's up to you to defend your position by answering it.

So please take the podium and bedazzle us with your brilliance.

Hello? His people Israel? Covenants and promises made to Abraham? King David? Thousands of Old Testament prophecies pertaining to these parties.....yet to be completely fulfilled? Ezekiel 40 millennial Temple? And so much more.....

Wrong.
You are typical of the new age religion type appearing since the 1960's.
Can you show us a date in the 1800's...or any prior to 1960's of that position being captured in published form?

We are waiting....?

"...and hast redeemed US to God by Thy blood OUT-OF EVERY kindred and tongue and people and nation" Revelation 5:9, written in about 95ad; in the section about the "future" aspects of the Book of Rev. (stated [UP IN Heaven] BEFORE Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" by His opening the FIRST SEAL which "kicks off" the "7 years" unfolding upon the earth [yet future])

The gathering or rapture is only for those who are alive and remain at the second coming.

The raptured saints are taken to clouds of the Earth to meet Christ who is waiting there for them.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Christ will bring the dead in Christ with him.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Those who are alive and survived something very terrible cannot "prevent" the dead in Christ which simply means the living will not meet with Christ before the dead in Christ meet him. This also proves the dead in Christ are not on Earth and raptured with the living. The dead come from heaven with Christ as verse 14 says.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is how the living cannot meet with Christ before the dead do. Christ will leave heaven and the dead in Christ will resurrect. They will come with Christ as verse 14 says.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1. Christ leaves heaven.
2. The dead in Christ resurrect.
3. The dead in Christ come with Christ, following him.
4. The living will be changed and then are caught up/raptured (Harpazo in Greek) to the clouds of the Earth.
5. The living meet Christ and the formerly dead in Christ at those clouds.
6. The second coming will continue with Christ descending to the Earth, likely to Armageddon first, then to Mt Zion.
7. It's possible he goes to Mt Zion first, and Armageddon second. The text is not clear on that.

The dead will not be raptured and the living will not be resurrected. The dead go DOWN from heaven and the living go UP from the Earth.

Everything you said is unbiblical nonsense. No one is going to listen to this. Anyone who claims the church has an ending should be ignored and anyone who doesn't know the church started with the 12 disciples doesn't have a clue about the bible.

It's wrong of either side or any side to hurl things like "LIAR". It's a bad look and I apologize for my post-trib brothers bad behavior. Sure we believe you are wrong but lying is a whole other thing and brings a bad spirit into a debate. Hopefully he will recognize that this is not appropriate and use better corrective language.

Here's a post I had made some time back about someone some 100 years before Darby (Darby was in the 1800s), showing in his writings that he saw a distinction between the two events (separated BY TIME)... but he seems to have perhaps seen only a 3.5 yr difference (though it's not certain that he didn't see a 7-yr difference; ... if there was an "interpreter" of his writings attempting to "explain" his intentions... I'd have to read that again, to see what they said about the "parenthetical comments" shown in the quote, and whose comments those actually were... I forget atm):

Post #2594 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4568508

Morgan Edwards' writings in 1744 (and repeated again in 1788)

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html


By far the biggest mistake post-tribulationists have made attacking the rapture is claiming that the pretribulation rapture wasn’t taught before 1830. In fact, John L. Bray, a Southern Baptist evangelist, offered $500 to anyone who could prove that someone taught the rapture doctrine prior to MacDonald's 1830 vision. Bray was first proven wrong when he wrote in a newsletter, "Then my own research indicated that it was Emmanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit Catholic priest, who in the 1812 book The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, first taught this theory." Bray stuck his neck out again when he made another $500 offer to anyone who could provide a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's 1812 writings. Apparently he had to cough up the 500 bucks. I quote him again: "I offered $500 to anyone who would give a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's time which taught a two-stage coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time. ” No one claimed that offer until someone found writings that forced Bray to write the following: “Now I have the Photostat copies of a book published in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1788 but written in 1742-1744 in England, which taught the pretribulation rapture before Lacunza." Lately, a number of other sources have been located that teach the pretribulation rapture--some written as early as the second century.

Was cv5's point grasped, I wonder?


____________




On a different note... where ewq said:

Yes. True dat.

How is it Wrong?

Christ told us when He returns.

You either believe Him that there is Only One more time He Returns, or you do not by claiming He makes a secret Coming.

Either Christ is a Liar because He makes 2 Comings, or those who do not take His Words literal are Liars!

There [is NO] in between.

A liar knows they are not telling the truth. People who are pre-trib believe in what they say so they are not liars but are simply wrong ie: a false teacher. Yelling at people and telling them they are liars is a mean thing to do and it's bad behavior. These are brothers and sisters not Satanists. I hate that doctrine as much as you do but there is a line I don't think should be crossed. Satan loves our infighting. It's important to disagree and correct but it should be done in love and I am guilty of lacking some of that love at times and I don't like when that happens but I do avoid accusing them of being liars.

I can buy they don't realize it.

But when I point out Jesus said...He Returns One more Time, how many times do they get before it is no longer misunderstanding and it is because they Refuse Gods Word as He said it?

You can't force someone to understand the truth. Either they will eventually get it or they never will. When I post to disprove pre-trib only maybe ten percent of my effort is intended for that person. 90 percent is meant for those reading who likely will never even post anything. Most of the people who post often have already set their minds and will never change or accept what others say. Some will and I have asked God to publicly change someone's mind on one of these hotly debated topics. If God agrees on that, that will be an exciting day.