Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

Good luck in the tribulation…don’t take the mark, endure to the end, and you better keep the commandments or else…

I stopped reading right here. Jesus plainly says the resurrection of the Just is at the end of the world, at which time He repeatedly promised to raise the righteous "at the last day", OK?

If you don't know something, ASK - don't just start spouting antagonistic nonsense about "doctrine of man".

Why wouldn't I keep the commandments ALWAYS? I love the LORD!!!

Not sure if the 'or else' is because you believe I will be 'under the law' for some reason??? but that couldn't be further from the truth.

Actually it is you who best be keeping the commandments because if you are found to be with spot or blemish, you aren't going to 'rapture' anywhere. How many do you figure are at any given time are without spot or blemish? Since Christ appears like lightening, it doesn't give you time to repent before that 'twinkle' has come and gone. Should have been watching every second of every day. Me, I just need to make sure to endure to the end because I will know the exact day and I will not have the mark.

So what happens to all those who 'miss the flight'? NOW, they end up here for the trib anyway and worse yet is they don't know how to make sure they do not take the mark AND they don't have much time to prepare for the coming days either. Tomorrows newspapers don't do any good if tomorrow has arrived. Let's say that 'that twinkle' just took place this very second. Are you 'without sin' or are you not loving a brother as commanded? Pre trib is actually a very scary way to live life. When can any peace be found? It is like living under the law. Me, I am free for the bondage of that and prepared for what is coming.


Pre trib believers don't seem to think the whole thing through really. They seem to think that the UNDER GRACE at death is the same for Pre Trib. BUT it isn't at all. They stick to the parts that fit and whitewash over the parts that don't and fill in the holes with ambiguous verses here and there. Like debating here means anything good if you are teaching false doctrines. After all judgment starts with those who do.
So, ME, I wont be needing any luck, I have FAITH, wisdom and knowledge. I am looking to attain a better resurrection. I am looking to come in FIRST place in the race. I am striving for the prize. I want to be a vessel of gold with honor and not a vessel of wood and dishonor.

I stumbled upon this one day and it changed something in me. Up until then I hadn't ever really thought much about 'how our works do follow us'. But once I read this then I saw the different vessels, then "thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain" and it hit me. I think that is another reason I hate that OSAS doctrine of 'learn the words of God from the conclusions others have come to'. There are so many of the OSAS works salvationists making us feel bad about something good and how the 'gift' isn't to be worked for, and what gets lost is the 'not all will be the same' for all eternity. We only have right now to do the best we can to be who we will be FOR EVER. We never get to come back. We never get to do it again. This is our one and only chance. What if I die first? Do I want to show up being someone who never would have picked up the cross? Never would have made a stand? Needed to escape tribulation because of fear of taking the mark of the beast? What kind of FAITH is that anyway? So I leave you with this.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order 5001 Christ the firstfruits afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

CHRIST - The firstfruits - THE 7 STAR GENERAL
ALL OF US - from E 1s - O 10s

5001. tagma
Strong's Concordance
tagma: that which has been arranged in order, spec. a division, rank
Original Word: τάγμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: tagma
Phonetic Spelling: (tag'-mah)
Definition: that which has been arranged in order, a division, rank
Usage: rank, division, an ordered series.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5001 tágma (a neuter noun) – an ordered arrangement, reflecting God's perfect wisdom in ordering all of creation (it only occurs in 1 Cor 15:23). See 5021 (tassō).

division, class, group
From tasso; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession -- order.

5021. tassó
Strong's Concordance
tassó: to draw up in order, arrange
Original Word: τάσσω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: tassó
Phonetic Spelling: (tas'-so)
Definition: to draw up in order, arrange
Usage: (a) I assign, arrange, (b) I determine; mid: I appoint.
HELPS Word-studies
5021 tássō – properly, arrange (put in order); to place in a particular order, appoint; (figuratively) ordain, set in place; "station" (J. Thayer).

5021 /tássō ("place in position, post") was commonly used in ancient military language for "designating" ("appointing, commissioning") a specific status, i.e. arranging (placing) in a deliberate, fixed order.

WHO KNEW? Me, so no need to wish me 'good luck ' as LUCK WILL BE HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH IT for me.

3 1/2 years compared to ALL ETERNITY. You do the math. AND if I suffer specifically for standing up in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and not denying His Name, don't you worry one bit about me. I believe in the promises of God and a better resurrection.


If I don't know something I will ASK, I am not just spouting antagonistic nonsense about doctrine of man I am giving Scripture but you aren't going to read. I understand what you believe. I've done part. I given the warning and now no blood on my hands.

No more Jew and Gentile, bro.

Let's pretend the Jews set up a new temple and inside start sacrificing lambs and burning them on altars - such sacrifices would be a collective Jewish middle finger in the face of God, saying, "Hey Lord, here's what we think of Your "Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world", would they not?

Now, would God ever inspire Paul to call such a building "THE TEMPLE OF GOD"??? Never in a bazillion years, bro. The Jews got NUTHIN to do with end times prophecy. The "temple of God" in which the Antichrist sits is the New Testament church, brother, and most Christians are following Antichrist's teachings.

Why do you refuse to accept the Biblical truth that the Breath of Life and the Soul are two different things?

Actually, just read Genesis 2:7 because that's exactly what it says. In the Hebrew it says:

You teach the Living Soul was an instrument in God's hand used to make Adam - that is not the case.

It plainly says the Soul was the RESULT of God wielding His Breath of Life as He placed it into the Body,

Oh, so now you're a Pantheist ?

LOl Look, bro, Solomon says plainly the Spirit ascends and descends, contrary to your flawed conclusion that it meanders around like some Pantheistic pagan god.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 KJV talks about the "Spirit" of man going upward to God (obviously at death) and the Spirit that comes down from God (obviously at birth) to a beast of the animal kingdom.

Also, Stephen was looking heavenward at Jesus when he asked Jesus to recieve his Spirit.

Job says God gathers His Breath to Himself - where's God? UP THERE ON HIS THRONE.

Why wouldn't I keep the commandments ALWAYS? I love the LORD!!!

Not sure if the 'or else' is because you believe I will be 'under the law' for some reason??? but that couldn't be further from the truth.

Actually it is you who best be keeping the commandments because if you are found to be with spot or blemish, you aren't going to 'rapture' anywhere. How many do you figure are at any given time are without spot or blemish? Since Christ appears like lightening, it doesn't give you time to repent before that 'twinkle' has come and gone. Should have been watching every second of every day. Me, I just need to make sure to endure to the end because I will know the exact day and I will not have the mark.

So what happens to all those who 'miss the flight'? NOW, they end up here for the trib anyway and worse yet is they don't know how to make sure they do not take the mark AND they don't have much time to prepare for the coming days either. Tomorrows newspapers don't do any good if tomorrow has arrived. Let's say that 'that twinkle' just took place this very second. Are you 'without sin' or are you not loving a brother as commanded? Pre trib is actually a very scary way to live life. When can any peace be found? It is like living under the law. Me, I am free for the bondage of that and prepared for what is coming.


Pre trib believers don't seem to think the whole thing through really. They seem to think that the UNDER GRACE at death is the same for Pre Trib. BUT it isn't at all. They stick to the parts that fit and whitewash over the parts that don't and fill in the holes with ambiguous verses here and there. Like debating here means anything good if you are teaching false doctrines. After all judgment starts with those who do.
So, ME, I wont be needing any luck, I have FAITH, wisdom and knowledge. I am looking to attain a better resurrection. I am looking to come in FIRST place in the race. I am striving for the prize. I want to be a vessel of gold with honor and not a vessel of wood and dishonor.

I stumbled upon this one day and it changed something in me. Up until then I hadn't ever really thought much about 'how our works do follow us'. But once I read this then I saw the different vessels, then "thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain" and it hit me. I think that is another reason I hate that OSAS doctrine of 'learn the words of God from the conclusions others have come to'. There are so many of the OSAS works salvationists making us feel bad about something good and how the 'gift' isn't to be worked for, and what gets lost is the 'not all will be the same' for all eternity. We only have right now to do the best we can to be who we will be FOR EVER. We never get to come back. We never get to do it again. This is our one and only chance. What if I die first? Do I want to show up being someone who never would have picked up the cross? Never would have made a stand? Needed to escape tribulation because of fear of taking the mark of the beast? What kind of FAITH is that anyway? So I leave you with this.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order 5001 Christ the firstfruits afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

CHRIST - The firstfruits - THE 7 STAR GENERAL
ALL OF US - from E 1s - O 10s

5001. tagma
Strong's Concordance
tagma: that which has been arranged in order, spec. a division, rank
Original Word: τάγμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: tagma
Phonetic Spelling: (tag'-mah)
Definition: that which has been arranged in order, a division, rank
Usage: rank, division, an ordered series.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5001 tágma (a neuter noun) – an ordered arrangement, reflecting God's perfect wisdom in ordering all of creation (it only occurs in 1 Cor 15:23). See 5021 (tassō).

division, class, group
From tasso; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession -- order.

5021. tassó
Strong's Concordance
tassó: to draw up in order, arrange
Original Word: τάσσω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: tassó
Phonetic Spelling: (tas'-so)
Definition: to draw up in order, arrange
Usage: (a) I assign, arrange, (b) I determine; mid: I appoint.
HELPS Word-studies
5021 tássō – properly, arrange (put in order); to place in a particular order, appoint; (figuratively) ordain, set in place; "station" (J. Thayer).

5021 /tássō ("place in position, post") was commonly used in ancient military language for "designating" ("appointing, commissioning") a specific status, i.e. arranging (placing) in a deliberate, fixed order.

WHO KNEW? Me, so no need to wish me 'good luck ' as LUCK WILL BE HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH IT for me.

3 1/2 years compared to ALL ETERNITY. You do the math. AND if I suffer specifically for standing up in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and not denying His Name, don't you worry one bit about me. I believe in the promises of God and a better resurrection.


If I don't know something I will ASK, I am not just spouting antagonistic nonsense about doctrine of man I am giving Scripture but you aren't going to read. I understand what you believe. I've done part. I given the warning and now no blood on my hands.

FreeGrace2 said:
No, you are the distorter of Scripture. Please stop saying what isn't true. There is nothing a soul oming into existence as a consequence of union of body and breath of life. The Bible says "man became a living being". That is the result of the breath of life, which IS the soul, whether you agree or not, and body. This sentence directly applies to yourself.

I refuse to accept what you think is true, but is unbiblical.

Jesus says if we love Him, we'll keep His commandments - did He not command both Israelite and strangers to keep the Sabbath?

I don't think you're keeping Jesus' commandments...and just what are they?

Man is a tripart being. Do you disagree? Body, soul, and spirit?

They will be converted ... the whole nation of 'em

FreeGrace2 said:
No, you are the distorter of Scripture. Please stop saying what isn't true. There is nothing a soul oming into existence as a consequence of union of body and breath of life. The Bible says "man became a living being". That is the result of the breath of life, which IS the soul, whether you agree or not, and body. This sentence directly applies to yourself.

I refuse to accept what you think is true, but is unbiblical.

FreeGrace2 said:
And this is what you have NEVER proved. All you have is your opinions. God gave the body a soul and "man became living being
Actually the interlinear says "man became a being". You are free to your own opinions.
When God breathed into Adam's clay body, Adam became a LIVING BEING.

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, here is just another example of your very poor discernment and reading skills.

To say "into your hands" Jesus meant that He was submitting to God's PLAN for Him. It says NOTHING about "going UP". You just love to add to the Bible. Adding things the Bible DOESN'T say.

Where in the world do you get your totally ridiculous questions from? Can you show where the text says anything about "going UP"? No. So you come up with these extremely stupid questions.


If you cannot show in ANY of my posts that what you made up here about my conclusions, then just man up, admit your lie and apologize.


I've never argued against this.


And I haven't argued against this either.


So what are you trying to prove?

Mark 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Take a day off from the toils of this world to CONNECT with God. To ENJOY His words wisdom and knowledge. To meditate and ponder upon His works. To REST IN HIM. I 'sabbath' every day. IT IS NOT A BURDEN, it is a joy.




They are summed up in the two. LOVE GOD, Love others. BUT if you REALLY take a look at them, they are GODS original written by His finger ones A THOUSAND TIMES INTENSIFIED.


Used to be we couldn't MURDER anyone. So if you didn't pick up an axe and kill your neighbor you were good.

BUT NOW, not only are we not allowed to do that, we aren't ALLOWED TO THINK about it. Not allowed to ponder on it. Not allowed to have those feelings.

Everyone thinks it all got so much easier, but they think it in the wrong way. What is easier if finding forgiveness. THANK YOU CHRIST JESUS. And THANK GOD because the OTHER change made finding forgiveness that much more necessary.

Yes, it went from physical to mental and emotional so that OUR SPIRIT can be transformed and we can be 'a place' where the Holy Spirit can dwell.

BUT YOU DON'T THINK I AM KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS? That is quite the judgment coming from you. Having no proof and yet making such a statement, isn't that almost/akin to bearing false witness?

I wonder how those 'idle words' are going to be met.

I believe that Adam was created tripart, or trichotomous, as was the woman. When they rebelled, their human spirits died "on that day" and their bodies began the slow process of physical death.

So, all of their progeny were born dichotomous, body and soul, with a dead human spirit. That's what makes people spiritually dead. Their spirit is dead.

So Christ was born with a dead spirit? This whole thing is nonsense. Everyone has a living body, soul and spirit at birth. Being spiritually dead does not mean the spirit in you is dead. It just doesn't have the spiritual life being born again provides.

Noooooo, you refuse to accept that God didn't breathe a soul into anyone - He breathed the Breath of Life into a Body which PRODUCED a Living Soul.

Well, when you strip it all down, it says "dust of the ground" became a living soul.

According to Genesis 2:7 KJV, the Living Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, and at death, when the Breath of Life returns to God and the Body to the dust, the Living Soul ceases to be.

Look, bro, my rebuttals aren't that hard to understand. You said at death the Spirit "returns" to God but not necessarily up, so I showed you that the Spirit DOES GO UP and doensn't meander around like some loitering poltergeist at a 7-11.

Therefore, the Spirit goes up, the Soul "was not left down in hell, WHICH PROVES THE SOUL AND SPIRIT AIN'T THE SAME THING BECAUSE THE ONE GOES UP AND THE OTHER DOWN, CAPICE, OR DO I NEED TO SAY IT IN YOUR MOTHER TONGUE?