NOT EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES WILL BE SAVED

We can take a reductionist approach, which posits that there is only one true position and that true position must always be knowable. Or, we can take a pluralistic approach, which weighs each interpretation by its own merits, in isolation, and then compares.

Is Schrödingers cat alive or dead? Or, is the cat in an indeterminate state? We can use a convention to assume a default resolved state, or we can acknowledge that both statuses are valid despite being mutually exclusive.

Likewise with scripture. "Blinded by the god of the world" could mean God, it could mean Satan, but it can also mean both at the same time (because the statuses aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, as scripture tells us that God can work through people to perform an action). We have three valid approaches that each are possibly true. In order to make something necessarily untrue, one must demonstrate the necessary truth of a mutually exclusive position. I'm not proposing that the competing positions are necessarily true, only that the position you are championing is itself not necessarily true.

To claim that "god of the world" is necessarily describing God in this case would be like claiming that Schrödinger's cat is necessarily alive. It could be, but it is not necessarily the case. I am proposing that the perspective is possibly untrue because there are other valid, mutually exclusive interpretations that are possibly true.

You are in good form to make your case using passages that indicate that God blinds people, but it is not necessarily the case that the first 2 Cor 4:4 theos is about God in exclusion to Satan (even if we can make a strong case for it).

There are clearly translators that felt that "Satan" or simply leaving it ambiguously as 'lower case g' god was sufficient to the intended message of the passage. This might have to do with considerations for translation methods and conventions used in other passages that talked about lesser 'gods'. And while you may have developed your own convention for translation, both interpretations must be considered.

Applying Jesus is all it takes- John 12:31--satan is the ruler of this world.) He most assuredly has godlike qualities. thus a small g god. that means has godlike qualities. If you dont think he does ever since the rebellion in Eden 99% mislead every step of the way. The only exception may have been when Israel stood strong. Noahs day-99.9 % mislead. Jesus compared these last days to Noahs day. Matthew 24:37-40.

There is a subtly in "believing in the name"

For your consideration: https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....icance-of-the-phrase-believing-in-his-name-as

Highlights:

"Expressing the sum of the qualities which mark the nature or character of a person. To believe in the name of Jesus Christ the Son of God, is to accept as true the revelation contained in that title."

"pisteuō eis to onoma autou. This common use of onoma for the person is an Aramaism, but it occurs also in the vernacular papyri and eis to onoma is particularly common in the payment of debts (Moulton and Milligan’s Vocabulary). Ibid. By a usage similar to that of the Heb. שֵׁם, ὄνομα comes in the NT to denote the character, fame, authority of the person indicated (cf. Php_2:9 f., Heb_1:4 ). With this may be compared the use of the word as a title of dignity or rank."

my dislexia will not let me decipher your last comment.
Is it something like " he does not need our permission"?

This thread centers itself on the supposition that, "Not all those who believe will be saved".

I turn that thought upside down, on it's head, and ask a pointed question, "Can you be saved without faith in Jesus?" I know that there are many quotes and Biblical references that say that we are saved through faith. And I think that that is faith and belief in Jesus. So, can one be saved without faith in Jesus?

I would answer yes to that question, from a working knowledge of the Biblical perspective. I will present my arguments for this viewpoint, from a Biblical perspective, from a common sense viewpoint and without throwing in citations for the Biblical verses. And I'm referring to the Bible, both Old and New Testament.

Firstly, let's take the example of the parable of the Good Samaritan and examine it in depth. We know a man was beaten and robbed and left for dead. Both a priest and a Levite saw him and passed him by. Note that both of these were believers in the One True God of Israel. But then the Samaritan comes by and goes out of his way to help and save the injured man. It was no accident that Jesus picked a Samaritan. Note that the Samaritans had lost their faith in the One True God and they worshipped false and pagan gods. This Samaritan had no faith, yet Jesus pointed him out and told us that if we emulated his actions we would acquire eternal life. Jesus said to love God with your whole heart and your neighbor as yourself and you will inherit eternal life.

Secondly, in Matthew's Judgement of Nations, we see Jesus judging, saving and condemning others, in regard as to how they showed their love of neighbor. Jesus teaches us that when we show love of neighbor, we show love for Jesus Himself. But, while judging all nations, Jesus doesn't say or even imply that I judge you saved because you believed in Me.

Thirdly, are all Jews and Muslims who came after Christ denied salvation? When we look at the Muslims, they profess to believe the words of the Bible, but they only believe that Jesus is a prophet and not God. But, for a fact, Jews believe that Christ is a charlatan, a liar, and a fake. The Jews believe in the One True God of Israel but adamantly reject Jesus in every way. So, are all Jews and Muslims after Christ damned?

Fourthly, throughout the centuries, many children have died from many different causes. These children didn't have the mental capacity to understand anything about Jesus and they surely didn't have faith in Him. Jesus even said to bring the children to Him, for it is such as these as to whom the kingdom of heaven belongs. But these children had no faith, are they damned.

Fifthly, Scripture tells us that it's God's will that all be saved and that faith is a gift from God. So those who haven't been gifted the faith, are they damned? Let's use an example of Native American Indians or other civilizations who never heard of Jesus. Are they all damned. The Bible tells us that God is a loving and just God. So, would God damn souls for all eternity that never had a chance to learn about Him?

Don't get me wrong, Christian faith is so important for salvation. But, my question is, "Can a person without faith in Jesus be saved?"

Umm, I would only respond to that which is relevant. No, you are trying to change the word of God as it is. This will of course contradicts the scripture that God wants ALL should come to repentance. Satan is the one that blinded them otherwise the glorious gospel should light upon them. The difference you have quoted/posted in the OT is that God blinded them physically as a result of their wrongdoings. The NT. where Christ healed the man born blind (physical eyes) is with a purpose to show God’s miracle and that the Jews would believe in him, nonetheless, they have rejected him.

Yes, I have to put my trust in the scripture as it is. I just have shown that the scripture holds true and not man’s opinion. Even the literal Bible like YLT had shown how literal yet you try to deny them. As said, Theos can be interpreted in English not only in a capital letter G as in God but also a lower-case “g” and it so happens in the passage of 2 Cor. 4:4 being odd. The Greek Theos, however, cannot only be attributed as divine as God but also utilized to other creatures as “ye are gods” and several entities other than God as a god. It can be said also of the angel, and Satan, the Devil is also a created angel.

Satan influences this fallen, evil world that continues until the time Christ returns and brings in fully the world to come (1 john 5:9. Gal. 1;4). For so God(theos) in v.6 that commands the light of the Christ or the gospel to shine out of the darkness. Many verses show in the scripture that the Devil has control of the world’s system, he even offered Christ (Matthew 4;8-9), Satan is also attributed as the prince of this world (John 12:31; John 14:30) he is also said to be the arch ruler of the darkness of this world (Eph. 2:2; 6:12; 2 Timothy 2:26) and the lost are effectively shielded from the light of the glorious gospel of Christ by him.

One also needs to investigate v. 2 to understand who does the blinding in this passage.

2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

Craftiness- the word implies all subtle, cunning, underhand dealing as in 2 Cor. 11:3 where Satan in the form of a serpent beguiled Eve. This subtlety and dishonesty(fraudulent) and the mishandling of the word of God deceitfully are to be ascribed works of the enemy of God. These are all about” hidden things” (not seen or as blindness and connotes to the works of Theos and you are saying it is God himself. The Scripture attests to the truth that Satan, the Devil is the liar and is the father of it (John8:44.).

Take note also that this blinding does not pertain to the physical eyes but minds. My concordance has 81 occurrences in the whole Bible for the word “blind” and all referring to the sight or the physical eyes.

On the word “blinded”, 2 out of 5 refers to the mind and simply has perhaps against the odd. 2 Cor. 3:14 proves the Jews have their minds blinded, nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, this blindness of the mind is taken away. Hence it is not the Lord that blind the mind of the people (jews) but rather the god of this world has blinded them.

Thanks, but I was hoping for a biblical answer rather than a theological perspective. I appreciate the dialogue we've had on this subject.

Thank you for your reply. First, the scriptures don't say that God wants all to come to repentance as if though he was hoping this happens. It says he is not willing (meaning, that it is not his will) that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV 1900)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Now, since the scriptures declare that God is the one who grants repentance, at his will, then we can be sure that all will come to repentance. But not all making, but all those to whom he has chosen to grant repentance to.

2 Timothy 2:25 (KJV 1900)
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; IF God peradventure (maybe) will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Psalm 80:3 (KJV 1900)
Turn us again, O God, And cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.

In the same context of 2 Peter 3:9, God is using the flood as his example of God not wiling that any should perish. When we compare this language with the account of the flood, we can see that the only ones who were called into the ark were 8 souls. Even though Noah was a preacher of righteousness, no one else was brought in. Noah was preaching the gospel of the coming judgment on the world, yet none responded. Was this Satan preventing the light of the glorious gospel from shining unto them and thus thwarting God's plan? Of course not, no one could. God saved exactly who and how many he intended to save. The rest of the world (men, women and children) were judged and condemned and destroyed.

Hebrews 11:7 (KJV 1900)
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

God is telling us that Noah didn't prepare the ark for the saving of all that should come to repentance, but, just as we read in the flood account, it was for the saving of his house. The world, nevertheless, had to hear that God's judgment was coming.

This parallel helps us correctly understand that 2 Peter 3:9 is in no way saying that it is God's will that all of mankind not perish, and that all of mankind come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:8–9 (KJV 1900)
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward (the beloved), not willing that any (of the beloved) should perish, but that all (the beloved) should come to repentance.

It is impossible that the miracles of healing were for the purpose of the Jews to believe in Christ. If that was true (which it's certainly not), why then did Jesus speak to them in parables? So that they could not hear and understand, and so they could not see and perceive, and therefore so that they could not believe.

Matthew 13:10–15 (KJV 1900)
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

John 12:39–41 (KJV 1900)
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He (GOD) hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his (GOD's) glory, and spake of him (GOD).

Them believing in Christ was not part of God's will. Therefore 2 Peter 3:9 can only be speaking about the beloved, as shown. And 2 Corinthians 4:4 fall in perfect harmony with the above scriptures.

YLT is only a translation and not inspired, only the original text is. So, claiming that I am denying a translation is no big thing, but you're making it seem like it is, which would make you the one who is holding to man's opinion after all.

I agree that Satan is called the prince and the ruler of this world as the scriptures declare.

Luke 4:6 (KJV 1900)
And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

But being the ruler and prince of this world does not make him the god of it. All we have to ask is, who gave him this power? And who is taking it away? The GOD of this world, as he does as he pleases within it since he created it and since the fall of man when he gave Satan temporary, and limited, authority. The KING always rules above everyone else.

Daniel 4:35 (KJV 1900)
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

2 Corinthians 4:1–3 (KJV 1900)
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth (which is Christ) commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Verse 2 is not declaring that someone is doing this, which you presume is the cause of the blinding. But it's declaring that this is not being done. And yet, the gospel is hid to them that are lost. This goes hand in hand with Christ's purpose of speaking in parables and God's purpose for causing the blindness (Jn 12). It was so that they would not be converted, meaning saved. This, again, also harmonizes with 2 Peter 3:9.

it’s funny you keep saying I need to believe Jesus and I keep quoting Jesus teachings to you lol

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:

condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:

forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Yep I sure do believe Jesus do you believe that John had some better understanding tHan you ? I do

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:1

I am not real good at accepting advise from people who can’t acknowledge the Orr own sins and understand it’s about repentance and remission of sins

“And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-48‬ ‭

But yeah I believe Jesus I just don’t fixate on a verse and try to force others to accept my interpretations or demands of what they should do I try to learn from his teachings rather than interpret them in a vacuum

The answer is, what do you mean saved? If you're speaking about initial salvation, meaning the point of regeneration, then no, no one was ever saved/regenerated by their own faith, but by the faith of Christ accompanied by his work of atonement, because faith if it has no works is dead being alone and cannot save (James 2). But faith is a product of salvation. Another way to say it is, faith is a fruit (or a result) of having the spirit of God. So, whenever we read that if we believe in Jesus Christ we shall be saved, this is a true statement. But many have misconstrued this to say that we first have to believe in order to bring about regeneration. After all, it says if we believe we "shall be saved". This is in the future tense, which is what throws off those who read it (without putting all the puzzle pieces together) as if though they have to exercise their own faith first in order to become regenerated.

But they fail to realize that salvation is a process that isn't completed until we receive our incorruptible bodies. That will be the completion of our salvation.

1 Corinthians 15:53–54 (KJV 1900)
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Peter 1:6–9 (KJV 1900)
Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

So, the one who has become saved/regenerated (meaning brought to spiritual life, and been given the Spirit, and has the fruit of the spirit which is faith) can now believe in the way that God requires it and he/she shall be saved indeed.

This is salvation by works. No one inherits eternal life with their own works, rather through the work of Jesus Christ. Upon salvation/regeneration, the true child of God has a desire to obey the commandments of God. This obedience does not add nor take away from our salvation. Rather, we obey the Word of God out of a demonstration of love for the one who has saved us.

John 14:15 (KJV 1900)
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Obedience to God's commandments is designed as a way for us to examine ourselves, whether we are truly saved. Those who "accepted Christ" based on a false gospel, will ultimately reject the idea that they have to obey God's commandments. They say, "we are under grace, not law", and thus deceive themselves. But if God has truly saved us, then he has also given us a new heart which we will desire to walk in obedience. We are not saved by our own works of righteousness, but by Christ's.

Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Again, our obedience is just a demonstration of our love towards Christ. If we think we are saved and yet reject God's commandments, then we have fooled ourselves and were never saved to begin with. Inversely, we can devote our life to Christ and be as faithful as possible in trying to keep his commandments to the best of our ability, but if God has not first saved us, then all that work was of no eternal benefit. Below is an example of many who were performing works of righteousness in the name of Christ, yet they were never saved, as Christ says he never knew them.

Matthew 7:21–23 (KJV 1900)
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

By claiming to believe in God and then rejecting Christ, they are rejecting God himself. So, the claims coming from their mouths are empty words. As far as the Jews are concerned, along with your question here, ever since they were a chosen people and a holy nation, they always only represented God's chosen people here on earth, but they never really were truly saved. Or at least very few were. This patter followed them all throughout the Old Testament into the New Testament. We know that they were only an outward representation of God's true people (the elect) because Christ tells them that they belong to their father the devil.

Furthermore, the scriptures tell us that the blindness God finally placed on them has remained and will remain until the end. And that only a remnant within Israel would be saved.

Romans 11:25–26 (KJV 1900)
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (This means, until the last day)26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The phrase, "And so all Israel shall be saved" does not mean that every single person of Israel will be saved, because as we demonstrated, very few were, in the scriptures. And the word "SO" doesn't mean "then", it means "in this manner all Israel will be saved". In what manner? In the manner described in the verse, by blindness in part until the last day. This means that God has chosen for himself a remnant out of Israel that was to be saved.

Romans 11:5–8 (KJV 1900)
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, GOD hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Christ specified that unless someone is born again, they cannot enter into the kingdom of God. This means that they are not saved. Therefore, any man, woman or child who has never heard the gospel is still under the wrath of God and is still guilty for their sins which is punishable by death (Rom 6:23). But, like John the baptist, if God has chosen a particular child, still in the womb, for salvation, then that child would have indeed come under the hearing of the gospel, as the only prerequisite for regeneration was the hearing of the gospel. The account of Noah's flood teaches us this. Noah had a task to build the ark, but he was also a preacher. Now, no one knows how far he was able to reach with his preaching, but anyone who didn't hear the gospel (the Word of God) in any way shape or form, came under the condemnation of God and perished in the flood.

Eddie you are still confused and still contradicting Scripture. So why don't you study Romans chapter 10 very carefully. You are not saved "by the faith of Christ". You are saved by believing and obeying the Gospel (Mark 16:15,16 and many other passages).

And works will follow genuine saving faith, but that is NOT a condition of justification by grace through faith. Which means you will have to study Romans chapter 4 very carefully.

And justification, regeneration, remission of sins, the gift of eternal life, and the gift of the Holy Spirit all happen at the same time (Titus 3:4-7).

Thank you for your reply. I realize that what I'm explaining from the scriptures isn't going to be received with open arms by everyone, or even by most, nevertheless, it doesn't change what I have put forth. I have dialogued with you several times and your reaction is consistent with me contradicting the scriptures. Yet, I have tried very carefully to show, from the same scriptures, that to believe in Jesus Christ is a commandment. And obedience to any commandment is a work of righteousness. Can someone become saved if they don't bear false witness? How about if they don't steal? etc. The answer is obvious, no. But this snare of believe and you shall be saved is taken at face value and is not compared against the whole of the scriptures.

Had you done so, you would have seen that this indeed is a commandment and not a plea or a request. And taking the scriptures at face value is mistake number 1. I have asked numerous times for scriptures that support your hermeneutic of taking the words of God at face value. I still have not received any. But I can show you where Christ said that without a parable he did not speak. Or, that the word of God is spiritual, and it must be compared, not literal with literal, but spiritual with spiritual. And what is the very nature of parables? To conceal truth with apparently plain words. So, if you re-read my post (290), I explain the difference between regeneration and the completion of our salvation, and how believing comes into play.

You still believe that genuine faith can come from a wicked heart, yet you acknowledge that it is with the heart that one believes unto salvation.

Romans 10:10 (KJV 1900)
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

But with which heart? Well, according to your doctrine, it has to be with the wicked heart prior to regeneration/salvation. But that's not what the Bible says.

Luke 8:15 (KJV 1900)
But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

The same God that describes the heart of the unsaved as evil and desperately wicked, is the same God who is describing this heart in Luke 8:15. Yet, when we can see that God is referring to the honest and good heart as the heart which he has replaced the wicked one with, then this passage harmonizes, but not with your doctrine.

You see, hearing the word (as mentioned in Lk 8:15) means that your spiritual ears have been opened. How do we know?

John 8:43 (KJV 1900)
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot HEAR my word.

John 8:47 (KJV 1900)
He that is of God HEARETH God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

It is only when God has given us that honest and good heart that we can hear the word of God. This is not talking about physical hearing, as the verses made clear. And the fact that we have been given ears to hear the word of God means that we are now children of God, meaning, were saved. So, now that we have been given an honest and good heart (Ez 11:19-20), not only do we have ears to hear, but we also keep the word of God (Lk 18:15). What does that mean? It means we keep his commandments, like this one:

1 John 3:23 (KJV 1900)
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

We are not initially saved by keeping either of the commandments mentioned in 1 John 3:23, for they are works of righteousness. But we keep them as a result of having an honest and good heart and having ears to hear and a desire to obey his commandments.

Ezekiel 36:26–27 (KJV 1900)
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

And no matter where we look in the scriptures, we find agreement (harmony) that we're on the right doctrine. That regeneration has to come first and the only prerequisite was to be under the hearing the gospel. Let me show you another quick example:

Romans 10:13 (KJV 1900)
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This likewise seems plainly written, and in fact, it's taught to be that simple to obtain salvation. But, like "believe and thou shalt be saved", they are not taking the whole of the scriptures into consideration, but rather, it's taken at face value. Here is why that is a mistake all the way around and why this hermeneutic is not taught in the scriptures. Because one has to first be brought from spiritual death to spiritual life so that they can call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. Remember, God writes it as a future tense because our salvation isn't complete until our bodies are changed. But take a look at this passage:

Psalm 80:18 (KJV 1900)
So will not we go back from thee: Quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

What has to take place first before one can call upon the name of the Lord to be saved? He has to make us alive (quicken us). Not only to enable us to call upon his name, but also to repent the way he has commanded it.

Psalm 80:19 (KJV 1900)
Turn us again, O Lord God of hosts, Cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.

Also, you stated that we are saved by believing and obeying the gospel, but obedience never results in salvation, it is the result of salvation, as I have demonstrated.

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

No. ... without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a
rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb 11:6

Here are some things the priest, the Levite, the Samaritan, the Samaritans, the Jews, the Muslims, and the Native
American Indians all have in common:

God intentionally put them in their geographical location and times so that each one of them could seek the Lord and
find Him (Acts 17:26, 27).

Each one of them has faith from the time they first sucked their mother’s nipple to the day they die. Faith is not a gift
given to some and denied to others. When Jesus becomes the OBJECT of a person’s faith - the faith he’s had all
along - he becomes saved.

What may be known of God is made known in them [all men] because God has shown it to them (Romans 1:19).

You need to stop stereotyping people. Not all Jews believe in the one true God of Israel, and not all Samaritans
disbelieve the one true God of Israel. Jesus IS the one true God of Israel. Jesus didn’t say that the priest & Levite had
faith and the Samaritan didn’t have faith.

Jesus told the lawyer, who tempted Him, “this do, and thou shalt live”. It’s impossible for any unsaved person to
perfectly love God & neighbor, so keeping the law is not the way of salvation.

Ministering to the King’s brethren is the characteristic of the blessed (v34), heirs (v34), and righteous (v37); not the
cause of them being blessed, heirs, & righteous. Not ministering is the characteristic of the cursed; not the cause of
them being cursed. (... a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ Gal 2:16)

A Jew cannot believe in the one true God of Israel and also believe that Christ is a charlatan, a liar, and a fake at the
same time; because Jesus IS the one true God of Israel.
In the beginning ... the Word was God ...All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made ... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us ... John 1:1-14
Jesus to the Jews: If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came
I of myself, but he sent me. John 8:42
Jesus to the Jews: ... Ye are of your father the devil ... John 8:44
Jesus to the Jews: ... it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not
known him ... John 8:54-55

Children are born as sinners. Since they don’t have the mental capacity to understand the law, they have no law. ...
sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13 If they die prior to this ability to understand (age of
accountability), they go to heaven.

Civilizations who’ve never heard of Jesus:
None of the Old Testament saints heard of Jesus by name either because the name hadn’t been revealed. These all died in faith ... Heb 11:13 When they (truly) believed in God, they believed in Jesus, even though they didn't know His name; because Jesus is God. You’re describing people to whom the name hadn’t been revealed in post NT times, for whom Christ died, and whom God desires to be saved. ... Who will have all men to be saved ... 1 Tim 2:4
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. Isaiah 43:11
... that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. Titus 2:10
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14
To the only wise God our Saviour ... Jude 1:25
Jehovah/God/Jesus is the only Savior. A person must believe in Him to be saved. Good works will not save.

I am sad that you don't understand the difference between theology and exegesis.

well initially yes

but I meant it in a way relating to the post addressed to me

sorry about your dyslexia

Hello everyone, this has been my second thread thus far, and I'm becoming familiar with how quickly it can veer off topic and how difficult it is to bring it back on topic. But that may be the nature of things with these types of forums. Therefore, as I have done with my first thread, once I felt it reached a point of exhaustion and repetitiveness, I moved onto created another one, and I will be doing the same, this time also.

I don't like to be involved in multiple threads, as that demands too much time and focus to properly respond to those who wish to dialogue with me, so, for simplicity, I only stick with the ones I have started. So, as I did with my first thread, I will be moving on from this thread also, unless someone quotes me directly, in which case, I will certainly respond.

I'd like to thank everyone who participated in this biblical discussion and hope that above all, the Word of the Lord was magnified as our supreme authority.

What is the kingdom of God? We should be, careful here that we do not make the mistake of the self-righteous Pharisees who Jesus told they would receve the greater condemnation because of they were exclusive believing that their righteousness would give them greatness in heaven.

The word kingdom in Matthew was translated from the Greek word, pronounced bas-il-i'-ah, that actually means royal power, kingship, dominion, rule. Jesus is talking about those who were expecting prominence in heaven.
jesus said would be least in the kingdom while the meek and the lowly would be greatest. Also, Jesus is saying here that both will be included in the kingdom. This is consistent with what
Paul said about the wide and narrow gates. Both are doors to heaven. Those that Jesus tells to depart will be those who must pass through the wide gate and the fire where Paul says they will suffer loss but will be saved.

Their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the qual- ity of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Cor. 3:13–15 NIV). I believe by the way that the fire will be Godly sorrows that Paul said bring repentence. It is those who answered the call of Jesus that will escape condemnation and pass through the narrow gate.
Think seriously about what I am saying because it makes much more sense that to believe that the one who commits the least sin will be banned from the kingdom of heaven when we know that Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins.

That destruction you refer to is the destruction of evil not of the soul.

Let’s compare scriptures.



God is said to be the King of the earth (Psalms 47:7), however, it is Jesus that says “my kingdom is not of this world.” His kingdom is yet to come when he will establish them in the future during the coming to his earthly reign of 1,000 years. Even his prayer to His Father says this is true.

Psalms 47:7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.


John 18:36

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Observing, the scripture for the phrase “this world” is being used in 2 Corinthians 4:4 and not “the world”. We know God is both God of the heaven and the earth, but when Satan is cast out, he became the “prince(king) of this world” John 12:31 Eph. 6:12 and by the “god of this world” is understood to be Satan, who by the just judgment of God has gotten such dominion over unbelievers, as if were their God, usurping the honor and sovereignty of God, and the people readily obey and serve him as their Lord and God.

In another, I am still looking for scriptures that say God blinded the mind of the people. All the passages of scriptures in my concordance are referring to that which God inflected and Jesus had healed are the eyes of the people. Perhaps because of your Calvinist leaning is the best way to change them to suit your system and you take the liberty to change the scriptures and this takes a bias position.

Thank you for taking the time to look up additional scriptures regarding how to understand 2 Corinthians 4:4 in order to post them here. The first thing that should be pointed out, is that God never ceased from being the king of this world (earth) ('ereṣ), not even after Satan was cast out because that's not when he was given all power, it was long before the cross, it was after he got man to disobey God in the garden. We know this because when Satan tempted Christ, he tells us that all authority (power) has been given to him.

Luke 4:6 (KJV 1900)
And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Satan was given limited, temporary authority by the one who has supreme authority. The God of this earth. The next verse tells us what "world" Satan was given authority over. It was over this physical earth.

Matthew 4:8 (KJV 1900)
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world (kosmos), ....

What is interesting is that the same earth that God gave Satan power over, is the same earth that God is both, the king and God of.
In other words, not only does the scriptures tell us that God is the king of the earth ('ereṣ ), but it also tells us that he is the God of this earth ('ereṣ ) as well.

Genesis 24:3 (KJV 1900)
And I will make thee swear by the Lord, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth ('ereṣ ), .....

So then, what did Christ mean by what he said about his kingdom not being of this world?

John 18:36 (KJV 1900)
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world (kosmos ): if my kingdom were of this world (kosmos ), then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Well, before Christ made this statement, he was asked by Pilate whether or not he was a king. To which Christ replied, yes.

John 18:37 (KJV 1900)
Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world (kosmos ), ...

In other words, Christ came into the world (kosmos ), the same world (kosmos ) that Satan was given authority over, not to be a future king, but he was born AS king.

Matthew 2:2 (KJV 1900)
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? ...

So, while Christ was born as king of the Jews, people misunderstood this to mean, an earthly king of physical Jews. Neither was true. Nevertheless, people tried to make him take his place as what they thought he came for.

John 6:15 (KJV 1900)
When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed...

But he indeed was king of the Jews, not of the physical Jews but of the true Jews, which are the elect of God. God clarifies our misconception of the physical Jews.

Romans 2:28–29 (KJV 1900)
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; ...
This is what the Bible refers to as the Israel of God.

Galatians 6:16 (KJV 1900)
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


Let's compare something:
- Satan was given power over the world (kosmos") and the world (oikoumenē). Both Greek words are used to identify the same thing, this physical earth.
- But when referring to the God of this world, neither of the above words are used. Instead, we see the word "aiōn ". This word is mostly translated as "ever", then as "world", but it has nothing to do with a physical world, rather it's best understood as "age", which describe periods of time.

2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV 1900)
In whom the GOD of this world (aiōn) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Compare with:

Ephesians 3:21 (KJV 1900)
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world (aiōn) without end (aiōn). Amen. (Better translated as, "throughout all generations, age (aiōn) of the ages (aiōnōn). Amen").


Understanding this, helps us when we come across another passage similar to that of 2 Corinthians 4:4 about the God of this world (age) blinding the minds of them which believe not.

Colossians 1:25–27 (KJV 1900)
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages (aiōnōn) and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;...

Everything I have showed you from the beginning of our dialogue on this subject has demonstrated that when it comes to the concealing of God's truth through blinding, that it was done by GOD himself and for the specific purpose outlined in 2 Corinthians 4:4. Lest the light of the glorious gospel should shine unto them. This identifies in every way with salvation. The nation of Israel was blinded by God for a purpose, so that they would reject and crucify Christ according to the perfect will of God. Had God not blinded them and given them eyes to see and ears to hear the truth, then they it means they became saved and they would not have crucified Christ (as Peter protested so).

1 Corinthians 2:6–10 (KJV 1900)
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect (among the saved): yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew (this includes Satan): for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: ...

There are no other scriptures that plainly state that God blinded minds of people. That's because God wrote the Bible to cause us to compare scriptures with scriptures and put the pieces together. How much more information do you need as proof that God is the only one who has ever done any type of blinding? And for the very purpose of not saving.

John 12:37–41 (KJV 1900)
But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 (Here's the reason why) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He (GOD) hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him (GOD).

By the way, the word "mind" (noēma ) that was blinded in 2 Corinthians 4:4, has everything to do with the understanding (noeō )of man. They are the same words in different tenses. John 12:40, thus helps us confirm who has done the blinding, because it was done with the purpose of not understanding (noeō ). It's the same as saying that the GOD of this world has blinded the understanding (mind) (noēma ) of them which believe not. Please examine this for yourself to see if it is so.