Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

We can read this and understand it at the same time.

What verse pinpoints your assumption of = "after death, souls/spirits of the deceased do not go to heaven".

That's a foolish question, seeing a how it's been quoted multiple times by others.

"Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul. "--Genesis 2:7

Here's more:

Acts 17:25
nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

Nehemiah 9:6
“You alone are the Lord.
You have made the heavens,
The heaven of heavens with all their host,
The earth and all that is on it,
The seas and all that is in them.
You give life to all of them
And the heavenly host bows down before You.

1 Timothy 6:13
I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,

--and--

John 1:3-4
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

Job 10:12
‘You have granted me life and lovingkindness;
And Your care has preserved my spirit.

Ezekiel 16:6
“When I passed by you and saw you squirming in your blood, I said to you while you were in your blood, ‘Live!’ Yes, I said to you while you were in your blood, ‘Live!’

Deuteronomy 32:39
‘See now that I, I am He,
And there is no god besides Me;
It is I who put to death and give life.
I have wounded and it is I who heal,
And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Revelation 11:11
But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.

No its not, it is the Rapture, it is pre trib.

The Dead are Raised WITHOUT Corruption (or in plan simple speak, as Spirit Men without Sin Flesh) and thus what do those of us who are alive need to do? We have to be CHANGED, again in simple plain speak, we have to PUT OFF this bodies "CORRUPTION" which is Sin Flesh, yes its redundant, but people confuse why we need to be CHANGED, and its because we are on our way to Heaven where sin flesh CAN NOT ENTER, thus we need to change from a Flesh body to a Spirit body that has been reborn in Jesus, it tells us all thee things in the passages, but people are either confused by the scriptures or by other men's ideas. In essence, if people would just back up about 10 verses and read and study the passage, it is quite easy to understand.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption(Flesh body); it is raised in incorruption(Spirt Man): 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption . {{In other words, no SIN FLESH can become UNSINFUL, so to speak, we must be CHANGED}}

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible(Without sin bodies), and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible(our current bodies as living human beings) must put on incorruption, (or be CHANGED from a human with a body to a Spirit Man which is the Man born of Heaven as shown in verse 47) and this mortal must put on immortality.


Ifs quite sipe really, even in this Old English(e)

We simply DIE as per our human bodies, because our Spirit Man LEAVES that Sin Flesh on earth which CAN NOT enter Heaven as verse 50 clearly tells us, we are thus not WHISKED AWAY, we DIE as Humans and "CHANGE" into that new Spirit Man born of Heaven. Then our Spirit Man goes to Heaven where we will get our new Glorious Bodies.

Men just cant grasp facts it seems today, everyone has their own ideas and don't just simply read the passages.

do you or do you not agree with this man:

these do not define life.
these say, God gives life; life is a gift of God.

please define life per the scripture.. ?

Short answer: No.

Longer answer:

Because the bible plainly says hundreds upon hundreds of times in literal language that the wicked perish and are destroyed. What does John say the lake of fire represents? The second DEATH. And no one receives the gift of immortality EXCEPT the Believer.

Are you not familiar with these well known verses?

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. "--Romans 6:23

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "--John 3:16

“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble; the day is coming when I will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of Hosts. “Not a root or branch will be left to them.” "--Malachi 4:1

Do you not believe that death means death and destroy means destroy? Do a word search for the LITERAL verses that use these terms and stop clinging to few figurative verses. 'e.g. the smoke of their torment goes up forever--by the way that is for those who WORSHIP the beast--it is the literal fire that God will send on the earth at the end of the age--like a few small tremors before the BIG ONE when the heavens and earth are literally destroyed by fire.

Do you believe Christ paid the penalty of DEATH by dying in our place? You can't actually believe this if you believe in eternal hell fire. If you believe eternal hell fire is the punishment for sin and NOT Christ's death on the cross, that means Christ Himself is there burning for all eternity if THAT is the punishment for sin.

Curious how you 'ignore' your mistakes, e.g. 'carnal'....

Here's a Bible Dictionary definition--same thing. Sheesh.


Bible Dictionaries - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Life
Life [N] [E]
God (Yahweh) as the Source and Sustainer of Life. According to Genesis 2:7, "the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." This "breath of life" does not distinguish human beings from other animals, nor perhaps even plant life, as can be seen in Genesis 1:29-30. When God declared his judgment against Noah's generation, all creation in which there was the "breath of life" would suffer the destruction of the flood ( Gen 6:17 ; Genesis 7:15 Genesis 7:21-23 ). The breath of life distinguishes the living from the dead, not human beings from animals ( Eccl 3:18-19 ). Consistently throughout Scripture God is portrayed as the giver of life, which distinguishes living organisms from inanimate things ( Rom 4:17 ).

Life is contingent upon the continuing, sustaining "breath" of God. When God ceases to breathe, life is no more, "How many are your works, O Lord! In wisdom you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures When you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust" ( Psalms 104:24 Psalms 104:29 ). Death is frequently described as the cessation of this divine activity ( Gen 25:8 ; Mark 15:37 ). It is for this reason that the psalmist concludes, "Let everything that has breath praise the Lord" ( Psalm 150:6 ; cf. Rom 1:20-21 ).

So you believe in an Unjust God that makes some Believe to have Eternal Life, but those who refuse Him get the same Reward?

You're adding to the plain reading of scripture. We are not our bodies! We are our souls. When Paul says to be present with the Lord he is meaning his soul. His body will be resurrected and changed but not upon death. Naked and unclothed is referring to being without a body.

Clueless what you are saying here. Are you using Google translate? Obviously you're responding without actually reading what I wrote.

God would be unjust if you believe in 'eternal hell fire'--here we go again. So very many of you out their cling to this false teaching (which the Protestants got from their mother church the RCC, who got it from the pagans) of eternal fire that would torment and punish people for all eternity for a few years of sin on the earth. You make God out to be equal to Satan himself with this blasphemous lie--which is exactly what Satan wants.

I guess it was an evil spirit named Samuel.

I am gobsmacked that nearly all of you without exception respond without having read the other side's position. It is a pagan belief that ALL souls are immortal--not to mention it is blasphemy as it makes Christ's second coming pointless if everyone goes to their destination without going thru the Judgment--and that believers can enter heaven without their immortal bodies-- and it is to completely ignore the majority of what the bible actually states.

I don't believe in a Burning place called Hell.
But, I do believe in the Lake of Fire where Christ is Judge and we read where the dead who are told Christ does not know them is cast into the Lake of Fire.

And let's not forget about those who refuse God and take the Mark:

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Tormented forever and ever and their smoke [burning] can be seen forever.

And how on earth do the unbelievers get the same reward? Are you multitasking while your typing this?

Believers get ETERNAL LIFE
Unbelievers get DEATH and DESTRUCTION

How on God's green earth are those two things the same....sheesh and double sheesh.

When people present Scripture, you do not know what side they're debating until clarified.

Maybe you're new to the Christian faith--Revelation is a HIGHLY SYMBOLIC book--and we know that because of the fantastical images which some of them the angel explains--and it tells us that in the very first chapter. You can't take everything so literally, otherwise you miss the truth in its pages.

OK, I was Saved in the 1970's and seen everything preached under the sun.

Let's take the first 3 Chapters of Revelation concerning the Churches Paul set up.
Then, let's look at the Apostle John as Bishop over the Church of Ephesus and his Disciples as Leaders over the other Churches.
Christ explains the sins to John, and later John is overseeing these Churches to fix them.

If that is Real and confirmed by the Church Fathers, what makes you think the rest is an illusion, because you say so?

FreeGrace2 said:
When 21st Century minds realize that rather unknown fact, it puts a whole new light on the parable. Too many people error and see it as a story about losing and gaining back salvation. In fact, it is about a son breaking fellowship with Dad, finally coming to his senses (repenting), confessing his sin and returning to Dad (restoration of fellowship). It's nothing more than that.
That is quite the imagination.

The other son got out of fellowship when the prodigal came home.

Kinda like so many believers who think that salvation can be lost. When a wild idiot repents, confesses and gets back in fellowship, they just can't stand it and think he should go to hell.

like i said, you've only described life as originating from God, being the gift of God.

if i say i have given you a present, that doesn't tell me what the present is.

what is life?

the Bible says. do you not remember the things Christ said?

but then, you still haven't answered me whether you believe Him:



note that "has everlasting life" is present tense; a present & ongoing possession
note that "has passed from death into life" is past tense; a completed action.
note that "shall not come into judgement" is explicitly excluding a certain future.

do you believe what He says?
your little human dictionary isn't consistent with what He says here.
who do you believe?
God or man?

give me God's definition of life. not atheistic monist man's.

Unbelief and aggression against the Word of God is evidence of a void in your life that only Christ can fill.