Saved by Water

You just contradicted yourself.

First statement above:
"according to the word the Holy Ghost is not received in water baptism"

Contradictory second statement above:
" Water baptism is necessary, and so is receiving the Holy Ghost"

Your continued contradictions make your view very untenable.

If "both are required", then you are basically claiming that reception of the Holy Spirit IS by water baptism.

On the contrary, I'm seeing your contradictions very clearly.

Paul NEVER wrote in any epistle that water baptism was a requirement for salvation.

God makes the choice when to give a believer the Holy Ghost. Whereas, a believer makes the choice when they will obey God's command and get water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

I sincerely hope the following will help you to understand what I am talking about:

1. A believer can be given the Holy Ghost, and on the same day choose to get water baptized in the name of Jesus as seen in case of Cornelius.
2. A believer can get water baptized in the name of Jesus, and have to ask God to give them the Holy Ghost as Jesus said in Luke 11:13.
3. A believer can be given the Holy Ghost, and years later get water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
4. A believer can get water baptized in the name of Jesus, and days later be given the Holy Ghost as seen in the case of the Samaritans.
5. A believer can get water baptized in the name of Jesus, and on the same day be given the Holy Ghost as seen in the case of the Ephesus disciples.
6. A believer can get water baptized in the name of Jesus and years later be given the Holy Ghost.
7. Both are required to bring about one's spiritual rebirth. (John 3:3-5)

Paul's epistles were written to believers who had already submitted to water baptism, and had been given the Holy Ghost as well. The letters included detailed explanation of aspects of their rebirth experience. Of which one was water baptism.

Paul instructs the born again Corinthians concerning the relevance of their water baptism in the name of Jesus.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Cor 1:13

I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 1 Cor 1:14-16

Members of the church of Corinth that Paul water baptized:
And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized. Acts 18:5

The elder unto the wellbeloved Gaius, whom I love in the truth.
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
For I rejoiced greatly, when the brethren came and testified of the truth that is in thee, even as thou walkest in the truth. 3 John 1-3

I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted (devoted) themselves to the ministry of the saints,)1 Cor 16:15

Paul’s Epistles - Spirit and water baptism
(Rom 6:3-5, 1 Cor 1:15-16, 1 Cor 12:13, Gal 3:27, Col 2:12)

Rom 6:3-5 “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. FOR IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:” THIS IS WATER BAPTISM. HOLY GHOST BAPTISM IS DONE BY GOD, AND IS NOT DONE INTO JESUS CHRIST.

1 Cor 1:15-16 “Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.” ALL WATER BAPTISMS WERE ADMINISTERED USING A NAME. (JESUS)

1 Cor 12:13 “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; AND have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” BOTH WATER BAPTISM AND RECEIVING THE SPIRIT

Gal 3:2 “This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” RECEIVING THE SPIRIT IS PART OF THE GOSPEL MESSAGE.

Gal 3:27 “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” Same as stated in Romans 6.

Col 2:12 “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.” Same as stated in Romans 6.

that's... not actually a contradiction.

if i told you the Messiah must be born in the flesh, must die, must rise, must ascend and must come again a second time in judgement -- the necessity of each of those things does not imply that all those things must occur at the same time.

"makes"??? As in He might "change it up" from time to time? Really?

No. God MADE the choice when He gives the Holy Spirit to believers. And Gal 3:2 and 5 tells us exactly when that is.

Yet, this is irrelevant to when a believer receives the Spirit.

I do know what you are talking about. And I thoroughly disagree with your position.

1. irrelevant to when a believer receives the Spirit. It is when they believe. Gal 3:2,5
2. NO! By the definition of believer, they HAVE the Spirit. No one has to ask. And there is NO example of one asking for it in the NT.
3. No. By the VERY definition of a believer, they HAVE the Spirit. Not "can get".
4. Your default to the early and formative years of the church are irrelevant to the issue. Gal 3:2,5 tells us plainly.
5. Occurs EVERY TIME a person comes to faith in Christ. Water baptism is NOT a requirement.
6. Nonsense. Gal 3:2,5 is too clear to follow that false doctrine.

Your doctrine is all wet.

FreeGrace2 said:
Paul NEVER wrote in any epistle that water baptism was a requirement for salvation.
Paul was laying out theological doctrines for the church for all time. Your argument is false.

Look back up at my quote at the top of this post. You STILL haven't give any verse showing that Paul taught what you keep claiming.

You simply and totally misunderstand what Paul wrote.

What he made crystal clear, as an apostle whose marching orders were to "make disciples". Which means evangelism; get them saved.

And THEN, and only THEN, "baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit".

Yep. So typical of those who believe your doctrine.

You ignore v.17. Well, I don't. "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."

As the history's premier evangelist, he made it clear that his job was to "make disciples", which means to get people saved. And he was not even interested in baptizing people. He made a point about that by naming the ONLY ones he did baptize.

Members of the church of Corinth that Paul water baptized

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Nothing here supports your doctrine.

Paul’s Epistles - Spirit and water baptism

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Still nothing here that supports your doctrine. And you ignored v.17 again.

Nope. You need to really study the first 11 words in 1 Cor 12:13. You still don't seem to understand it. When we believe and receive the Spirit, THAT is being "baptized into one body". Paul was NOT talking about water.

You still are misunderstanding. Paul was clearly teaching that receiving the Spirit is by believing.

This is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. A dry baptism. NOT water.

Figure of speech (buried with Him in baptism) to describe the baptism of the Spirit.

Actually, it is.

Here is what the poster said:

First statement above:
"according to the word the Holy Ghost is not received in water baptism"

Contradictory second statement above:
" Water baptism is necessary, and so is receiving the Holy Ghost"

First statement denies the Spirit is received in water baptism.

The second statement says water baptism is necessary for receiving the Spirit.

the second statement does not say H2O immersion is prequisite for receiving the Spirit.
it doesn't comment on what order anything has to take place; it's just saying both are necessary - you need to eat, and you need to drink. you don't have to do one before the other. you don't have to do both at the same time.

with H2O baptism and receiving the Spirit it's the same: they may be concurrent, or one may come before the other - even with a great space of time between, as Wansvic explained. i agree with all of the things he put in post #2,602 except... i don't think John 3 is necessarily talking about water baptism.

i do not believe in baptismal regeneration, i.e. i do not believe that our sins are forgiven at baptism. in that respect Wansvic & i disagree - i also believe that we are saved independent of water baptism; if a man was saved in the desert or on the moon or as an invalid with no one to dip him in water, i do not believe his belief or repentance is negated by failing to be baptized. a man saved without anyone to baptize him or without any access to water in which to be baptized, that man is still saved. by grace through faith, apart from works.

i also believe baptism is commanded of us and that it is 'the answer of a good conscience toward God' which conscience we have through repentance and belief. i would never recommend anyone not be baptized; i would urge anyone who believes to be baptized. knowing you must be baptized, being able to be baptized, and still refusing to be baptized is wickedness. it's disobedience. but it's not baptism in H2O by human hands that saves, cleanses us from sin, or seals us in His body.

you could say i'm more or less anabaptist in my thinking.

((just so you know where i am on the issue))

so even tho i may not be totally in agreement with @Wansvic's thinking on the matter of baptism, i don't think he's contradicting himself - not like you are saying he is.
and i am more in agreement with him now that i see he accepts the proof of Acts 11, that the Spirit doesn't have to be given with the act of water baptism. that's a point that many people won't conceded, so i very much love him because he does

The sentence was written vaguely enough to suggest that.

it doesn't comment on what order anything has to take place;

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it's just saying both are necessary - you need to eat, and you need to drink. you don't have to do one before the other. you don't have to do both at the same time.

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I think you are still missing the point. The issue is whether water baptism is necessary or required for receiving the Spirit. The poster made 2 contradictory statements in the same post.

with H2O baptism and receiving the Spirit it's the same: they may be concurrent, or one may come before the other - even with a great space of time between, as Wansvic explained.

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His explanations are not biblically supported. As I've explained.

i do not believe in baptismal regeneration, i.e. i do not believe that our sins are forgiven at baptism. in that respect Wansvic & i disagree - i also believe that we are saved independent of water baptism; if a man was saved in the desert or on the moon or as an invalid with no one to dip him in water, i do not believe his belief or repentance is negated by failing to be baptized. a man saved without anyone to baptize him or without any access to water in which to be baptized, that man is still saved. by grace through faith, apart from works.

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Sounds as if you don't agree with most anything he posts.

i also believe baptism is commanded of us and that it is 'the answer of a good conscience toward God' which conscience we have through repentance and belief.

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I don't think anyone has argued against this.

you could say i'm more or less anabaptist in my thinking.

((just so you know where i am on the issue))

I am surprised at your rejection of all the points made that are actually confirmed in the Word. However, I wanted to specifically address your comment in #2. You state no one is required to ask for the Holy Ghost when in fact Jesus said: "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Jesus' statement proves that there are times a person must pursue receiving the Holy Ghost. Therefore, a person's belief that they automatically receive the Holy Ghost the instant they believe in Jesus is a deception. This deception has the ability to bar a person from entering the kingdom of God. (Rom. 8:9)

Something we must all come to understand is that each of us has believed things that are not biblically sound at some point. But those who are willing can have those deceptive beliefs shattered and replaced with God's truth. And, because we are fallible human beings the cleansing from deception is an ongoing process. Since God is the only one that knows it all, the best thing we can do is look to Him for guidance. And when His Word states we are to do something it is our responsibility to believe what He says and obey Him, particularly in the case of the requirements associated with the rebirth experience. Jesus makes a crucial point relative to obedience in Matthew chapter 7:21-27.

That's the problem. There weren't any verses that confirmed your points. In fact, out of your 7 points, there were only 2 verses given. And you simply misunderstood both of them.

So much for your "confirmation" by the Word.

It seems you are unaware that in the OT (when Jesus walked this earth) the Holy Spirit wasn't given to everyone. Only a few had the Spirit, and for special jobs, like kings, prophets, etc.

I though you would appeal to king David when he asked the Lord to "not take your Holy Spirit from me". However, in the OT, God could and did remove the Spirit from some.

Wow. You really do not know the Scriptures, to say such a thing. Jesus promised after He left (crucifixion and ascension) that believers would receive the Holy Spirit who would be with them FOREVER.

John 14-
15 “If you love me, keep my commands.
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

John 16-
7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:
9 about sin, because people do not believe in me;
10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

Sure. Satan deceives so people will not believe the gospel.

But know this: those who are so unfamiliar with Scripture, as you are demonstrating, are very easily deceived.

One MUST KNOW the truth to recognize error.

Again, that's why we MUST KNOW the truth to recognize error.

I do not see any evidence that you are so willing. In fact, it seems you are very stubborn in your beliefs, even though the Truth has been presented to you.

John 14-
15 “If you love me, keep my commands.
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

And I explained WHEN Jesus said that. During the OT times, not the NT time, when EVERY believer received the Spirit on the basis of faith.

The Holy Spirit had NOT YET been given to every believer. Not even the disciples. They HAD to ask for Him. But they failed to do that, so Jesus had to breathe on them the Spirit.

John 20:22 - And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Notice that this occurred AFTER Jesus was resurrected. His disciples never took Him up on the offer of asking for the Spirit.

Luke 11:13 - If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

I trust that you have noticed that the verses I quote actually say what I believe.

Those who have the righteousness which is of God by faith (Philippians 3:9), their righteousness is "fine linen, clean and white" (Revelation 19:8);

And I also would assure you that their righteousness is not impractical (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

When Jesus comes into your heart, He cleans the inside of the cup and platter (Matthew 23:25-28).

I will agree with you that those who attempt to offer to God the righteousness of the law (Philippians 3:9) that their righteousness is indeed as filthy rags. Of course for those who offer filthy rags, there is actual sin (the breaking of God's commandments, 1 John 3:4) that will be accomplished on the side. For that is inevitable if the heart has not been changed.

However, as a side not, I say to you that the doctrine of the inevitability of sin, for the one who has believed in Christ, is unequivocally a false doctrine and heresy (see Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

You have not shown me that. I have shown that my stuff is from the Bible by giving chapter and verse on many occasions.

No; you have been refuted.

That argument has been dealt with.

One of the main reasons why I abide by the kjv is that I do not want to be cheated out of something that the Holy Spirit might want to say to me.

And also, the punishment is much less severe fore adding to the word than for taking away from it (Revelation 22:18-19). And I'm afraid that those who abide by versions that take away from the word are taking away from the word and are calling that judgment upon themselves.

btw, thank you for giving me permission to believe what I believe about the kjv of the Bible. Of course I really needed that in order to continue to believe what I believe.

not.

I'm reading Romans 6:22 in the kjv...

and it says "fruit unto holiness"...nothing about growing up in the faith there.

Holiness is a state of being that has to do with being set free from sin as the verse plainly tells us.

I have mentioned before that Galatians 2:11 in the ESV leads to an abject difference in doctrine from what we find in the kjv which speaks to us plainly of eternal security throughout its pages.