How do pre-tribbers explain the "saints" in Colossians 1?

The word "saints" is used in Colossians 1 four times. How do pre-tribbers square this with their belief that the church is gone in Revelation 4? Let me explain.

Revelation uses the word "saints" for those still on the earth after the supposed rapture in Revelation 4. Pre-tribbers say these are "tribulation saints," or those who get saved after the rapture.

But what about Colossians 1? Is Paul writing to the church or to future tribulation saints? The Greek words used in Colossians and Revelation are basically the same: hagios, hagion, hagious. They mean essentially the same thing, the different spellings represent different tenses. I think simple common sense should tell us the saints in Colossians are the church and the saints in Revelation are as well.

I'm trying to understand the point you are making? So the word "saints" is used four times at Colossians 1 and your connecting it to Revelation 4 so here's my question? How did you determine the saints are still on earth in Revelation 4 when at verse 10 it says, "the elders "WILL" fall down before Him who sits on the throne. Is your pont that the elders who fall down is yet future based on the word, "Will?" Just asking!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

So what exactly does Colossians 1 say?
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;
8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Christians are indeed saints (as noted above). The Church consists of saints. But the Tribulation saints come AFTER the Rapture, and are primarily Jewish saints as shown in Daniel 7: 21 and repeated in Revelation 13. The book of Daniel is strictly about the Jews and Jerusalem (nothing about the Church), as related to the beasts and the Little Horn (another title for the Antichrist). And John repeats what Daniel said.

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them (Dan 7:21) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Rev 13:7).

If the tribulation happens after the so-called rapture according to Revelation 13:7 then how do you explain Revelation 20:4-10, specifically vs 5? "Then the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the FIRST resurrection." Also notice Hebrews 9:28, "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation/deliverance without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." In short, there is only one second coming and it ain't the rapture of the Church and then another coming.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

It may be that those who are left behind when the rapture occurs will consider that the doctrine of post-trib was always the reality in the case that there will be a secret rapture; for they will be unaware of the church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

If they are of the church, they may be pleasantly surprised when they themselves are caught up to meet the Lord in the air and do not have to go through the GT.

But for those who are left behind, believing in a post-tribulation rapture will be just fine in the case that the rapture will be secret.

Of course, I do not believe that the rapture is going to be secret. For when it occurs, the trumpet of God will sound and there will be the voice of the archangel giving a shout.

The saints of the NT are strictly Christians from any ethnic background. There is also no scripture that says anyone accepts Christ during the Great Tribulation. The 144k are sealed before the Great Tribulation so they enter it as Christians, same for the two witnesses part of which are two churches, likely being the two churches praised in the early part of Revelation.

Please give me the Scripture where the Church became the 'elders'. Or is that conjecture on your part being put forth as truth?

1. The Rapture is not mentioned in Revelation 13:7. Since the Antichrist makes war with the saints and overcomes them, it is implied that the Tribulation saints are all killed by the Antichrist.

2. Revelation 20:5 says this: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
This verse can be a little confusing since the "first resurrection" mentioned here actually applies to the ones who "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (previous verse), after they were beheaded and then resurrected prior to the Millennium. And in fact this is Phase III of the First Resurrection (we won't get into the first two phases). These are the Tribulation saints.

3. So who are the "rest of the dead"? They are in fact the unsaved dead (see Revelation 19) who will be resurrected at the "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29; Rev 20:12).
Actually that verse in Heb 9:28 CONFIRMS the Rapture! I will quote from the KJV: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1. So who looks for Christ? The saints.
2. What is "without sin" or "without reference to sin"? That would have been regarding the first coming as the Lamb of God.
3. What is "unto salvation"? When we understand that salvation is in three phases (1) justification, (2) sanctification and (3) glorification, then "unto salvation" is the last phase, which is glorification.
4. Are all the saints at the Resurrection/Rapture glorified? Absolutely. That is exactly what Philippians 3:20,21 says: For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

So in fact Heb 9:28 complements Philippians 3:20,21. This is definitely NOT about the Second Coming of Christ to execute judgment! And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)

Dead in Christ are raised here: (Resurrection of the dead )
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying,

“We give thanks to thee, Lord God Almighty, who art and who wast,
that thou hast taken thy great power and begun to reign.
18 The nations raged, but thy wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged,
for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints,

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Christians who are alive in the flesh are resurrected here (rapture)
14 Then I looked, and lo, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat upon the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 So he who sat upon the cloud swung his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

After Rev 14:14 there are no righteous left on the earth, they enter the bowl judgements and the few who are left enter sheep/goat judgement when the Lord returns at end of the Tribulation. There is no resurrection of any kind when Lord returns at end of the tribulation.

The unrighteous enter the bowl judgements.
17 And another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has power over fire, and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle on the earth and gathered the vintage of the earth, and threw it into the great wine press of the wrath of God; 20 and the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the wine press, as high as a horse’s bridle, for one thousand six hundred stadia

How do pre-tribbers explain the "saints" in Colossians 1?


Saints are simply people who come to Christ for Salvation. We often call them "Christians".

The resurrection of the dead in Christ happens when the Lord returns after the end of the tribulation.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

We are being introduced to a new subject here and that subject is
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

THOSE WHO HAVE DIED/GONE TO SLEEP. BUT we are not to be sad like those who don't know the Lord and Savior

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,

DO WE BELIEVE Jesus died and ROSE again? YES WE DO. AND BECAUSE WE DO BELIEVE THAT JESUS DIED AND ROSE AGAIN WE ALSO BELIEVE THAT

even so them also which sleep

DIED AND ROSE. And how are we positive this is TRUTH? Indisputable TRUTH? BECAUSE

in Jesus will God bring with him.

THEY ARE COMING BACK WITH HIM (WE WILL BE GATHERED TOGETHER WITH THEM JUST KEEP READING, YOU'LL SEE)

1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you BY THE WORD OF THE LORD, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord

GOD SAYS 'THE CHURCH' AKA THOSE ALIVE AND REMAINING
when Christ returns (and remember He is returning with the brethren who have died. So the part of the church that died and went to heaven are coming back to REUNITE with the 'church' that is alive and remaining)

shall not prevent them which are asleep.

no more last day, the last day took place when the graves opened and the Lord led the captivity captive and the bonds of death were loosed and Christ went to prepare a place so we could be where He is which is as the right hand of God in heaven and we now pass through death unto life, because He is the life and the resurrection and no man COMES TO THE FATHER except by Him and even though Martha knew about the last day Jesus instead of confirming what she thought told here HE was LIFE


SO when does this take place and when does the 'gathering of the church' happen?

1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

AND THE CHURCH WILL BE MADE ONE.

1Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

WHY is the Lord descending and gathering the church together? Because

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;
10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Roger that.

All those of God are Saints, sometimes IN GENERAL, the Jews are called Saints or holy peoples, we see John differentiates them on purpose in Revelation chapter 17.

Revelation 17:6 And 2532 I saw 1492 z5627 the x3588 woman 1135 drunken 3184 z5723 with 1537 the x3588 blood 129 of the x3588 Saints, 40 and 2532 with 1537 the x3588 blood 129 of the x3588 Martyrs 3144 of Iesus: 2424 and 2532 when I saw 1492 z5631 her, 846 I wondred 2296 z5656 with great 3173 admiration. 2295

#0040 ἅγιος hagios {hag'-ee-os}

from hagos (an awful thing) [cf G0053, G2282]; TDNT - 1:88,14; adj
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) most holy thing, a saint
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From ἅγος [[hagos]] (an awful thing) compare G0053, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated):—(most) holy (one, thing), saint.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

Rev. 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

John here is calling the Jews the Saints and those Gentiles in Christ the Martyrs of Jesus.

Paul may indeed be doing the same thing in Col. ch. 1.

Col. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints


12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:


26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Now, I believe it is simply al those who are Sanctified unto God are Saints, both Jews and Gentiles AND on both sides of the Pre Trib Rapture. BUT....I also believe that 2000 years ago the Jews, Paul, Peter etc. etc. all saw themselves as the Saints of God IN GENERAL, and that now the Gentiles were becoming PARTAKERS with them, and that was a MYSTERY God revealed to the Saints (Jews like Paul/Peter etc.) which heretofore (at that time) had been hidden, but now was made manifest unto Paul and his fellow Jewish Saints. Its like calling a Dr. Pepper a cola in the generic term. Whereas I today see all men of God as Saints, the evidence shows they called the Jews The Saints and that John did the exact same thing in Rev. 17:6, he said the Harlot (ALL False Religion of All Time) had the blood of the Saints AND the blood of the Martyrs of Jesus on her hands, so he likewise differentiated the two. So, in Rev. 13, I think he is speaking about the Anti-Christ chasing the Jewish Saints who repent into the Wilderness AND killing the 2/3 of the Jewish "Saints" who never repent also, even though they don't repent, he will still have their blood on his hands so to speak. If In went through life and never came to Jesus, and someone murdered me, they are still guilty of murder. But overall, I think these are Gentile Saints who are being spoken of, because John does cite from all nations, thus they are Saints who come to Jesus after the Rapture.

The definition for Saints is basically someone who consecrates themselves unto God, so it doesn't matter, IMHO, if you are Jew or Gentile, or whether you do it pre trib or during the 70th week troubles, you are still a consecrated Saint of God.

The only reason I point out the above is to show how the Jewish people thought of themselves, in General as a Separated, Sanctified, Called out Nation unto God thus they were all Saints of God in they way they thought. We can see this in Daniel ch. 12 where they are called holy peoples via an end time prophesy, but we know only 1/3 of these end time Jews repent.

So, Jesus himself (Man in Linen) calls the end time Israel Holy Peoples !! SEE BELOW:

Dan. 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

So, in general, the Jews are the holy peoples and Saints because God SEPARATED Israel unto Himself, but Saints by now, IMHO, mean all men who separate themselves unto God, BUT...those men who wrote it saw Israel IN GENERAL, as The Saints, this can be proved by their writings.

The Rapture is PRE TRIB.

THANK YOU. I love stuff like this. Never saw it before you pointed it out THANK YOU AGAIN.

The word saints is used for OT saints, Body of Christ, those who turn to God in the trib, and on into the millennium. They are all God`s people but all do not have the same inheritance. It is according to God`s purposes through Christ.

The woman is responsible for the blood of Christian saints, not Jewish saints which is not a thing in the new Covenant. Only Christians, be it Jewish or gentiles. The saints are Christians.

There is but one nation of our Father. Jesus came to save the nations and unite them with His Original Flock. If you understand the word, Judah, you understand that all believe fit this description, and this also gives bright light to the warning of Revelation, :Beware of those who say they are Jews but are not. Rather, they are a synagogue of Satan."
Understanding that warning with the knowledge of what a Jew is tells us these folks are in all assemblies, all.