How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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TheDivineWatermark

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ewq1938 said:
It's not the same word. It's not used in bible and it doesn't mean a physical departure.

In red is part of Winers you ALWAYS leave out:
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[and this, of Winer's (p.24) that you always leave out;) ]

quoting old post (Post #3318) -


^ EDIT to add: Here's what I put in a Post #32 of a different thread back in September (from "Winer's Grammar"):

Post #32 - https://christianchat.com/threads/the-falling-away-is-this-the-rapture.201579/post-4660657


[quoting]

"A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament: Regarded as a Sure Basis" by George Benedikt Winer (pgs 24-25):

"d) Many words which had long been in use received a new form or pronunciation by which the older was in most cases superceded: as [...] apostasia (apostasis, Lob. p. 528), [...]"



[found on pgs 24-25 (of Winer's)]

-- https://books.google.com/books?id=i7kC8UOe-4cC&pg=PA24&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=true


[end quoting from source; underline mine; note for readers: the "[...]" is a "snip" of the LONG LIST OF WORDS]



____________

The word we are discussing is in his long LIST of words which fall under the category he is describing in that quote, above ^ .




[end quoting Post #3318 (pg 166) - https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4707866 ]



____________


That's exactly what he's saying.

That it is the same word, just like Liddell and Scott's says (of it), "LATER FORM FOR apostasis".
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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Charlie24 said:
Dear Laura! In David's post #4185, this is not the Church saints as David suggests!
Click to expand...

David is correct. The saints in Revelation 13 are members of church.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Christ is describing the church being persecuted in the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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TheDivineWatermark said:
[and this, of Winer's (p.24) that you always leave out;) ]
Click to expand...

I post the full definition of Apostasia, you don't. Winers says Apostasia means Apostasy. You ignore that. Pre-tribbers ALWAYS ignore what the Greek resources say. You are posting a definition from a different word. I don't have to post that because it's not the definition of Apostasia.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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[EDIT to add to my last post] ^ CONTEXT determines "what kind" of "departure"

(i.e. it doesn't ALWAYS mean "a departure FROM MOSES" as Acts 21:21 speaks of in particular)
 
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Charlie24

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ewq1938 said:
David is correct. The saints in Revelation 13 are members of church.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Christ is describing the church being persecuted in the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Click to expand...
In Matthew 24 and 25, Jesus is only speaking to Israel! He is telling them what will befall Israel.

That is not connected to the saints we are discussing!
 
Laura798

Laura798

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oyster67 said:
We generally don't call the Pre-Trib Rapture His Second Coming, though it be true that we do meet Him in clouds. We have the precious promise that we shall not be here to endure the time of Jacob's Troubles.
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oyster67 said:
We generally don't call the Pre-Trib Rapture His Second Coming, though it be true that we do meet Him in clouds. We have the precious promise that we shall not be here to endure the time of Jacob's Troubles.
Click to expand...
Jesus came once to die and then the judgement It is called the Second Coming for a reason. Or to put it more simply 1+1 = 2
Touching not touching the ground doesn't change the count--he is only coming one more time!

Ay ya yai...

 
oyster67

oyster67

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1 Thess 4 + Rev 19 = Pre Trib Rapitty Tap Tap Tap........... EZPZ
 
Laura798

Laura798

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Charlie24 said:
So it's only YOUR scholarly experts that YOU agree with who we should believe!

It looks as though you have left us no choice but to conform to your ways and beliefs.
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I wouldn't call believing truth as conforming--we have confirmed it now just believe it!:)
 
I

iTheophilus

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Charlie24 said:
Show me in scripture who they are? Show me they are believers from the Church?

If you can't do that, then I suggest you take a step back and reevaluate.
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Hey there, Charlie.

In the verse below, some of the Elect/Saints have arrived at their destination. When this time comes, however, it will be the Holy Spirit speaking through the mouths of God’s Elect, not the Elect themselves.

"And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations. "But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.

- Mark 13:10-11 (NKJV)
 
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Charlie24

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ewq1938 said:
False. He is saying what will happen to his Christian followers during the Great Tribulation.
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He is answering the Jewish disciples who just asked Him, "what shall be the sign of your coming,."

Jesus is zeroing in on His return as related to the Jews. All the parables of Matt. 24 are directed to Israel.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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Charlie24 said:
He is answering the Jewish disciples who just asked Him, "what shall be the sign of your coming,."

Jesus is zeroing in on His return as related to the Jews. All the parables of Matt. 24 are directed to Israel.
Click to expand...
Pretty much AGREE! (y) Yep!






[the "ye / you" of the Olivet Discourse is a "proleptic 'you'" speaking to/for/about those to whom "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" was promised (see Acts 3:21's wording also, in this regard)]
 
Laura798

Laura798

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Charlie24 said:
In Matthew 24 and 25, Jesus is only speaking to Israel! He is telling them what will befall Israel.

That is not connected to the saints we are discussing!
Click to expand...
That is incorrect--who is his audience? The apostles. Who were the letters written for? The believers...."For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.."
 
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Charlie24

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iTheophilus said:
Hey there, Charlie.

In the verse below, some of the Elect/Saints have arrived at their destination. When this time comes, however, it will be the Holy Spirit speaking through the mouths of God’s Elect, not the Elect themselves.

"And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations. "But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.

- Mark 13:10-11 (NKJV)
Click to expand...
This scripture is the same as Matt. 24, it is given to the Jews.

During the tribulation many Jews will believe and they will be betrayed and put to death.

There will be total craziness in Israel over some of the Jews accepting Christ.

This is prophesy for Israel, but indirectly reflects the rest of the world, of course.
 
Laura798

Laura798

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This is what happens at Christ's Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation--no argument there. And immediately following Christ's return is the judgment and then the destruction of the heavens and the earth. Then right after that we get a new heaven and new earth where only righteousness dwells.
 
oyster67

oyster67

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Laura798 said:
Jesus came once to die and then the judgement It is called the Second Coming for a reason. Or to put it more simply 1+1 = 2
Click to expand...
You are confusing the Trib with the GWTJ.
Laura798 said:
Touching not touching the ground doesn't change the count--he is only coming one more time!
Click to expand...
Two touches: 1st Coming and 2nd Coming.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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Charlie24 said:
This scripture is the same as Matt. 24, it is given to the Jews.
During the tribulation many Jews will believe and they will be betrayed and put to death.
There will be total craziness in Israel over some of the Jews accepting Christ.
This is prophesy for Israel, but indirectly reflects the rest of the world, of course.
Click to expand...
Well said.

Agreed.

And it is THEY who will be the ones DOING the "INVITING" (of the "guests [plural]"--the Gentiles) DURING the Trib years (Matt24:14, 26:13, for example)... at great risk and cost to themselves (who are also identified in Matt25:40,45 as "the least of these My brethren" who are not the ones BEING judged / separated in that Matt25:31-46 context [the "Sheep" and "goats" of the nations [plural] / Gentiles]); They do this "INVITING" following "our Rapture"... when they will have come to faith in Christ [many of them will] IN/DURING/WITHIN the 7 Trib yrs
 
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Charlie24

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Laura798 said:
That is incorrect--who is his audience? The apostles. Who were the letters written for? The believers...."For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.."
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If you remember, Laura, Jesus came and offered salvation only to the Jews. of Course He never turned down a Gentile for salvation.

Everything He taught was in the Law, the Law that only the Jews had!

His messages and teachings were directly addressed to the Jews, and indirectly to the rest of the world.

This is theology 101.
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

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TheDivineWatermark said:
Pretty much AGREE! (y) Yep!
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Are there any Scriptures prior to Matthew 24:3 that say those disciples understood Jesus would die and raise from the grave and return in an second coming, or does it state that "they understood not"? When Jesus did die are there Scriptures that support those disciples awaiting his resurrection or Scriptures supporting that they were caught off guard by it and just thought he had died the same as everyone else dies?
 
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