Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

FreeGrace2 said:
What I do know is that neither you nor any other pretribber has a verse that unambiguously states that Jesus takes resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. And that is a fact.
After nearly 1,400 posts, NO ONE has quoted any verse showing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

Really? These verses?? Paul notes that Jesus is NOW IN HEAVEN. Then he notes that at the resurrection our physical bodies will be changed into imperishable bodies, just like His.

So, again I say, NO ONE has cited or posted ANY verse that has Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

What they do is what you just did. Quote a verse that DOES NOT SAY anything about being taken to heaven after receiving a resurrection body.

No. Just read 1 Thess 4. At the resurrection, we will be "forever with the Lord". Says NOTHING about going to heaven.

Since you failed to provide a clear unambiguous verse showing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven, I suggest that YOU owe a retraction and apology.

Are you aware that there is ONLY ONE resurrection of the saved and ONE of the unsaved? Try placing that single resurrection BEFORE the Trib, even though there will be converts, proven by the Tribulation martyrs that will be resurrected when Jesus returns. Rev 20:5.

Oh, and btw, that resurrection is described as the FIRST resurrection.

Now, go and figure that out.

If you insist I use "tense" with an Aorist verb, then I will say it is tenseless.
You are simply not reading the 2 Thes 2 passage correctly.

Here is how the first several people translated verse 3 in English before people got preconceived ideas from the KJV:


1384 Wycliffe N.T.
That no man deceyue you in any maner / for no but departynge aweye (or dissencon) schal come firste & the man of synne schall be schewid [shewed] the sone of perdicioune.

1534 Tyndale N.T.
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1535 Coverdale Bible
Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion.

1539 Cranmer Great Bible
Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion.

1549 Matthew's Bible
Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon

1565 Beza Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition.

1575 Geneva Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition.

OF COURSE the departing must come first, because it is the church departing and it is the Holy Spirit working through the church that restrains and holds back the man of sin, so he will not be revealed before the proper time. Certainly GOD has the power to restrain the man of sin and prevent him from being revealed before the proper time. This satisfies Paul's theme for the passage as about His coming and the gathering.

Paul's argument is simple: when someone sees the departing of the church, then sees the man of sin revealed, they will then know the Day of the Lord has started and they are now IN IT. What is not so simple is why Paul wrote: "and now you know what is restraining..."
And why Paul didn't just tell them "no, you are not in the Day of the Lord and you have not missed the rapture."
And why Paul showed the man of sin already revealed (verse 3b) before he explained in verses 6-8 how the restrainer gets taken out of the way first, so that he COULD BE revealed.

I would reword that: there is only one TITLE for the resurrections of the righteous: Jesus was the first and his resurrection was called the firstfruits. That very name proves a secondfruit, thirdfruit, etc. And the second wave of this primary or chief resurrection (the resurrection of the redeemed) will be the church, just before wrath or just before the Day of His wrath (6th seal). The third wave will be the Old Testament saints who will be resurrected on the last day - at the 7th seal. Included with them will be the Two Witnesses and those beheaded during the 70th week.

You demand a clear verse. Can you provide such a verse proving Paul's rapture is posttrib? We will be waiting.

Did you not notice that John saw the raptured church in heaven (Rev. 7) BEFORE he saw God begin the 70th week with the 7th seal. That is why the rapture is PRE-trib. (Rapture just before the 6th seal, the "trib" starting at the 7th.)

All of those "departings" are Apostasy. The departing is to depart from truth into deception. Teaching that "departing" is a rapture is clearly how the Apostasy happens.

None of that is correct. John saw no rapture there. He saw all overcomers in eternity and since Revelation is mostly non-chronological, him seeing them in that chp is not proof of that vision happening before the 70th week. You have it all completely wrong.

How can a verb TENSE be "tenseless". That is absurd.

Says you. Prove it by unpacking the passage and explain exactly what Paul was referring to by "when he comes" and "our being gathered to Him".

If you think "when He comes" refers to some pretrib activity, the next 2 verses refute that clearly.

I eagerly await your explanation.

Here is how the first several people translated verse 3 in English before people got preconceived ideas from the KJV:

Thanks a lot. What a waste. Can barely understand ye olde english. Nearly worthless.

How about this:

English Standard Version
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Berean Study Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

New International Version
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

King James Bible
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

New American Standard Bible
No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Christian Standard Bible
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

American Standard Version
let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

The Greek word translated "apostasy" or "rebellion" or "departure" is:

apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

What is crystal clear is that the words IN NO WAY refers to a rapture. How can a "departure" that "implies a desertion" refer to a rapture? Of course it can't.

I have just proven from the Greek that "departure" is a LOUSY translation, and basically means a desertion.

Actually v1-3 say that the Second Coming and gathering (rapture) WON'T OCCUR UNTIL the rebellion/apostacy (tribulation) and the man of sin is revealed.

I hope you are able to repent of your error. The word CANNOT mean "departure of the church", ie, rapture.

However, even if it did, it refutes the idea of a pretrib rapture.

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Here's a color coded explanation, for ease of following:

The red words all refer to the same thing; The Second Advent, which begins the "Day of the Lord", a time period that extends from the DAY Christ comes back to earth through at least the Millennial reign.

v.3 is clear: "that Day" WILL NOT COME UNTIL the rebellion/apostacy/desertion occurs AND the A/C is revealed.

So, consider this: The Second Advent WILL NOT COME until the A/C is revealed. Along with the rapture.

So, the rebellion and revealing of the A/C MUST occur BEFORE the Second Advent AND rapture.

Either way, you are refuted.

When I refer to the resurrection of the saved, I am specifically speaking about humans. Jesus is both God and man. So His resurrection is noted separately. Of course it should be. His resurrertion is at least 2,000 before any other believer is given a resurrection body.

However, if you want "titles", just go to Rev 20:5 and see that the resurrertion of Trib martyrs is described as the FIRST resurrection.

Wow. What speculation, what presumption. Show me anywhere the Bible makes such a claim.

Here are the verses that PROVE that there is just ONE resurrection of the saved. They are resurrected all at the same time. So you can forget your waves/stages/series of resurrections.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Note the bolded words. All of them show clearly that there is A resurrection of the saved. Esp 1 Cor 15:23.

iow, when Jesus comes back, "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected. All of them.

This is sheer foolishness. Keep reading the 3 verses above until they actually sink in.

Why do you presume that these witnesses will receive their resurrection bodies when God puts their souls back in them? The text certainly DOESN'T say any such thing.

You bet I do.

And, why not? What's so bad about a clear and unambigous verse? Oh, right. You don't have any.

I've already done it. 2 Thess 2:1-3 proves it clearly.

And don't forget the very words of Jesus and Paul in the 3 verses above that PROVE that there is but ONE resurrection of the saved.

And 1 Cor 15:23 shows that ALL believers receive their resurrection bodies "when He comes".

It couldn't be any more clear. EVERY believer from Adam on will receive their resurrection body (imperishable) when Jesus comes.

If that occurs before the Trib, then NO Trib martyr will receive a resurrection body and the Bible is contradicted.

Your theory about waves of resurrections is just bogus. The Bible clearly and unambiguously SAYS there is ONE resurrection for the saved and ONE for the unsaved.

Your challenge is to believe what the Bible SAYS.

You have NO verses that SAY what you claim.

How do you PROVE those in heaven were raptured?

Not so fast. I need to see your proof that what John saw was raptured believers.

Because I don't believe you. You have already contradicted yourself and you hold to unbiblical ideas, such as waves of resurrections.

I do understand why you must hold to such a notion. It's the only way to explain a pretrib rapture.

However, since there is ONLY ONE resurrection, which will occur "when He comes", and Rev 20:5 describes the trib martyrs as the FIRST resurrrection, you have no ground to stand on.

Very well said!!

Since John tells us there are only TWO, then Jesus' resurrection has to be included in one or the earth. And since His was the firstfruits: in fact, Paul ties Jesus' resurrection to ours:

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Therefore Christ's resurrection must be either the "First" resurrection or the 'second death" resurrection. CLEARLY He does not fit the second one, so there is only one left: Jesus was the firstfruits of John's "first" resurrection. Again I point to the very word, "first" in firstfruits. It begs for a second and third. In the Old, firstfruits was an offering of the first ripe fruit or grain of a harvest - so of course there would be others to follow. Therefore the resurrection of the church saints will be the second, third, fourth, etc.

the resurrertion of Trib martyrs is described as the FIRST resurrection.
Certainly those beheaded martyrs would be a PART of the first resurrection. But did you notice others? I will highlight them for you.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In other words, "they reigned" includes those seated on thrones as well as the beheaded.

It is not speculation, or presumption: it is the meaning of the English word. When a field of barley was getting ripe, the Jews were instruction to find the first few heads of grain that ripened first and offer them to God as "firstfruits." You seem to imagine then that that would finish the harvest! No, it was but a very tiny portion of the harvest.

After the entire field was ripe, then they harvested the entire field.

Please, don't allow preconceptions to keep you from seeing truth.

Luke 14:14 This is a statement of fact; no more and no less. And since it is the word of God, it is a TRUE fact. But what is the intent of the speaker? Will your reward be given the instant your are caught up into the air? I don't think that is the intent here. The meaning is, the saints will get their reward during the millennial reign. Of course there is a more obvious meaning: any righteous that has died will certainly be resurrected. WHO is this verse pointing to? Since it is still Old Testament, it is pointed to the Jews. Remember Mary and Martha? They certainly believed that at some point in time there would be a resurrection day for the righteous.

To use this verse to prove there can only be ONE resurrection for the righteous is very poor exegesis. It was not written to answer that question. A better place to answer this question is to look at various resurrections and see what is written about them. For example, for the Gentile church of today, we look to Paul for He is the one that received the revelation about the rapture. He tells us that his rapture will come before wrath, and probably JUST before wrath. Does that agree with the timing of the resurrection of the beheaded? No, it cannot possibly be at the same time. Before wrath would be before any of the martys of the trib would be martyred.

You cannot use Acts 14:15 to answer this question either: It only states there will be a resurrection of the righteous and of the wicked - exactly what Rev. 20 shows us.

When are the two witnesses resurrected? Do you know?

John tells us that they suddenly show up and begin their testimony just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint. They testify for 1260 days which will take them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ENDS the week. But after they are killed, they lay dead those 3 1/2 days. That means their resurrection will be at the end of the week or at the 7th vial. How amazing; that is also when the OLD testament saints arise. After all, Jesus told them several times He would raise them up "on the last day." The 7th vial will be poured out to END the week, so that would certainly be "on the last day."

Did you ever read Matthew 27 where it is written: the earth did quake...and the graves were opened"

This shows us that when God raises the dead, pulling the dust that once made up those bodies together, it will cause an earthquake. This was probably the elders of the Old Testament here that Jesus raised. If so, Adam would certainly have been one of them. The flood came after he was buried, so it is fair to say that the "dust" that once made up his body would be scattered far and wide. It makes good sense then that when God pulled that dust together, it caused this great earthquake.

Did you notice there was an earthquake mentioned when the Two Witnesses rise up? That makes two witnesses.

Without a doubt, when God raises the rest of the OT saints, it is going to cause the world's worst earthquake. This will also include all the righteous from before the flood. Parts of their bodies could have been scattered around the world. How amazing, at the last day, at the 7th vial, we find the world's worst earthquake. That pinpoints the time God will raise the OT saints, along with the Two witnesses AND the beheaded. They are all raised together.

Just so you know, wisdom decrees that when a subject is covered in depth in one passage but is only mentioned in passing in another, we form our doctrine from the in-depth passage. For NT resurrections then, we should form our doctrine from passage like 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor. 15.

when Jesus comes back, "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected. All of them. What about the parable of the ten virgins? It would seem only 50% made it.

What about Heb. 9:28? It states that Jesus will appear only to those who are looking for Him.

Please answer this question as honestly as you can: will you be looking for Christ's coming TONIGHT? Will you be expecting Him when you believe He will not come until after?

The truth is, neither does mid trib have any, neither does prewrath have any, and neither does posttrib have any. Such a verse does not exist.

You are right. The text does not say it specifically. But then, it does not deny it either. Since I think the text shows us they will be resurrected at the 7th vial that ends the week, and the Old Testament saints will be resurrected then, I lump them in with the rest of the OT saints, since both of them will also be OT saints.

A clear and unambiguous verse? The truth is, there is no clear verse anywhere telling us that Paul's rapture will be _ _ _ _ _ _ _ the 70th week. If there was such a verse, the church would be agreed. After all, the church agrees that Jesus died and rose again. We find very clear verses proving that.

You have time and time again laid out "after the tribulation of those days" as if that ere a clear and unambiguous verse proving the rapture will be post-trib. However, the ONLY THING that verse proves unambiguously is that Jesus will come after the trib' and will send out angels to gather the elect. It does not prove the ones gathering are the church. Pretribbers see reasons why they cannot be.

So the great debate continues and probably will continue Until He comes.

None have been sent.
Jesus has not broken any seals.

2thes
2 :1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

See that?
Something removed ....then the AC REVEALED.
Not seated in power...REVEALED.

Count the number of times The Holy Spirit writes " REVEALED" in those verses....as if HE knew some would try to reframe it.

Let me guess

No postribs will address those passages

postribs ignore " firstfruits"

Yes
The white horseman kicks off the trib according to 2 thes 2.

The church removed according to 2 thes 2, then comes the wrath of the 4 horsemen.....sent from heaven
Did you see my post on "what if Jesus comes at night"?

It is apparent the 2nd coming on horses is daytime.

Yet another dilemma for postribbers.
( the doctrine of omissions)

Another thing is, in the ten virgins parable the wise were adamant about not sharing any oil. That to me is interesting because it raises a question, were they thinking that their lamp had to be full and if they gave the foolish oil they would have less than a full lamp? There are several possibilities, but it certainly appears Jesus is not coming back for a people not operating in the Holy Spirit. He's coming back for a red-hot bride.

FreeGrace2 said:
When I refer to the resurrection of the saved, I am specifically speaking about humans. Jesus is both God and man. So His resurrection is noted separately. Of course it should be. His resurrertion is at least 2,000 before any other believer is given a resurrection body.

However, if you want "titles", just go to Rev 20:5 and see that the resurrertion of Trib martyrs is described as the FIRST resurrection.
Where did John write that "there are only 2"? Paul was very clear that there is A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved. Where does Jesus fit into either category? He doesn't, obviously. So your counting is quite OFF.

Saved humans will ALL be resurrected at the same time, which is "when He comes". Or don't you believe Paul?

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

There is NO WAY to legitimately twist the bolded words into "waves" or "stages" or "series" of resurrections for the saved.

Because when Jesus comes, EVERYONE who belongs to Him will be given a resurrection body; whether the dead saints or the living ones "when He comes". ALL believers are in ONE resurrection. And Rev 20:5 calls the resurrection of Trib martyrs the FIRST resurrection. Which it is.

No way around this fact.

Nope. The Bible speaks of JUST ONE resurrection of the saved. Jesus was never saved. He didn't need to be.

What is clear here is that EVERY saved person is included in "they that are Christ's at His coming". From Adam on.

What in the world is this "must be" nonsense? Why would anyone even suggest that Christ's resurrection "must be the second death resurrection"? Absurd. He will be on that White Throne judging ALL unbelievers. They all get just one resurrection too.

Where is the "John" text? 1 Cor 15:23 could not be any more unambiguous. ALL believers will be resurrected "when He comes".

No waves, no stages, no series of resurrection for believers.

How silly. It doesn't "beg" anything. You are just DESPERATE to defend your unbiblical counting of resurrections.

Let's just focus on human beings, if you can. For human beings, there will be just 2 resurrections. One for the saved, and one for the unsaved.

Listen to Paul: Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

"A resurrection" clearly indicates just ONE. Again, no waves, no stages, no series of them.

Huh? These ARE the trib martyrs, in case you missed that point.

When Christ comes back, ALL believers will be resurrected. These are those who died BEFORE the Trib martyrs and will reign with Christ along with the beheaded martyrs.

"""However, since there is ONLY ONE resurrection, which will occur "when He comes", and Rev 20:5 describes the trib martyrs as the FIRST resurrrection, you have no ground to stand on"""

There can not possibly be one resurrection.

Jesus is firstfruits resurrection.
That automatically makes at least 2 more....or even three.

Firstfruits omission is your friend.

Those martyrs of rev 20 are gathered before the end of the trib.

Your docrine teachers left out "firstfruits".

But postrib doctrine is the doctrine of omission.

FreeGrace2 said:
I had written: "
That very name proves a secondfruit, thirdfruit, etc."

Wow. What speculation, what presumption. Show me anywhere the Bible makes such a claim. .
Of course it is. 1 Cor 15:23 destroys your presumptions. There is ONLY 1 resurrection of the saved.

Oh, how nice. Well, go ahead and focus on your barley heads. I will focus on saved people, of which there will be just ONE resurrection.

Who cares about barley?

Has NO relevance to reality.

say.that.in.front.of.a.mirror.