ERROR: That the Body of Christ becoming complete depends on a certain number of Gentiles.

The Fulness of the Gentiles means the Curch Age dispensation of the Gospel, not a SET NUMBER, God's true set number is every man who ever lived, hence the words "for God would not that any man should perish". Thus God's desire is the full allotment, but of course, God foreknows the exact number, but God did not CHOOSE THEM, He just gave us all the free gift of salvation, and either we accept it, or reject it, it is up to us as individuals. That is what Paul means by this. Let each man work out HIS OWN Salvation with fear and trembling. We all have our own destiny on our hands, else God would be nothing but a computer operator of sorts.

The completed verse is this"...until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in". "Come into what?" is the question which was already answered and ignored. As noted above Gentiles were the branches of the "wild olive tree" grafted into the "good olive tree" of believing Israel. Branches can be counted, and God has already seen the number of branches of the Gentiles, and therefore determined that there will be a set number of Gentiles within the Church before it is raptured. This will be "the fulness of the Gentiles". This is no way restricts anyone from being saved, since that is a very large number "which no man could number" (Rev 7:9).

Hi Gideon,

Sorry you thought I was talking to you about fixing the world. I was actually talking about the two views - one true (God...)and one false, (We...), to show that we do need to know what the will & purpose of God now. So glad you see that the world is beyond fixing. So agree there.

However I do see that you are looking for outward `proofs` that show `you` that believers are doing their job, (according to you.) You say, `we are responsible for bringing in the kingdom.` I don`t see that anywhere in God`s word.

Jesus said to make disciples, and that is a process over time, till they also disciple/mentor others. We are to help build up the Body of Christ. (Eph. 4: 16)

As to the `kingdom,` God made the whole universe and earth, it is His great kingdom and He never gave it away.

`The earth is the Lord`s, and all its fullness, the world and those who dwell therein.` (Ps. 24: 1)

Hi CS1,

Thanks for the clarification there. (CS1 and not CSI)

Not sure what you are getting at there. Can you clarify that too please?

Hi Gideon,

Yes I have seen that over my many years, however it is just that the spirit of lawlessness is coming out into the open. Yes previously there was a sense of right and wrong, (in some countries) but now it is all on its head as it were. Yet God`s word tells us that this is coming.

`For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.` (2 Thess. 2: 7)

The Body of Christ is never irrelevant, however man`s religious organisations are connecting more and more with the world system. The true believers are those who are holding fast to the Head and not man or an organisation. The Lord is building His Body, NOT changing the world.

That great multitude comes out of the great tribulation. (Rev. 7: 14) And the Body of Christ will be in glory then. (Rev. 3: 21)

The Fulness of their (our since I am a gentile) Mission/Calling. We are the ones called to Harvest souls during the Summer Harvest Period. The Jewish peoples had two harvests, the Spring Harvest (Israel birthed Jesus) and the Summer Harvest (we have been given the mantle of taking the Gospel of Christ Jesus unto the whole world). So when does this Fulness of Mission come in? Well, Jesus tells us in Matt. 24:14.

Matt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

WHAT END? The 70th week, the very end Jesus tells the Disciples will not happen when the 70 AD fall of Jerusalemhappens, he specifically says, the end is NOT YET/By and by. Then he goes into the Church Age period from Matt. 24:7-14, and thus when the Gospel has been taken unto all the World/Nations, the END (70th week) will then come, and Jesus thus transitions into actions affecting Israel/Jerusalem again in verse 15.

So, the Fulness of the Gentiles is speaking as per to their MISSION. We were given the dispensation of the Gospel. the mantle was taken from the Jews and given unto the Gentiles for a SET TIME called the Church Age.

WHY? Because if the Jews had of been allowed to remain in Israel and kept the Mantle of taking the Gospel unto the whole world, the Gospel would have eventually been swallowed up and merged with Judaism, thus God gave the Mantle unto the Gentiles and Judged Israel for rejecting Jesus and God Himself before that.

Hi Rondonmon,

That is an interesting scripture you have quoted. And I can see why you & others would think so. However may I suggest a few things to you.

Jesus came to Israel (among other things) `to confirm the promises made to the fathers.` (Rom. 15: 8) Thus we see Jesus reminding the people of Israel about the kingdom rule of God to come. Even after Jesus` resurrection the disciples asked Him if He was going to restore the kingdom rule to Israel at that time. (Acts 1: 6)

That was the only revelation they knew. Remember Peter was trying to get the Gentile believers to act like Jews, till Paul withstood him with his hypocrisy. (Gal. 2: 11 - 14)

It was not until Jesus ascended to the Father that He gave the revelation of good news concerning His Body to the Apostle Paul. And we hear Paul saying ` For I am determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.` (1 Cor. 2: 2) This is the good news that we, the Body of Christ preach.

The good news of the coming kingdom rule of the Messiah will be preach in the tribulation as they will be looking for the end of the Gentile rule and the coming rule of God through Israel over the nations. That is the `end,` the end of the Gentiles ruling over the nations and the coming kingdom rule of God through Israel.

regards, Marilyn.

Yes. They will be punished with no rain if they do not go once a year

The Gospel is about Salvation through Faith in Jesus Christ. That is preached during the 70th wee by the Two-witnesses unto the Jews only (by them) and unto the who world by an Angel (Rev. 14:6). No one stated the gospel would not be preached during the 70th week, th8s people can indeed be saved during the 70th week, just like the 3-5 million Jews who are saved during that time (Zechariah 13:8-8) just BEFORE the DOTL as seen in Zechaiah 14:1. So, those fats change nothing about the "Time of the Gentiles" or the "Fullness thereof". The only difference is the Gentiles are given a mission/job and will do so until the Rapture, then afterwards the Mantle is taken away from them and given unto te Jews (Two-witnesses) again and unto an Angel who preaches unto the WHOLE Gentile World as Rev. 14:6 clearly shows. There are no 144,000 "Super Preachers" those 144,000 are a CODE for All Israel who repent and then flee Judea for the Mountains/Petra/Bozrah. Just like the "Woman" in Rev. 12 is a CODE for all Israel who repents.

What is the code? Well 12 = Fulness and 10 = Completeness right? So, when you see God SHOUTING these numbers and timing them, it's a CODE for Fulness x Completeness as in 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,00n or ALL Israel who repents and then flees Judea.

No one is saying people do not get saved via the Gospel during the 70th-week END, just that it is not us Gentiles delivering that Gospel. It's the Two-witnesses delivering the Gospel unto only the Jews, that is what Rev. 11:1-3 tell us if we read very carefully we can see their parameters there, and unto the Gentiles left, and Angel is given that unique job.

Hi Rondonmon,

The two Witnesses are to `WITNESS of what they have seen and heard. (Just as we have witnesses in a court room etc.)

We have been told in God`s word who these 2 men are. They are Moses & Elijah. They witnessed Christ`s transfiguration where He told them of His soon departure from the earth. They were also at the tomb & witnessed Christ`s resurrection, & later ascension into glory.

Mount Transfiguration - `behold 2 men talked with Him (Christ), who were Moses & Elijah,....` (Luke 9: 30)


The Tomb - `behold, 2 men stood by them in shining garments.` (Luke 24: 4)


The Ascension - `while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up,

Behold, 2 men stood by them in white apparel,` (Acts 1: 10)


Thus we see these same 2 men now appearing to Israel during the second half of the tribulation witnessing of Christ, not only as their soon coming King but also as their High Priest, the one who gave His life for them, & arose victorious over sin & death.

I agree, it is Moses and Elijah. But, like Jesus they are told to only go unto the Jews, that is their only mission. To get Israel to repent BEFORE the coming Day of the Lord (see Malachi 4:5-6, Elijah is sent back BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord to turn Israel back unto God). Zechariah 13:8-9 shows that 1/3 of the Jews repent just before the DOTL which we see in the very next verse, Zechariah 14:1, Behold the Day o the Lord has arrived (cometh), and then Jerusalem gets sacked by the Anti-Christ.

The Passage in Rev. 11:1-3 gives us the Two-witnesses parameters.

Rev. 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them(Jews only) that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out(Gentile Court), and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

So, what are the Two-witnesses come for? The above tells us very clearly. They are to take the MEASUREMENT of the Jews ONLY, not the Gentiles. The Wailing Wall was not a part of the Temple of God, it was a part of the Gentile Court, a place that was made specifically for Gentiles to come into and worship. So, John in this vision is being shown that the Two-witnesses only have one mission, to get Israel to repent, after tey do this they will preach in Jerusalem for the remainder of their 1260 days as a testimony unto the Jews (many will see this on TV in faraway nations) as per unto why they will be judged if they do not accept Jesus Christ as the savior.

The Angel in Rev. 14:6 preaches the Gospel unto the rest of the World.

This can not be true but it seems like it has to be true because we have been "TAUGHT" that only the 70th week can be called "GREAT" tribulation by God and his Prophets/Disciples (John), but a simple reading of like 3 verses lets us know this can not be true. Just like Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20 seem to contradict each other, THEY DON'T and neither does this verse. In Dan. 7:11 it says the Beast is SLAIN and his BODY is destroyed and then he is cast into hell. In Rev 19:20 it says the Anti-Christ and False Prophet are cast into hell ALIVE. So, should we just move on and accept the contradictions of the bible, or should we DIG IN? I like to dig in because God doesn't give us contradictions, it is either men translating something wrong, or not understanding the passage in full.

In Dan. 7:11 it is VERY CLEAR, the Anti-Christ is KILLED and then cast into hell. So, is Rev. 19:20 contradicting this or not? Well, the bible says all men must die once and then be judged (even these two tyrants qualify as men). What we know is that our souls never die, thus these two are never allowed to rest/sleep in their graves, they are killed, judged, and then cast straight into hell fire, meanwhile, all other men are judged AFTER Jesus 1000 year reign, it is called the Second Resurrection. So, these other evil men get to rest until their judgment day, but the False Prophet and Anti-Christ are cast straight into hell, but only after they are killed as Dan. 7:11 says. Our souls never die, so they are ALIVE, and they are cast into hell without being allowed to rest until the Second Resurrection.

The same thing happens in Rev. 7:9-17, we can look at two scriptures that tell us these people seen here CAN NOT be from the 70th-week tribulation. Then like the other two seemingly contradictory scriptures above we can solve the seeming contradiction, this time the error comes from MEN'S TRADITIONS passed down in error.

At the 5th Seal, Jesus answers a question by the Martyrs, How long shall we wait for vengeance by those ON EARTH? (Who of course killed them and they CURRENTLY live on earth). Here is his response BELOW: In Rev. 6:11

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So, Jesus tells these Martyrs that they must REST (Sleep) for a little while UNTIL their fellow brothers in Christ should be KILLED as they were has been FULFILLED (Or in layman's terms, until the Anti-Christs 42-month rule on this earth is over.) So, these Martyrs from the 70th week according to Jesus' own words can not be those people seen in Rev. 7:9-17, unless Jesus is wrong, and God is never wrong, we men and women are wrong, but not God.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them(Church returns with Jesus), and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So, when does this verse show THEY (the Martyrs of Jesus Chrst who refused the Mark of the Beast during the 70th week tribulation period) getting Judged? Well, it clearly shows THEY get judged AFTER Jesus' Second Coming doesn't it sister? So THEY can not be the ones seen in Rev. 7:9-17, starting to smell a rat yet? Someone has passed down a MEN'S TRADITION that just can't be true according to the scriptures. So, what gives? Well, we humans just limited God to the number of things He can call GREAT to only one thing, the 70th week tribulation period, thus we boxed God into a corner via our own imaginations and traditions, we managed to pigeonhole God's vocabulary.

So, the 70th-week troubles can indeed be the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES.........AND..........The 2000 some odd year Church Age Period can also be GREATER IN LENGTH than the 70th week which lasts only 7 years or God's Wrath which lasts only 3.5 years. So, we see the Church in Heaven who indeed come out of tribulation on this earth because in John Jesus told us that all-time on its earth is TRIBULATION. Millions of our brothers have been murdered for Jesus' name, the Romans murdered many a Christian, it is said that our singing as we died haunted them, made them turn from a Beast Nation to a nation that turned unto Christ and sent out his Gospel. (The Mortal Wound of the Beast).

So, those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 CAN NOT be from the 70th-week tribulation, I have proven this via the scriptures to all that will not shut their eyes to the facts. And since ALL-TIME on this earth is tribulation, and since 2000 is GREATER than 7 as in 2000>7 then John is correct in his vocabulary (which God gave unto Jesus who gave it unto John) via these people having come out of Great Tribulation. Notice, John did not say they came out of the Greatest Ever Period of Tribulation ever seen on this earth, he merely state they came out of Great Tribulation.

Thus it now fits the Raptured Pre Trib Church. It CAN NOT fit any Martyr from the 70th week unless God's word is not true. Thiis is how one must solve seeming contradictions. Even when they foil one's own beliefs.

Hi Rondonmon,

I agree with much of what you say, however it is the good news of their Messiah coming that is preached, His kingdom rule through Israel over the nations. That is what the WITNESSES are WITNESSING about. That is why they are called WITNESSES.

Too much conflicting info there Ron,

The Word of God clearly says these came out of the great trib, Then we see that they died of `hunger, thirst and heat,` thus they are NOT martyrs. (Rev. 7: 16) Finally we see that they have `palm branches` (v. 9) indicating the Feast of Tabernacles. This represents when God comes by His Spirit to dwell with the people on the earth. (Rev. 21: 3 & 24) So there we see where this great multitude will go.

Not at all conflicting sister, the only conflict is the fact that Jesus' own words say these from the 70th week can not be those seen in Rev. 7:9-17. As does Rev. 20:4.

As per the palm tree branches, the Jews were spoken of in verses 1-8, the 144,000 are the Jews who repent as seen in Zechariah 13:8-9 (the 1/3 which = 3-5 million Jews) and then flee Judea when they see the AoD just before the DOTL falls on mankind (God's Wrath). Thus we get a transition that tells us explicitly that we are now being shown the Christian Church in Heaven, the same one we saw in Rev. 4:4 before the Seals were ever opened. Thus the Palm Tree Branches which Christians celebrate as Palm Sunday one week before Passover every year. It's just symbolism here, pointing out this is the Church in Heaven at this time and this happens before the 3.5 years of Great Tribulation even begins via the Rev. 8 Asteroid Impact. The Seals are not Judgments, the seals are Jesus opening a scroll of Judgments, only when the 7th Seal is off can the Judgments start, that is why Seal #7 is over in Rev. 8.

Nowhere does it ever say they died of heat sister, (but that s irrelevant anyway because I don't claim that nor does it say or even imply everyone that comes out oh the Church Age Tribulation has to gave died a Martyr, I think you are conflating the 5th Seal with my overall point here). What the passage is saying is that these people seen here from every Nation and Pepples on earth (The Church) are in Heaven with God and He will be their Sunlight, He will be our Sustenance (they/we will need no food from henceforth) thus we will never again thirst nor be hungry, God Hmself will illuminate our lives, etc., etc.

So, they don't have to be Martyrs, that is the whole point, the WHOLE Church Age is called Tribulation by Jesus Christ himself in John 16:33,

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Thus those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 came out of the 2000 some odd year GREAT Church Age Tribulation. Nothing else fits. The problem is men/humans create their own legends like the 144.000 Super Preachers that do not exist. This is pretty simple stuff, we see that Jesus called our time (Church Age) in this earth controlled by the god of this earth (Satan) Tribulation, thus all of us (the Church) who overcome this evil world will have come forth out of Tribulation. And since 2000 is Greater than 7 or 3.5 it is called the Great Tribulation Period by John, as in 2000 is Greater than the other two numbers. I did not say everyone who comes forth from this Church Age had to be Martyrs, most aren't, you are conflating the 5th Seal with this passage because you have always seen ot is being conjoined, it's not. It is like an elephant bound with a chain, you can then place a string on his foot and he will not even try to escape. We get these things ingrained in our minds and we can't think outside that box, been there done that. And those in Heaven with Gid are indeed DWELLING with God. Thus, those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are seen WAY BEFORE the Second Coming which only happens in Rev. 16:19.

Peace Sister.

But they are only called to go unto the Jews BECAUSE the tie of the Gentiles has been fulfilled. So, we agree more than disagree here, it's just semantics.