How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

Oh...and acts 1.....ask any postribber to unpack "like manner".

Then wait....and wait.....and wait....and wait

Lol they will not go there.

Some good stuff, Gary.

When studying scripture there's a tendency for us to forget about context. But just based on context alone we know that The Messiah gave his prophecies before the events of the book of Acts, so those events must somehow be included in Messiah's prophecies somewhere.


Luke 21:12-15
But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.


^ This passage literally began its fulfillment when Stephen was stoned, when Peter was put in prison, and when Paul was sent to Rome to give his testimony in front of officials. Next, verses 16 &17 prophesy betrayed by kin, which is literally what the Jews did to them during the book of Acts.

The Olivet Discourse is literally a summary prediction of everything that happens after Messiah leaves leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem, followed by the Great Tribulation of the Jews for rejecting Him (which is "the time of the Gentiles" a.k.a. the so-called church age...the time that's currently drawing to a close).

The Time of the Gentiles is not the Church Age.

Oh...and acts 1.....ask any postribber to unpack "like manner".

Then wait....and wait.....and wait....and wait

Lol they will not go there.

Romans 11 is a parallel explanation of what was prophesied to happen to the Jews during the Olivet Discourse. Verses 5-7 speak about the remnant of Israel according to the "election of grace", and how this "election" received what was promised. This is the very same "elect" mentioned in the Olivet Discourse. The chapter then continues...


Romans 11:11-15, 17-19, 24-26 [brackets mine]
11 I say then, Have they [Israelites] stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall [great tribulation] salvation is come unto the Gentiles [church age], for to provoke them [Israelites] to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them [great tribulation] be the riches of the world [church age], and the diminishing of them [great tribulation] the riches of the Gentiles [church age]; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them [great tribulation] be the reconciling of the world [church age], what shall the receiving of them [regathering of Israel] be, but life from the dead [The future resurrection]?

17 And if some of the branches be broken off [great tribulation] , and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them [church age], and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off [great tribulation] , that I might be grafted in [church age].

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree [church age]: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree [regathering of Israel]?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel [great tribulation] until the fullness of the Gentiles [time of the gentiles] be come in.

26 And so all Israel [Jew & Gentile believers] shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


This time we've been in for the past 2000 years...the so-called church age...has been "the time of the gentiles". It's been the time Israel has been in judgment, their great tribulation. They fall equals the gentiles' salvation until all Israel (Jew and Gentile) is gathered when Messiah comes.

INCORRECT and you just violated the Eternal Commandment by "adding to God's words" to support a man made doctrine.

The Great Tribulation is not the reason of their(Jews) fall.

Every place where you inserted your words 'great tribulation' you added to Scripture - Bad.

The Jews fell because of #1 unbelief, #2 hardness of heart and #3 seeking to establish their own righteousness = antichrist

The fullness of the Gentiles is not the 'Church Age' - again, adding to Scripture.

Refresh yourself on Deuteronomy 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18-19

The 'fullness of the Gentiles' can be found in OT and what it means.

i know and embrace fully all of Pauls words especially Romans

NEVER separate the Body of Christ by man-made doctrines of pre-trib and other errors..

Romans 11 is a parallel explanation of what was prophesied to happen to the Jews during the Olivet Discourse. Verses 5-7 speak about the remnant of Israel according to the "election of grace", and how this "election" received what was promised. This is the very same "elect" mentioned in the Olivet Discourse. The chapter then continues...


Romans 11:11-15, 17-19, 24-26 [brackets mine]
11 I say then, Have they [Israelites] stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall [great tribulation] salvation is come unto the Gentiles [church age], for to provoke them [Israelites] to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them [great tribulation] be the riches of the world [church age], and the diminishing of them [great tribulation] the riches of the Gentiles [church age]; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them [great tribulation] be the reconciling of the world [church age], what shall the receiving of them [regathering of Israel] be, but life from the dead [The future resurrection]?

17 And if some of the branches be broken off [great tribulation] , and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them [church age], and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off [great tribulation] , that I might be grafted in [church age].

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree [church age]: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree [regathering of Israel]?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel [great tribulation] until the fullness of the Gentiles [time of the gentiles] be come in.

26 And so all Israel [Jew & Gentile believers] shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


This time we've been in for the past 2000 years...the so-called church age...has been "the time of the gentiles". It's been the time Israel has been in judgment, their great tribulation. Their fall equals the gentiles' salvation until that time is done and all Israel (Jew and Gentile) is gathered when Messiah comes. Resurrection!

I never said the great tribulation is the reason for the Jews' fall. The Jews' fall IS their time of great tribulation FOR rejecting the Messiah.

Romans 11:15
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?


If my insertions didn't mean what the phrases meant then please explain...

What does "casting away of the Israelites" mean?

What does "reconciling the world" mean?

What does "life from the dead" mean?

Do you SEE what Paul said here???

I never said the great tribulation is the reason for the Jews' fall. The Jews' fall IS their time of great tribulation FOR rejecting the Messiah.

Romans 11:15
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?


If my insertions didn't mean what the phrases meant then please explain...

What does "casting away of the Israelites" mean?

What does "reconciling of the world" mean?

What does "life from the dead" mean?

Pretty sure...which is why I inserted the words in brackets...to show readers the connections.

YES, in verse 15 you did GOOD, according to the WORD, except you need to drop the 'great tribulation' from all of Romans 11.

The 'Great Tribulation' for the Jews is Day of Jacob's trouble (DoJT)

Your Post 2423 - you added "great tribulation" to Scripture = Romans ch 11

So please, maybe correct that - amen.

The "casting away" is #1 "what you sow you reap" judgment upon the Jews - SEE Acts = Stephen, Peter

but more importantly - it is temporary = HALLELUJAH

"reconciliation of the world" = you do not know what this means???

Your condescension is a little offputting, I gotta say...there juuust might be a few things you can learn here as well lol.



Note that your original disagreement with my post was regarding TIME. You said "the time of the gentiles is NOT the church age". My reply was to specifically point out TIMEFRAMES as it relates to Paul's message in Romans 11.

We've been currently living through what scholars call "the church age", that is, the historic time from Pentecost to the rapture when the gospel has spread to the gentiles...so the last 2000 years.

Luke 21:24 and Matthew 24:21 both explain that a TIME of great tribulation was prophesied to fall on the Jews after the destruction of their city, specifically in fulfillment of the vengeance written in scripture for rejecting the One who The Almighty would send that they had to listen to. This destruction happened in 70 AD, which means what followed in history was the great tribulation of the jews as documented (from their exile through to the holocaust, persecution and mockery).


Luke 21:20-24
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Messiah prophesies:

1) Jerusalem's destruction
2) This destruction is the prophesied wrath written in the OT for the ISRAELITES, not for anyone else (i.e. "this people").
3) The Israelites will be killed, will be scattered into all nations, and will start "the time of the gentiles" until their time is finished

Days of vengeance beginning for Jews = time of gentiles beginning for the nations. This is also the time when the gospel was taken to the nations. As Romans 11 says, through their fall salvation goes to the gentiles. It also says Israel's fall BE the riches of the nations. When did the Jews fall begin? In 70 AD with the destruction of their temple and city. Throughout the timeframe of the church age, as the gospel spread through the gentile nations, the Jews suffered rejection and persecution.


Matthew 24:15-22
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.

19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.


Notice, verses 15-22 are warning those in the land about the great tribulation that will fall. Most Gentile believers don't honor the sabbath nor live in Jerusalem, so this is specifically addressing Israelites. Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are the same prophecies concerning the judgment that was to fall on the Judean Israelites living in the land, precipitated by their rejection of the Messiah in violation of the instructions given by Almighty in the OT.

If these days of distress continued upon them none of them would have been saved...but for the sake of the elect, those days of distress were cut short. Who is the elect? Romans 11 explains who the elect is.


Romans 11:1-7
11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.


The elect is the fleshy remnant of Israel who believes the Messiah. They are spared the judgment that was to fall upon the Jews. These escape the wrath.

----

The Almighty wastes no situation. The same gentiles that were the instrument of His wrath upon the Jews for rejecting and killing His Son are the same ones who received riches and the opportunity for salvation during the Jews' time of tribulation. Once this time - the time of the gentiles; the church age - comes to an end (pretty soon) the Jews elected to return will be regathered along with the gentile believers in Messiah, which will coincide with the resurrection of the dead in Christ equalling "all Israel".

I am referring to Revelation 14:14-16.

Let's see...

If you take "like manner" literally - then, the-very-first-next-time anyone sees Jesus - they will see Him coming down from clouds until His feet touch the earth and He is standing on the earth.

If that is Jesus sitting on a cloud, it is not, and can't be ,the second coming or the rapture

Re read it
His feet were in the clouds when they said " like manner"

Only fits pretrib rapture

We have it as it is written on all the rapture verses.

No other position can make that claim

The 'Time of the Gentiles' is not the 'Church Age' - this is man-made doctrine.

The ToG refers to the Rule of the unsaved Gentile kingdoms ruling throughout the wordl(age) = NOT the Church/Body of Christ.

Prophet Daniel recorded this 'Time of the Gentiles' = Statue with Head of Gold etc etc on thru to chapter 12.

What do you believe is the "reconciliation of the world" in Romans 11:15

It's all in Romans 11. It's not a man-made doctrine.

Again, we're talking about "TIME", not groups. TIME...AGE. The church AGE is the SAME TIMEFRAME as the time of the gentiles. As the unsaved gentile kingdoms have ruled the world, the body of Christ has also been growing. I think you'll agree that this is what's been happening for the past 2000 years. At the same time, the Jews have been suffering at the hands of those unsaved gentile kingdoms from which the gentile believers came.


Romans 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


The Messiah gave the kingdom to another people that would bear fruit, to make fleshy Israel jealous, drawing in those who are His from the pagan kingdoms while punishing the Jews for their rejection of Him WITH those pagan kingdoms. Their great tribulation.

The blindless of Israel = the time of the gentiles to be grafted into the root (Christ).



The prophet Daniel didn't mention the phrase "time of the gentiles" in any of the prophecies given to him, but Messiah specifically did as it relates to the time judgment upon the Jews in Luke 21.

The Messiah said after the Jews are scattered to the nations Jerusalem would be trampled by Gentile until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. This means that no time prior to the 70AD destruction was the time of the gentiles. He was pronouncing judgment on Jerusalem. The time of the gentiles began when Rome took over the land and renamed it "Palestine" after expelling the Jews in the first century.

It's important to synchronize proper timeframes so that we understand where we are in eschatology and to show that the only proper understanding of the order of events is a post-tribulation rapture (because the great tribulation of the jews was during the same time that Gentiles were being grafted into the body of Christ: these past 2000 years).



I believe what scripture says it is.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Daniel did not have to mention the phrase "ToG" for he gave us the details of it and the LORD confirmed that = Luke 21.