What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

cv5 · Nov 2, 2021

There is no doubt that death is a form of punishment. However it definitely does not balance the scales of Gods righteous judgment. This will only be meted out after the resurrection of the unjustified at the GWT judgement, where the full sentence will be passed. According to your standard everyone accrues the same form of punishment.....to be physically killed one more time.

Absolutely unscriptural and patently preposterous.

It may have escaped your notice but God actually kills the justified as a form of chastisement as well. How does that factor into your formula?

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 2, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

INSTEAD OF this ^ one (#374), I had meant the following link / post (#539):

Post #539 - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4683891

"destroyed" (and "when" this is referring to).

[I had grabbed it earlier, then dropped it... so incorrectly posted a different post using the word "destruction" but was the WRONG POST... SORRY! Meant this ^ one! Post #539 instead!]

Magenta · Nov 2, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

Jesus said we (believers) would never die. So it is not just a matter of opinion but of rightly dividing the Word.

Magenta · Nov 2, 2021

Magenta said:

No surprise that Cv5 disagreed with this post.

While un-Biblical ideas are floated around and accepted as legitimate,
people who claim to take the Bible literally reject what it actually says.

Laura798 · Nov 2, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

What about those who worship the beast and receive the mark of Satan and serve him ?

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;

and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:

and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So all the dead who died once are raised to life by the spirit to face eternal judgement

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12, 14-15‬ ‭

it seems the second death would be that place of torment

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations:

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

….Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-32, 34, 41, 46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I don’t think the second death is actually death either I think Satan has his CHildren and servants in the earth they will spend the afterlife with him in torment

Gods will spend eternity with him. Regardless it’s just my own understanding of what scriptures say we all die once everyone agrees there . But what happens after is just our opinions of what it says

Oops, my apologies -- my previous post was in response to Pilgram not DW.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 2, 2021

Laura798 said:

You quoted Pilgrimshope.

Are you talking to ME? Or were you just confused there?

EDIT: Nevermind... I see your updated post. = )

Laura798 · Nov 2, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Hi DW, I corrected that--apologies.

Magenta · Nov 2, 2021

Lucy-Pevensie said:

First of all, a cult is generally one that denies a basic tenet of Christianity such as the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, and salvation by grace through faith alone. Historically, the doctrine YOU hold to was not introduced until centuries after Jesus walked this world.

Really it puzzles me how some (such as you!) say death is not punishment, or that the soul of man is immortal, for it comes across as such a vacuous clutching at straws to make such claims, especially since they fly in the face of what Scripture explicitly states to the contrary.

Your doctrine was not popularized until centuries after the foundation of Christ's church body.

The testimony of Arnobius (died c. 330 A.D), demonstrates how belief in the Biblical doctrine of the conditional immortality of the soul became corrupted with Greek ideas associated with punishment of the immortal soul in the eternal fires of Hades. Arnobius believed in annihilationalism; which it to say that the penalty of the wicked is a form of `everlasting destruction', in the sense that the destruction of the impenitent sinner has an everlasting result, which is eternal death, or annihlation. However, he also imbibed elements of pagan philosophy, in the idea that at death the soul is punished in Hades for an indefinite period of time, at which it is tormented in the flames of hell according to the punishment which is due to it. His account of the punishment which is metred out to the wicked gives us one of the first extant records which depicts the wicked as suffering in hell for inderterminate periods according to the gravity of their sin, which thus depicts God as delighting in the torment of the wicked, so that satisfaction might be made to God as an atonement for their sin.

Arnobius' account formed the basis of later `orthodox' Protestant theology which portrays the souls of the lost as suffering in torment in hell-fire for eternity - and which later also coalesced in the Catholic Church under Pope Gregory I (c. 540 A.D - 604 A.D); who is also called `the Great'. He was the first Pope who came from a monastic background, wrote voluminously, and following in the footsteps of Augustine who had previously written copious amounts of material on this subject one hundred years before him, gave the doctrine of the natural immortality of the soul and the eternal punishing of the wicked in the eternal fires of hell the official sanction of the Church. He was canonized as a Saint, is regarded as a Doctor of the Church and is often credited with founding the medieval papacy.

By the early sixteenth century, this belief had become so entrenched within the Catholic Church, that in the convening of the 5th Lateran Council in 1513, Pope Leo X condemned the doctrine of the conditional mortality of the soul as abject heresy. By contrast, the early Church Fathers were aware of the Platonizing influences which were already threatening the infant Church when the disciples of Christ were still alive, and strenuously resisted this, for as this exhortation from Ignatius Theophorus (c. 30 - c. 107 A.D.) demonstrates, they believed that when we die we `sleep together' in the dust of the earth, and then `awake together as the stewards, and associates, and servants of God' when Christ returns:

`Labour together with one another; strive in company together; run together; suffer together; sleep together [in death]; and awake together [in the resurrection], as the stewards, and associates, and servants of God.' (`Epistle to Polycarp', Ignatius, A.N.F, ch. 6)

The Syriac translation of `awake together' has been translated as `rise together', which indicates that it is indeed death which Ignatius was speaking of when he used the word `sleep'. Ignatius suffered martyrdom during the reign of the Roman Emerperor Trajan, (98 -117 A.D.) and wrote this epistle to Polycarp (69 - 155 A.D), who suffered martyrdom in 155 A.D for his faith. Both men are reputed to have sat at the feet of John, the `beloved disciple of Christ'. John also testified to this same belief, for he tells us in his gospel that when Christ described Lazarus as `sleeping' in the grave, His disciples believed that He was speaking of natural sleep: `Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.' Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Nevertheless Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, "Lazarus is dead".' (John 11: 13 - 14)

Obviously, John `the beloved disciple of Christ' was instructed by Jesus Himself of this doctrine. The apostle Paul was a contemporary of John, and was in agreement with John on this doctrine. Ignatius and Polycarp were students of John and received this doctrine from him, for the Ignatian epistle to Polycarp reveals that not only were the two men close friends, but Polycarp received instruction from Ignatius, and the two men were in agreement on this doctrine. Therefore we have an unbroken testimony of witnesses from Jesus Himself, to John, the apostle Paul and the early Church Fathers Ignatius and Polycarp, who all taught that we `sleep' in the grave until the Resurrection, at which time our corruptible bodies are rendered incorruptible, and we `put on' immortality (1 Cor. 15: 51 - 58). source

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 2, 2021

Magenta said:

If you're referring to the verse I think you are referring to, then I believe you may be taking it out of context.

Also, why would Jesus refer to word "died" (in Lk16) in reference to both the rich man AND Lazarus / the beggar, when they are shown to be in two distinct places following when they each "died" (... meaning, if this were the case as you say):

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented

Also, why would Revelation 14:13 say (of the believers of that time-frame)... by that, I mean, why are the words "the dead" and "dying" used here?:

"And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, 'Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' 'Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours -- and their works do follow them!'"

Yes, and I would exhort the readers to examine the context where Jesus had made such a statement. = )

Yahshua · Nov 2, 2021

A couple of things here, CV5...

cv5 said:

How can you declare this? It's grossly presumptuous (putting it mildly), having posted no scriptures to support that death - the wage of sin as declared by scripture - isn't sufficient enough payment in all cases.

cv5 said:

The flesh of Adam must die and return to the dust because it was declared and the Almighty's Word can not return void. We know the biggest reasons why The Messiah had to die but another is because He also had the flesh of Adam (through His mother). But because He committed no sin in life He had the right to take up His life again, satisfying the decree upon Adam's flesh. The Almighty's Word can not return void.

All are required to die once because of the decree upon Adam's flesh...because all still have Adam's flesh (whether righteous or unrighteous)...but those "in Messiah" who have died have the right to be resurrected to immortality...while some "in Him" who are still alive and remain at His coming will never die but be transformed from Adam's flesh to Christ's flesh.

John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven— the Son of Man.

Only The Messiah's flesh is eternal.

cv5 said:

Can you share an example of this so that we know where you're coming from?

Magenta · Nov 2, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

If you're referring to the verse I think you are referring to, then I believe you may be taking it out of context.

Also, why would Jesus refer to word "died" (in Lk16) in reference to both the rich man AND Lazarus / the beggar, when they are shown to be in two distinct places following when they each "died" (... meaning, if this were the case as you say):

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented

Also, why would Revelation 14:13 say (of the believers of that time-frame)... by that, I mean, why are the words "the dead" and "dying" used here?:

"And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, 'Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' 'Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours -- and their works do follow them!'"

Yes, and I would exhort the readers to examine the context where Jesus had made such a statement. = )

More clutching at straws. How many times did Jesus say this? I have not quoted it out of context at all.

The dead referred to in Rev, those alive in Christ, are only dead in the sense that they
have passed out of this world. If you cannot accept what Jesus said, that is on you.

They are alive in Christ.

cv5 · Nov 2, 2021

Yahshua said:

TDW comes out the winner almost 100% of the time on these debates. That's just the way it is friend. Really it's quite embarrassing at the inability of others to defend their position Scripturally ACCURATELY. So yeah I think he's the finest scholar on Christianchat. And I am more than willing to listen to him just the way I'm willing to listen to the apostle Paul, John MacArthur, J Vernon McGee, Joe Focht (a more recent find) etc.

In terms of scholarship I rate myself 2.5 to 3 out of 10 (lack of training and WAS too busy). So I'm all ears my friends all ears.....when I find someone who actually knows what they're talking about. Which is a lot rarer than you would think....

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 2, 2021

Well now we're getting back into what I'd put in Post #701 (bottom half of that article; pg36) regarding 2Cor5:14,15's "...that if one died for all, THEN WERE ALL DEAD: And that he died for all, that THEY WHICH LIVE should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him that died for them and rose again":

Post #701 - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4685288

Duckybill · Nov 2, 2021

cv5 said:

Telling unbelievers they will cease to exist is totally ridiculous. Why would they fear that? All their problems will be over if that is true, but it's a lie of Satan. Satan wants our company in Hell with him, "forever and ever".

Magenta · Nov 2, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Yes, all were spiritually dead before any were made alive in Christ.

So the idea that the spiritually dead do not spiritually die is mistaken.

They are already spiritually dead, and remain so.

They do not magically come alive to spiritually suffer in perpetuity.

They are cast into the LoF to be destroyed (perish) to the uttermost.

Both body and soul, as Jesus said.

Duckybill · Nov 2, 2021

Revelation 20:14-15 (NKJV)
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

The second death? That means they were already dead but still alive. Death does not mean "cease to exist"! "Tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER" means exactly what it says, no matter how many "Christians" try to remove it from the Bible, possible removing their own names from the Book of Life.

Laura798 · Nov 2, 2021

Duckybill said:

Well, that's what the pagans and Romans Catholics believed too! And so they decided to mix this myth up with Christianity--that is Satan's best used tool--to mix the truth with LIES.

Satan wants people to think God is Evil. But the truth is God wants people to be drawn by His love, mercy and truth--by the gift of eternal life and being able to be in His presences for all eternity.

"For instance, many Christians insist that if you question hell, you are rejecting what has always been agreed upon by the Church, yet the doctrine of eternal torment was not a widely held view for the first five centuries after Christ, particularly in the early Eastern Church, the Church of the early apostles and Church fathers such as Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, and others.

What we do see during this time is the expansion and proliferation of pagan myths about the afterlife, which were then repackaged as eternal, fiery torment in the Western (Catholic) Church, primarily by Latin theologians and Church leaders from Rome. It seems this was most likely motivated by political expediency. The idea of eternal torment was a prime tool for controlling the average churchgoer with fear and was congruent with secular mythologies of the time. Later, pop culture added fuel to the fire (pun intended) through imaginative works like Dante’s Inferno."

https://medium.com/@BrazenChurch/ho...-torment-invaded-church-doctrine-7610e6b70815

Duckybill · Nov 2, 2021

Laura798 said:

Are you up to a Bible challenge? The fear and wrath of God VS the love of God?

"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

Luke 16:22-28 (NKJV)
22 The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'

Proverbs 1:7 (NKJV)
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Get some wisdom!

Laura798 · Nov 2, 2021

Duckybill said:

DB,
I've made this request a bazillion times already--please stop using the same few figurative verses. Please shake things up a bit on the ECT side by sharing at the minimum five literal verses from the Old Testament and 5 literal from the New that state eternal conscious torment is the penalty for sin.

We have shared hundreds--hundreds of literal verses that say death / destruction is the punishment for the unbeliever.

Yahshua · Nov 2, 2021

cv5 said:

...But how can you be sure anyone here knows what they're talking about if you're admittedly not training but are "all ears"?

2 Timothy 3:16, 4:3
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness...For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but having itching ears, they shall heap to themselves teachers in accordance with their own lusts.

What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

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