What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

Consider that in the traditional view, the wicked are not being punished to learn something. There’s nothing remedial about their torment. Rather, God keeps them in existence for the sole purpose of having them experience pain. And this pain is without hope of ever being terminated or relieved. After twenty trillion trillion years of torment, the damned are no closer to completing their dire sentence than they were their first moment of horror. Is this view really compatible with a God whose heart was expressed in Jesus’ dying prayer, “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do” (Lk 23:34)? If agents get to the point where they are indeed hopelessly locked in their resistance to God, it seems more reasonable, just, and Biblical, to believe God would put them out of their misery.

From the annihilationist perspective, God’s justice and mercy unite in condemning the wicked to extinction. He justly punishes their sin and forbids them a place within the Kingdom, mercifully annihilating them precisely so they will not endlessly endure what the traditional view says they endure. source The lie of Satan is alive and repeatedly iterated to this day: "Thou shalt not surely die."

Jesus Who wrote the OT, and understands it better than you or anyone else, does not share in your stupefying errant humanistic philosophical musings.

As is evidenced by Luke 12:4-5. I suggest you read it using the Berean literal Bible and the Greek.

Luke 12:4-5 (Parallel with Matthew 10:28)
And I say to you My friends, you should not fear because of those killing the body and after these things Not being able to do anything more abundantly. But I will show you Whom you should fear: Fear the One who has authority, after the killing, to cast into Gehenna. Yes I say to you fear Him.

Yes that's right. The same Gehenna eternal fire PREPARED for Satan and his angels. The very same to Ghenna fire that the demons of Gadara feared being "tortured" in. Just as Jesus goes to prepare a place for us He has prepared a place for unredeemed men and demons.

Please read Matthew 25:41 Magenta. In other words please do not AVOID reading Matthew 25:41.
These two passages ALONE are enough to create doctrine but there are many many many others.

Jesus is definitely not confused Magenta. Nor am I.

You are misreading the verse:

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

I can surely see how Adam and Christ are compared, albeit as opposites...one brought in death, the other brought in life. But how exactly is Adam the "figure" of Him to come?

Figure is Tupos, which means a type or similar likeness. So how exactly was Adam a type of Christ? Wasn't he really the opposite of a type of Christ? Isn't Adam actually a type of one who fell out of paradise through sin? Isn't Adam really a type of satan/lucifer?

Here is TUPOS used in various verses to demonstrate the similarity not UN-similairity.

1 Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples TUPOS to the flock.

Titus 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern TUPOS of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

1 Timothy 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example TUPOS of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

2 Thessalonians 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample TUPOS unto you to follow us.

1 Thessalonians 1:7 So that ye were ensamples TUPOS to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. TUPOS

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples:TUPOS and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples TUPOS , to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure TUPOS of him that was to come.

So who showed an example or a type of Christ, Adam or Moses? Who's key aspects of their life resembles what Christ would do? The man who fell from grace and was kicked out of Paradise and whom brought in death? Or was it the LEADER, who led Israel out of captivity, through the wilderness TO the promised land, the same man who brought the rules regarding blood sacrifices that cleansed them?...could it be him that was a type of Christ? It's really not very difficult when It's all spelled out.



Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.




Why does it say death reigned from Adam TO Moses...as if it stopped there? "from Adam to Moses" would seem to indicate that an opportunity for life came with the giving of the law, that there might be a chance through the forgiveness of sins allowed for through the law, at life. And that is true!

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


It was difficult but not impossible. The opportunity was there through the law, through Moses.


Romans 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.


Exodus 29:36 And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.


Leviticus 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
Leviticus 4:21 And he shall carry forth the bullock without the camp, and burn him as he burned the first bullock: it is a sin offering for the congregation.

The new testament has a better way but eternal life was possible to acheive under the old covenant.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


"who is the figure of him that was to come"

Lets make this as clear and as plain as we can:

"whose life mirrored Christ's life in many important ways?"

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, whose life mirrored Christ's life in many important ways.

In this verse, the two being compared are compared as similars, not compared as opposites. That's what the greek says, nothing in the grammar alters that.

The shadow of him to come" -what that means is that someone acted in a Messiah like way in the past like a forerunner or early version of a Messiah. Who fits that better? Adam or Moses? Remember it is Christ casting a shadow of himself to the past and a shadow is definitely not a perfect representation but it should have a likeness of the caster. So, who "looks like" a Messiah between those two men?




I don't see Adam as a type of Christ. Adam sinned and was greatly punished and cast from the garden. What kind of type of Christ is that?? There is much written to distinguish the very differences between the first Adam who was flesh, and the last Adam who was spiritual. Scripture makes clear how very different the two were. Adam was the first, Christ was the last. They are opposites in what they represent. When we think of Adam it is failure, sin, death, rebellion, denial, nakedness and shame. I do not think of these things when I think of Christ.


1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Last
G2078
e?´s?at??
eschatos
es'-khat-os
A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.

We know Jesus wasn't literally the last or "final" man/adam but the term can mean "farthest" as in the "furthest Adam". I would interpret it closer to meaning Jesus would be the farthest from what Adam was and this naturally would be in a spiritual way. Adam symbolizes the worst in us all, the fallen sinner trying to hide his sins from God, blaming others, even blaming God. God punished him with a life time of hardship ending in death. That is a far fall to take from being the man in a "paradise" who did not have to worry about dying, someone who walked with God and then lost it all in an intentional sin. Jesus would be the farthest from that kind of a man, the opposite of that kind of example. This is why Adam does not represent or figure an early type of Messiah. Nothing he did was Messiah-like in the slightest but many others have shown these similar qualities. Moses certainly did in more ways than anyone else.


Moses was the one who led Israel to the promised land, spoke for God on many occasions, wrote the law and was the
chief priest basically...all things Christ would be and fulfill.

Adam is a type for all sinners who fall short, while Moses was the type for Christ (yes Moses did sin as we all do but it was the ways God used Moses that makes him the proper type)

Adam was formed innocent and sinless. He lived with God in Paradise (The Garden). He was tempted with sin and fell from God's grace, and was cast out of that Paradise and sentenced to hard labor and eventual death. In no sense is Adam ever a type of Christ. He is a type of Lucifer, first sinner, fallen creation, a rebel against God, cast from paradise, sentenced to death for his crime...it's impossible to make Adam into a type of Christ.

Is Adam a Tupos or a type of our Lord Jesus Christ? NO!

Is Adam an "ensample" of what would be found in the life of our Saviour? NO!

That's more like what happened to satan/Lucifer. Adam died for his OWN sins, Christ died for OUR sins. Adam is not a type of the Messiah, he was a type of the fallen man/soul who needed saved by the Messiah. And in that, we are all similar to Adam, all types of Adam....yet none of us are types of Christ.




1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1 Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

They were baptized unto Moses because he was the type, but now we are to be baptized unto Christ.


Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?



Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses

This below is a side comment on the above but does not change the focus going to Moses.

(even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression)--this is a parenthetical statement and should not distract the reader from the actual subject.

who is the figure of him that was to come. <---this speaks back to Moses.


It should be understood like this:


Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses...who is the figure of him that was to come.

Or this:


Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of THE ORIGINAL transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


If I said, "Jesus himself was baptised, the man who did that was John, and he was our savior and God's begotten son.
Why in the world would you think "he was our savior and God's begotten son" referred to John just because his name appeared last?

Adam is never the subject here, he is only mentioned because of his sin and the death that followed, but something happened when Moses came to be that changed things in a similar way (similar as in a type, figure, TUPOS) that happened when Christ came and died for us. What Moses and what Christ accomplished affected how death affects us. If you don't get that from the verse you are missing the entire point.



4872

04872 Mosheh {mo-sheh'}

from 04871; TWOT - 1254; n pr m

AV - Moses 766; 766

Moses = "drawn"
1) the prophet and lawgiver, leader of the exodus


Moses lead Israel in the exodus out of bondage, and now Christ leads us out of the bondage of eternal death.




Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Interesting that in the eternity the song of Moses AND the song of Christ are sung. That is how important Moses was in God's plan and how closely Moses is related to Jesus. Moses was a kind of messiah to the Israelites. God spoke his words to Moses and Moses spoke the word of God to the people just as Christ would do in the NT. Moses was the OT version of the Word of God! Adam is not a kind of messiah in any sense but Moses fits the pre-mold of a messiah (a type or figure of Christ) in many many ways.

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Here Paul refers to Gods law as "Moses' law"...and we all know that Christ fulfilled the law.


Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Joh_5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Moses wrote of Christ!





Acts 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


Moses signifies the first covenant, while Christ signifies the second.


Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Hebrews 3:2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
Hebrews 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
Hebrews 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
Hebrews 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.




Again, Christ and Moses being compared.

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deu 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
Deu 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.


Moses as well as God are saying the Messiah would be like Moses and then fast forward to the NT and we have Moses mentioned in the same sentence where *someone* had been a figure of Christ in his life.

Act_3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.


"like unto me"

Moses declares that Jesus would be "like unto me" meaning Jesus would be like Moses!

Moses is saying that he is the figure of the Christ to come. It could not be easier.



Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.



Deuteronomy 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;


Moses was speaking of Christ and comparing himself to Christ.


Any decent commentary will second that this future prophet spoken of by Moses, who would be like Moses, was actually Christ, solidifying the Tudos between them.



John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.


And lastly:


Exodus 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

Moses went to God and atoned for the sins of the people, just as Christ would do, but not on as grand of a scale.


Moses was the figure of Christ to come, not Adam.


Eastons:

My dear..... that is not hermeneutics. It is not exegesis. It's just opinion, mewling and kerfuffle.
Pleading and arguing that God is "too nice" to send people to eternal punishment in hell.....does the unredeemed a grave disservice. But more importantly it is not Scripturally supported.

It also betrays a woefully inadequate view of sin. It also undermines the utterly holy nature of God, His totalitarian sovereignty and His justice.

When Jesus warns men to beware of Gehenna fire.......THAT is what we had better preach or else.

Sources ,other than the word of God should be scripturally vetted,not just copied and pasted like a cyclone.

I use only the Word,a bible /and Webster's dictionary.
If what someone post is NOT scripturally sound,its for the rubbish heap!

We have a couple of posters with no problem spewing out the vain thoughts of God denying unbelieving unredeemed philosophers. As if THEIR words are gospel.

Absolutely abhorrent and preposterous. Does not belong on this message board let me say that much.

That's good stuff (Your 3 posts posts about Moses) but I thought of some scriptures that might help enhance your overall thesis.

Check these:
Hebrews 3:1-6
Hebrews 9:11-28
Hebrews 10:28

No argument against annihilation...
If the wages of sin is death..... We need salvation and the Gospel is salvation explained. The Bible doesn't tell us everything but it has enough to know that there will be a final destruction of all sin and suffering, and death will be no more. If everyone that sinned were to be annihilated then the gospel would not exist but because the gospel does exist and we do have Jesus we can escape the annihilation by faith.
There is no life in death and the unsaved will face death (annihilation).

I don't know what you are CV5--or the rest of you. But you sound much more like a Pharisee than a Christian--you actually sound very dark. You've shown no light at all in your posts--and to call Magenta's post an opinion is just flat out nonsense--again--you argue not with rational arguments but with attacks and outright nonsense.

A god complex is an unshakable belief characterized by consistently inflated feelings of personal ability, privilege, or infallibility. A person with a god complex may refuse to admit the possibility of their error or failure, even in the face of irrefutable evidence,

Yeah have that in my study already but thanks.

I might work some of in but it's fairly lengthy.


That one I can't use.

everlasting punishment.........

Many of the original words imply a punishment that is everlasting... Look up the words in the original.

It does not mean you need to be alive and suffering, God will punish the evil forever but they will not be suffering for ever. That is unjust. The God that i worship is a just God.

Can you see how the everlasting aspect is the result,, Death forever, Hell (death, grave) forever, annihilation forever.

If we are given life forever, and never die we are given eternal life which is only given to the saved.

If you really want to be true to yourself and understand this subject research the origin of it.

Very clear that eternal torment was a Pagan teaching that the Catholic church adopted to control the people.

When will the lost be cast into hellfire?
“So it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire” (Matthew 13:40–42).
“The word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day” (John 12:48).

The lost will be cast into hellfire at the great judgment at the end of the world—not when they die. God would not punish a person in fire until his or her case was tried and decided in court at the end of the world. Does it make sense that God would burn a murderer who died 5,000 years ago 5,000 years longer than a murderer who dies today and deserves the same punishment for the same sin? (Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?)

Lady.......I just mopped the floor with your annihilation heresy. It wasn't even close.
As it should be.....

“The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation” (John 5:28, 29).
“That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? … Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb” (Job 21:30, 32 KJV).

The Bible is specific. Both the unsaved and the saved who have died are in their graves “sleeping” until the resurrection day.

“The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).
“Sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death” (James 1:15).
“God … gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

The wages for (or the result of) sin is death, not everlasting life in hellfire. The wicked “perish,” or receive “death.” The righteous receive “everlasting life.”

You did no such thing. Eternal torture has been thorough debunked. You are just in denial not to mention you ignore 95 percent of scriptures posted that prove Annihilation.