Not By Works

I agree God knows all that is going to happen but He does not cause it to happen. But you said salvation was completed before time began >>Salvation was ACCOMPLISHED IN FULL, by our ALL KNOWING GOD, BEFORE TIME BEGAN.<< So that prompted the questions. If as you say, salvation was accomplished in full before time began, then why the cross? Why did Christ Jesus have to suffer for something that was already accomplished. And why the requirement for faith?

Saying what you believe does not deal with the questions i posed. Perhaps you could address those for me?

If we did not have faith. God would know. And we would not be saved before time, now would we

If we were saved before time then as I said why the cross and why faith? Neither would be required as all those to be saved are already saved according to you.
You say >>If we did not have faith. God would know. And we would not be saved before time, now would we<<. But can you not see the error in your thinking. By you, God would have saved us before we had faith or even needed faith because we would not exist at the time would we.

Well, obviously I have not read all 7,609 pages of this thread, but I’m willing to say that I agree. Good deeds are wonderful, but they don’t save us. However, once we are saved and become new creations in Christ, the good works should follow—all to glorify Him and the changes He has made in our hearts and so that we can witness to others about the hope we have found in Christ. It’s all about being able to say, “Look what God has done!”

Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

We are saved BASED on the cross (grace) through faith.

That is what God sees.

without the cross. No one could be saved.

I agree without the cross no one would be saved, but you have people saved long before the cross, long before anything at all. So I ask the same question, under your view of when salvation takes place why the cross and why faith?

Chester, my living the christian life was not "tacked" on as you put it. If you read that sentence you would have understood it to say "as a result of our salvation" we would most certainly enter into that life style because we are "saved" and there is my point.

Well the Lord already knows if we are sincere whenever we publicly accept Him and go through the process of baptism. So, He knows who is truly asking for salvation and who is (Pharisees) doing such for show. There are those just like that group who think because they go through the motions, all is well.

As for doubt, doesn't Satan love it whenever we have doubts? But that is the "flesh" side of us whenever doubts come and the Lord understands that. God knows the "heart" while man looks to the outward part. I would be willing to say there are times whenever any Christian has had those "doubtful" moments. So, what do we Christians do? We do "look" to and "trust" the Lord Jesus Christ. We accept salvation in trust and faith and the rest is up to Him

OMNIPRESENT does not mean that GOD is a created being traveling through TIME, like you and I are. HE IS THE CREATOR OF TIME ITSELF.

HE IS ETERNAL, time is not relevant to GOD, like us. You have a very small idea of who and what GOD really is. HE IS MUCH BIGGER than you think. You have drug down to Earth time line, like HE is a created being.



Isaiah 46:8-13 (NRSV)
8 Remember this and consider, recall it to mind, you transgressors,
9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, "My purpose shall stand, and I will fulfill my intention,"
11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man for my purpose from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have planned, and I will do it.
12 Listen to me, you stubborn of heart, you who are far from deliverance:
13 I bring near my deliverance, it is not far off, and my salvation will not tarry; I will put salvation in Zion, for Israel my glory.


King David and Peter understood this:


Psalm 90:4 (NCV)
4 To you, a thousand years is like the passing of a day, or like a few hours in the night.

2 Peter 3:8-10 (ESV)
8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.





Matthew 24:27 (NCV)
27 When the Son of Man comes, HE will be seen by everyone, like lightning flashing from the east to the west.

Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
13 “So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come.

I wish Jesus would come soon and take me with him. I long to come into his arms and see his smile.

Not really, if you do not count the REPEAT questions, from people, who do not like to read the history of this thread. We have answered the same questions in the same way, over, and over, and over again.

That is a GOOD SIGN that you will be me, when the CALL to go to heaven for the Wedding of the Lamb HAPPENS.

Counterfeit Christians do not long for HIM to come soon.

HOW DO YOU THINK OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS WERE SAVED ? ? ?


Malachi 3:6-7 (HCSB)
6 “Because I, Yahweh, have not changed,
you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.


Therefore that they have been saved the SAME way AS WE HAVE.

By FAITH, and that is not of your own, IT IS A GIFT OF GOD.

Ephesians 2:6-9 (HCSB)
6 Together with Christ Jesus He also raised us up and seated us in the heavens,
7 so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace through ⌊His⌋ kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
9 not from works, so that no one can boast.


Old Testament Saints believed: GOD would send the Messiah to pay for their Sins.

New Testament Saints believe: GOD did send the Messiah to pay for our Sins.


That is the exact same FAITH, the Faith of Abraham.

You are the one that says salvation was completed before time began. That puts your view in human time. So once again if we were all saved before time began then why the cross or faith. There is a vast difference between God knowing who would be saved and someone being saved. Can you not see that?

I have God in his omniscience predestining people to savation he has seen already recieve him in faith

again. God is outside of time, He knows the begining from the end. And he knew me before time began.

Me too!

I am not questioning how people are saved, it is through faith in Christ Jesus {Messiah}. And note they were saved in time not before creation as you have said.
Could you clarify for me which one do you mean is the gift of God?
Salvation or Faith

You use the words "predestining people to salvation". Are you saying that God has picked out all those that will be saved or do you mean that He knows who will freely chose to trust in His son?
That is a subtle difference but an important one.

Better read the WHOLE BIBLE, it all is GOD's Word.

Leviticus 26:14-18 (NCV)
14 “ ’But if you do not obey me and keep all my commands,
15 and if you turn away from my rules and hate my laws, refusing to obey all my commands, you have broken our agreement.
16 As a result, I will do this to you: I will cause terrible things to happen to you. I will cause you to have disease and fever that will destroy your eyes and slowly kill you. You will not have success when you plant your seed, and your enemy will eat your crops.
17 I will be against you, and your enemies will defeat you. These people who hate you will rule over you, and you will run away even when no one is chasing you.
18 “ ’If after all this you still do not obey me, I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

Jeremiah 11:23 (NCV)
23 No one from the city of Anathoth will be left alive, because I will cause a disaster to happen to them that year.“

Jeremiah 33:25-26 (NCV)
25 This is what the LORD says: “If I had not made my agreement with day and night, and if I had not made the laws for the sky and earth,
26 only then would I turn away from Jacob’s descendants. And only then would I not let the descendants of David my servant rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But I will be kind to them and cause good things to happen to them again.“

Ezekiel 36:33 (NCV)
33 “ ’This is what the Lord GOD says: This is what will happen on the day I cleanse you from all your sins: I will cause the cities to have people living in them again, and the destroyed places will be rebuilt.

Daniel 10:14 (ESV)
14 and came to make you understand what is to happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come.”

Genesis 32:9 (HCSB)
9 Then Jacob said, “God of my father Abraham and God of my father Isaac, the LORD who said to me, ‘Go back to your land and to your family, and I will cause you to prosper,’

Genesis 43:14 (HCSB)
14 May God Almighty cause the man to be merciful to you so that he will release your other brother and Benjamin to you. As for me, if I am deprived of my sons, then I am deprived.”

Deuteronomy 28:63 (HCSB)
63 Just as the LORD was glad to cause you to prosper and to multiply you, so He will also be glad to cause you to perish and to destroy you. You will be deported from the land you are entering to possess.

Deuteronomy 28:7 (HCSB)
7 “The LORD will cause the enemies who rise up against you to be defeated before you. They will march out against you from one direction but flee from you in seven directions.


There are LOTS MORE of those kind of VERSES where GOD will Cause you to Prosper or Perish, just to prove GOD is totally in control, and NOT YOU. It is obvious, you have made up a false GOD, that let's you play GOD, and believe you are in control of your own destiny.

Humble yourself, repent, and COME TO Let Him really be LORD OF YOUR LIFE.

Isaiah 46:8-13 (NRSV)
8 Remember this and consider, recall it to mind, you transgressors,
9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, "My purpose shall stand, and I will fulfill my intention,"
11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man for my purpose from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have planned, and I will do it.
12 Listen to me, you stubborn of heart, you who are far from deliverance:
13 I bring near my deliverance, it is not far off, and my salvation will not tarry; I will put salvation in Zion, for Israel my glory.

yup i can fully understand all this scripture and of cause when one truly seeks the lord and accepts the authority of the lord it is then the lord remembers you and you the lord.