Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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Your explanation? I posted verses directly from the Bible. They seem simple enough to understand so
go ahead and reconcile them, for us. What I posted references both faith and works, both seemingly required
for salvation and contradicting each other using your interpretation and doctrine. But, there is a way to reconcile
them
go ahead and reconcile them, for us. What I posted references both faith and works, both seemingly required
for salvation and contradicting each other using your interpretation and doctrine. But, there is a way to reconcile
them
Or go away? Hmmm - are you the one in charge of who goes away and who stays? I didn't know that.
Keep trying to reconcile those verses, the pieces may fall into place for you sooner or later, and
no, it's not what you said. According to you, in James, works had to be added by themselves to themselves, since they were
just "easy believers", (whatever that might mean). The logical conclusion of your statement is that works are needed for salvation
"faith without works is dead" - so, if we're going to claim one, we would have to provide both, which would then become impossible
to achieve, and most definitely, unbiblical. Salvation is a gift from God.
If you read the preceding verses in particular, and the Bible as a whole, you'll see that interpretation cannot be correct.
Think we're done with this discussion.
Keep trying to reconcile those verses, the pieces may fall into place for you sooner or later, and
no, it's not what you said. According to you, in James, works had to be added by themselves to themselves, since they were
just "easy believers", (whatever that might mean). The logical conclusion of your statement is that works are needed for salvation
"faith without works is dead" - so, if we're going to claim one, we would have to provide both, which would then become impossible
to achieve, and most definitely, unbiblical. Salvation is a gift from God.
If you read the preceding verses in particular, and the Bible as a whole, you'll see that interpretation cannot be correct.
Think we're done with this discussion.
E
Once again you show how utterly incapable you are of reading what people say. You continue to twist their words and claim they are saying or have said they never intended or even came close to saying
It is obvious you are trained. Indoctrinated
You say what your church says, You go by what they tell you to say and what they tell you others believe. SO you can not sit down to have an honest conversation.
What you claimed I said here is false, It is not even close to what I said or intended to say.
You are incapable of having an honest discussion. SO yeah we are done with this conversation.
Until you can humble yourself and sit and actually listen to people. without trying to insert what yu think they are saying into the conversation. No one can have an honest discussion with you
It is obvious you are trained. Indoctrinated
You say what your church says, You go by what they tell you to say and what they tell you others believe. SO you can not sit down to have an honest conversation.
What you claimed I said here is false, It is not even close to what I said or intended to say.
You are incapable of having an honest discussion. SO yeah we are done with this conversation.
Until you can humble yourself and sit and actually listen to people. without trying to insert what yu think they are saying into the conversation. No one can have an honest discussion with you
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By grace is always of faith which contrary to the Law which is of works. V.16 is being contrasted in v15, hence Apostle Paul has made the distinction between the two. He said thus in Romans 11:6 and faith isn't work but it works when you believe on him.
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Romans 4:24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Romans 4:24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
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OP: "Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation...false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner."?
Ok. NOT "foreseen," BUT, What Is Crystal Clear, According To The Scriptures, Is God's FOREKNOWLEDGE!:
Rom 8:29 "For whom HE DID FOREKNOW, He also did predestinate to be conformed
to the image of His SON, that HE might be the firstborn among many brethren."
Rom 8:30 "Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom
He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified."
+
2Ti 2:19 "Nevertheless The Foundation of God Standeth Sure,
Having THIS SEAL, The LORD Knoweth them that Are HIS...." {Always?}:
Well, look at The OPPOSITE!:
"Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth The Will of My Father which is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils? and in Thy Name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER Knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." (Mat_7:21-23)
What? God FOREKNEW who would "meet HIS Condition of believing" to be saved?
Conditional election! Now, That's The God I know, love, and serve!!
----------------------------
(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship {Romans – Philemon}, For ALL, today?)
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God’s Simple Will!
Ok. NOT "foreseen," BUT, What Is Crystal Clear, According To The Scriptures, Is God's FOREKNOWLEDGE!:
Rom 8:29 "For whom HE DID FOREKNOW, He also did predestinate to be conformed
to the image of His SON, that HE might be the firstborn among many brethren."
Rom 8:30 "Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom
He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified."
+
2Ti 2:19 "Nevertheless The Foundation of God Standeth Sure,
Having THIS SEAL, The LORD Knoweth them that Are HIS...." {Always?}:
Well, look at The OPPOSITE!:
"Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth The Will of My Father which is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils? and in Thy Name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER Knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." (Mat_7:21-23)
What? God FOREKNEW who would "meet HIS Condition of believing" to be saved?
Conditional election! Now, That's The God I know, love, and serve!!
----------------------------
(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship {Romans – Philemon}, For ALL, today?)
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God’s Simple Will!
This isn't "foreknowledge". It is omniscience.
It is important to understand this passage. In v.21 the crowd were begging to get into the kingdom. What were they basing their request on? Their own works, v.22. Jesus didn't refute their claims, or deny them. What He did was tell them that He never knew them in v.23. This proves that they NEVER believed in Him, which means trusting in His work on the cross on their behalf.
And John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 tell us that it is those who "have not believed" who will be condemned.
In Eph 1:4, that election is unconditional. The "us" is defined by Paul in v.19 as "us who believe". Therefore, 1:4 says that God has chosen ALL believers to be holy and blameless.
Election of believers to service is unconditional. He chooses all believers.
However not all elections are unconditional. In the case of Judas, Jesus knew exactly why He chose him.
John 6:70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
Jesus chose Judas because He knew Judas would betray Him.
It is important to understand this passage. In v.21 the crowd were begging to get into the kingdom. What were they basing their request on? Their own works, v.22. Jesus didn't refute their claims, or deny them. What He did was tell them that He never knew them in v.23. This proves that they NEVER believed in Him, which means trusting in His work on the cross on their behalf.
And John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 tell us that it is those who "have not believed" who will be condemned.
In Eph 1:4, that election is unconditional. The "us" is defined by Paul in v.19 as "us who believe". Therefore, 1:4 says that God has chosen ALL believers to be holy and blameless.
Election of believers to service is unconditional. He chooses all believers.
However not all elections are unconditional. In the case of Judas, Jesus knew exactly why He chose him.
John 6:70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
Jesus chose Judas because He knew Judas would betray Him.
Again, faith is inherent in all mankind. Everyone has faith. The issue is not whether a person has faith. The issue is in Whom does a person place his/her faith.
In this regard, faith is vital to us throughout the whole span of our life. Faith is what God placed within mankind in order that we recognize when God comes a-knocking (and God does reveal Himself to all mankind):
Romans 1:20-21 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Some people place their faith in the lie of satan and when the truth of God’s Word is revealed to them, they reject God’s Truth. Not because they do not have faith, but because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18). They reject God even though God has provided each and every person who has ever lived with that which is needed (faith) to not reject Him. Therefore, those who reject are without excuse (Rom 1:20).
On the other hand, Abraham did not reject. Abraham placed his faith in God:
Romans 4:
18 Who [Abraham] against hope believed in hope, that he [Abraham] might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
The promise is sure:
Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Through the righteousness of faith, the promise is wholly by God’s grace (Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace – Rom 4:16) … not through the law. If the promise was to Abraham's seed through the law, then only Jews would receive the promise. Since the promise is through the righteousness of faith, then both Jews and gentiles receive the promise through the righteousness of faith by the grace of God.
The promise is sure. Read the verses just before vs 16:
Romans 4:
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all
Verse 13 makes it clear that the promise was not given through the law but through the righteousness of faith. Therefore, both Jews and gentiles can partake of the promise through faith.
Verse 14 makes clear that if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect. The reason the promise is made of none effect and faith is made void if the works of the law result in heirship is because of what is written in Rom 4:4 (Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt). Because the promise is through the righteousness of faith (vs 13), then it is by grace (vs 16).
Verse 16 affirms what is written in vs 13. The promise is available not to that only which is of the law (Jews) but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham (both Jews and gentiles). Both Jew and gentile must come to God through faith. If through faith, then it is by grace.
You might want to go back and read Genesis where God made promise to Abraham. God reiterated His promise to Abraham many times (Gen 12:7, Gen 13:14-17, Gen 15:7, Gen 15:18, Gen 17:8). God also reiterated the promise to Isaac (Gen 26:3-5) and to Jacob (Gen 28:13-15).
In this regard, faith is vital to us throughout the whole span of our life. Faith is what God placed within mankind in order that we recognize when God comes a-knocking (and God does reveal Himself to all mankind):
Romans 1:20-21 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Some people place their faith in the lie of satan and when the truth of God’s Word is revealed to them, they reject God’s Truth. Not because they do not have faith, but because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18). They reject God even though God has provided each and every person who has ever lived with that which is needed (faith) to not reject Him. Therefore, those who reject are without excuse (Rom 1:20).
On the other hand, Abraham did not reject. Abraham placed his faith in God:
Romans 4:
18 Who [Abraham] against hope believed in hope, that he [Abraham] might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
The promise is sure:
Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Through the righteousness of faith, the promise is wholly by God’s grace (Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace – Rom 4:16) … not through the law. If the promise was to Abraham's seed through the law, then only Jews would receive the promise. Since the promise is through the righteousness of faith, then both Jews and gentiles receive the promise through the righteousness of faith by the grace of God.
The promise is sure. Read the verses just before vs 16:
Romans 4:
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all
Verse 13 makes it clear that the promise was not given through the law but through the righteousness of faith. Therefore, both Jews and gentiles can partake of the promise through faith.
Verse 14 makes clear that if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect. The reason the promise is made of none effect and faith is made void if the works of the law result in heirship is because of what is written in Rom 4:4 (Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt). Because the promise is through the righteousness of faith (vs 13), then it is by grace (vs 16).
Verse 16 affirms what is written in vs 13. The promise is available not to that only which is of the law (Jews) but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham (both Jews and gentiles). Both Jew and gentile must come to God through faith. If through faith, then it is by grace.
You might want to go back and read Genesis where God made promise to Abraham. God reiterated His promise to Abraham many times (Gen 12:7, Gen 13:14-17, Gen 15:7, Gen 15:18, Gen 17:8). God also reiterated the promise to Isaac (Gen 26:3-5) and to Jacob (Gen 28:13-15).
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Disagree. I don't find faith mentioned in Romans 1:20 - 21. True faith is not given to everyone. If it was, no one would/could ever reject Christ because the faith of Christ would already be a part of them. But, we know that not to be the case.
[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Where did you find that statement within the Bible? Again, I find no mention of faith in that verse.
No. The promise, as the verse tells us, is ONLY to the SEED, not to everyone. Since that is so, it (the promise) must then ONLY be SURE to the SEED - only to those who are Christ's, but not everyone
[Gal 3:29 KJV]
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Faith is righteousness, and righteousness is faith - but it God's (Christ's) faith, not ours . We cannot have faith without also being saved. Faith was reckoned to Abraham by God. Abraham could not/would not reject that which was placed within him by God. When faith was reckoned to him, as part of faith, Abraham also received righteousness.
[Rom 4:9 KJV]
9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
[Rom 3:22 KJV]
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
God placed His faith within Abraham. Abraham did not place faith within himself. Faith is righteousness and righteousness is faith. If we have one, then we also must have the other. And if we have them, then we have been saved - that's is how salvation is demonstrated. to us - that we have been given faith
[Rom 3:3 KJV]
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
[Rom 4:9 KJV]
9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Faith, and therefore righteousness, was imputed TO Abram. We know beyond question, that we cannot give ourselves righteousness. It must come as a gift from God
[Rom 4:13 KJV]
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
[Rom 3:22 KJV]
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[Rom 10:6 KJV]
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]
[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Only by faith given as a gift, but not of them.
The faith of Abraham (as you call it) was actually God's faith, given as a gift, to Abraham. His (Abraham's) faith did not originate from/by him. Had it, then his righteousness would have also have had to come from Abraham, and that could not be possible. Faith is righteousness, righteousness is faith. We (including Abraham) have no righteousness of ourselves.
[Rom 3:22 KJV]
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
The promise is sure to all who are of the seed, but ONLY to those of the seed and not to everyone.
Gal 3:29 informs us clearly as to whom those are: only those who belong to Christ- those whom God has elected to such.
Gal 3:29 also informs they are "heirs according to the promise". If heirs, then the testator of the will (Christ), had specifically
and individually, chosen them, to be heirs. And, as with any will and testament, heirs are chosen by the testator, and the testator alone. After the testator's death, the terms of the will, to include its heirs, are set and cannot be changed.
[Gal 3:29 KJV]
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Where did you find that statement within the Bible? Again, I find no mention of faith in that verse.
No. The promise, as the verse tells us, is ONLY to the SEED, not to everyone. Since that is so, it (the promise) must then ONLY be SURE to the SEED - only to those who are Christ's, but not everyone
[Gal 3:29 KJV]
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Faith is righteousness, and righteousness is faith - but it God's (Christ's) faith, not ours . We cannot have faith without also being saved. Faith was reckoned to Abraham by God. Abraham could not/would not reject that which was placed within him by God. When faith was reckoned to him, as part of faith, Abraham also received righteousness.
[Rom 4:9 KJV]
9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
[Rom 3:22 KJV]
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
God placed His faith within Abraham. Abraham did not place faith within himself. Faith is righteousness and righteousness is faith. If we have one, then we also must have the other. And if we have them, then we have been saved - that's is how salvation is demonstrated. to us - that we have been given faith
[Rom 3:3 KJV]
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
[Rom 4:9 KJV]
9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Faith, and therefore righteousness, was imputed TO Abram. We know beyond question, that we cannot give ourselves righteousness. It must come as a gift from God
[Rom 4:13 KJV]
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
[Rom 3:22 KJV]
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[Rom 10:6 KJV]
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]
[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Only by faith given as a gift, but not of them.
The faith of Abraham (as you call it) was actually God's faith, given as a gift, to Abraham. His (Abraham's) faith did not originate from/by him. Had it, then his righteousness would have also have had to come from Abraham, and that could not be possible. Faith is righteousness, righteousness is faith. We (including Abraham) have no righteousness of ourselves.
[Rom 3:22 KJV]
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
The promise is sure to all who are of the seed, but ONLY to those of the seed and not to everyone.
Gal 3:29 informs us clearly as to whom those are: only those who belong to Christ- those whom God has elected to such.
Gal 3:29 also informs they are "heirs according to the promise". If heirs, then the testator of the will (Christ), had specifically
and individually, chosen them, to be heirs. And, as with any will and testament, heirs are chosen by the testator, and the testator alone. After the testator's death, the terms of the will, to include its heirs, are set and cannot be changed.
[Gal 3:29 KJV]
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
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reneweddaybyday said:
Again, faith is inherent in all mankind. Everyone has faith. The issue is not whether a person has faith. The issue is in Whom does a person place his/her faith.
Why should it be? Why would God make Himself and His attributes "plain to see" IF He knew that no one could believe what they see??
That sure doesn't make sense. rdbd said it exactly right. "Faith is inherent in all mankind." And we see this all the time. People believe in all kinds of things. Faith isn't accidental. No one trusts in something by accident. It's INTENTIONAL. It's a choice.
Like saying to someone, "Take my word for this". That's a choice. And that is basically what God has said to the human race. He not only revealed Himself and His divine power and attributes to everyone, He gave His Word as well.
These things create a choice. Man either believes that God exists from what he/she observes in creation, or not. And man either believes what the Bible says, or he/she does not. It's all about choice. Just don't tell the Calvinists.
These kind of "Calvinist talking points" cannot be found in Scripture. It's just someone's imagination that they patented and sold.
It is this kind of faulty understanding of what "faith" is that leads one to this kind of a conclusion.
People face choices all the time regarding what to believe or not. Especially during election cycles and listening to all the candidates.
But Calvinists come up with this phony idea that "true faith" or "saving faith" is something kind of mystical. Something 'speshul'. But it isn't.
Believing in Christ for salvation is simply trusting that Jesus is the Son of God, and that trusting what He did on your behalf on the cross will result in being saved. There's no magic or mystic in saving faith. It is simply trusting Jesus to save you.
That is NOT what the Bible says about faith or "believing".
Gen 15:6 - Abram believed the LORD, and He credited it to him as righteousness.
Faith is NOT 'righteousness'. Faith is credited AS righteousness. I hope you are able to see the difference. You equated the 2, and they are NOT equated.
Gen 15:6 refutes this statement. It was Abraham who believed. And it was God who credited it (his faith) AS righteousness.
This is an absurd statement. No one "places faith within" themselves. This just shows how much you do NOT understand what faith even is.
Faith is the result of a choice, though no Calvinist would accept that.
Repeating this mantra will NEVER make it true. No matter how many times it's repeated.
Once again, Gen 15:6 refutes this comment. Nowhere in the Bible is "faith imputed" to anyone. You are sorely misreading Gen 15:6.
This is true, and the reason it is true is because of what Gen 15:6 says. Man believes from his own heart (Rom 10:10) and God imputes THAT FAITH AS AS AS AS AS righteousness.
Nope. Rom 10:10 says believing comes from one's own heart. It's a choice, a decision to trust.
You have made many of these kind of claims, and ALL without any Scripture that says what you presume.
Prove this from Scripture. You know, by quoting a verse that SAYS what you claim here.
Again, this just shows how confused you are about what faith is and what "credited AS AS AS AS righteousness" means.
lol. It STILL doesn't make this true. Even this 3rd time.
This is correct. That is PRECISELY WHY God IMPUTES His righteousness to those who "believe from their own heart". Gen 15:6
Again, faith is inherent in all mankind. Everyone has faith. The issue is not whether a person has faith. The issue is in Whom does a person place his/her faith.
Why should it be? Why would God make Himself and His attributes "plain to see" IF He knew that no one could believe what they see??
That sure doesn't make sense. rdbd said it exactly right. "Faith is inherent in all mankind." And we see this all the time. People believe in all kinds of things. Faith isn't accidental. No one trusts in something by accident. It's INTENTIONAL. It's a choice.
Like saying to someone, "Take my word for this". That's a choice. And that is basically what God has said to the human race. He not only revealed Himself and His divine power and attributes to everyone, He gave His Word as well.
These things create a choice. Man either believes that God exists from what he/she observes in creation, or not. And man either believes what the Bible says, or he/she does not. It's all about choice. Just don't tell the Calvinists.
These kind of "Calvinist talking points" cannot be found in Scripture. It's just someone's imagination that they patented and sold.
It is this kind of faulty understanding of what "faith" is that leads one to this kind of a conclusion.
People face choices all the time regarding what to believe or not. Especially during election cycles and listening to all the candidates.
But Calvinists come up with this phony idea that "true faith" or "saving faith" is something kind of mystical. Something 'speshul'. But it isn't.
Believing in Christ for salvation is simply trusting that Jesus is the Son of God, and that trusting what He did on your behalf on the cross will result in being saved. There's no magic or mystic in saving faith. It is simply trusting Jesus to save you.
That is NOT what the Bible says about faith or "believing".
Gen 15:6 - Abram believed the LORD, and He credited it to him as righteousness.
Faith is NOT 'righteousness'. Faith is credited AS righteousness. I hope you are able to see the difference. You equated the 2, and they are NOT equated.
Gen 15:6 refutes this statement. It was Abraham who believed. And it was God who credited it (his faith) AS righteousness.
This is an absurd statement. No one "places faith within" themselves. This just shows how much you do NOT understand what faith even is.
Faith is the result of a choice, though no Calvinist would accept that.
Repeating this mantra will NEVER make it true. No matter how many times it's repeated.
Once again, Gen 15:6 refutes this comment. Nowhere in the Bible is "faith imputed" to anyone. You are sorely misreading Gen 15:6.
This is true, and the reason it is true is because of what Gen 15:6 says. Man believes from his own heart (Rom 10:10) and God imputes THAT FAITH AS AS AS AS AS righteousness.
Nope. Rom 10:10 says believing comes from one's own heart. It's a choice, a decision to trust.
You have made many of these kind of claims, and ALL without any Scripture that says what you presume.
Prove this from Scripture. You know, by quoting a verse that SAYS what you claim here.
Again, this just shows how confused you are about what faith is and what "credited AS AS AS AS righteousness" means.
lol. It STILL doesn't make this true. Even this 3rd time.
This is correct. That is PRECISELY WHY God IMPUTES His righteousness to those who "believe from their own heart". Gen 15:6
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[#1 response to rogerg Post #1593]
Not true that "no one would/could ever reject Christ". Some take that seed of faith which God placed within each and every one of us in order for us to recognize Him and/or His Truth and reject Him.
Look at the verses just before Rom 1:20 – 21:
Romans 1:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein [the gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. The word “believeth” is the Greek word pisteuó, which is the verb form of the Greek word pístis (faith).
In these verses we have revealed that those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness when the gospel is preached, receive the gift of God’s grace (salvation). And it is the gospel which reveals the righteousness of God. The righteousness of God is received by faith. The just (justified ones) shall live by faith.
The reason mankind can believe is because faith is inherent within mankind (all mankind).
Just as mankind has been given intellect which allows mankind to think, mankind has been given faith which allows mankind to believe.
However, mankind can use his/her faith to believe a lie … or mankind can suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) when the gospel is revealed. Those who suppress will not receive the righteousness of God … not because they do not have faith, but because they suppressed the truth and their faith did not result in the righteousness of God being bestowed upon them.
Now read Rom 1:19-21 and see God’s wrath revealed against those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness:
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [suppress] the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
The reason they are without excuse (vs 20) is because God has provided what is needed (faith) for mankind to believe the gospel. Mankind must actively suppress the truth in unrighteousness in order to not believe, which is why they are without excuse.
Under your scenario, those who find themselves facing the lake of fire have an excuse because God has withheld from them what was needed (faith).
If God gives you faith so that you escape the lake of fire, but withholds faith from me, I have an excuse to not be relegated to the lake of fire.
We have been through these verses before, rogerg.
The word "of" does not appear in the text:
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith
First example of a person placing faith in the lie of satan:
Genesis 3:4-5 is the lie of satan.
Genesis 3:6 is the result of Eve believing the lie.
First example of man rejecting God even though God provided what was needed to be accepted:
Genesis 4:6-7.
Genesis 4:8 is the result of Cain rejecting God … Cain murdered Abel
Right … ignore context … sheesh!!!
Do you even know what promise is being spoken of in Rom 4:16?
READ THE CONTEXT … sheesh!!!
Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Through the righteousness of faith, the promise is wholly by God’s grace (Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace – Rom 4:16) … not through the law. If the promise was to Abraham's seed through the law, then only Jews would receive the promise. Additionally, if the promise was through the law, then the reward would not be by grace, the reward would be a debt owed (Rom 4:4). Since the promise is through the righteousness of faith, then both Jews and gentiles receive the promise through the righteousness of faith by the grace of God.
nope.
Faith = Greek word pistis (Strong’s 4102) from 3982 peithô "persuade, be persuaded"
Righteousness = Greek word dikaiosuné (Strong’s 1343) from 1349 díkē, "a judicial verdict"
As faith is inherent within mankind and it is God Who created, formed, made mankind, then yes God has imparted to mankind faith.
Mankind then is provided with all that is needed in order to respond to God when God reveals Himself.
When mankind responds based upon that faith God has imparted to him/her, salvation is then given as a gift from God:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
By grace (God’s divine favor) we are saved (God rescues from the penalty and power of sin and into His provisions for us) through faith (noun – the faith God placed within mankind).
Those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness are saved through faith by God’s grace.
I know you have to believe this because you believe God parses out faith to some … I believe your term for these folks is “the elect” … and withholds faith from others.
[continued below]
Not true that "no one would/could ever reject Christ". Some take that seed of faith which God placed within each and every one of us in order for us to recognize Him and/or His Truth and reject Him.
Look at the verses just before Rom 1:20 – 21:
Romans 1:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein [the gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. The word “believeth” is the Greek word pisteuó, which is the verb form of the Greek word pístis (faith).
In these verses we have revealed that those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness when the gospel is preached, receive the gift of God’s grace (salvation). And it is the gospel which reveals the righteousness of God. The righteousness of God is received by faith. The just (justified ones) shall live by faith.
The reason mankind can believe is because faith is inherent within mankind (all mankind).
Just as mankind has been given intellect which allows mankind to think, mankind has been given faith which allows mankind to believe.
However, mankind can use his/her faith to believe a lie … or mankind can suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) when the gospel is revealed. Those who suppress will not receive the righteousness of God … not because they do not have faith, but because they suppressed the truth and their faith did not result in the righteousness of God being bestowed upon them.
Now read Rom 1:19-21 and see God’s wrath revealed against those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness:
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [suppress] the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
The reason they are without excuse (vs 20) is because God has provided what is needed (faith) for mankind to believe the gospel. Mankind must actively suppress the truth in unrighteousness in order to not believe, which is why they are without excuse.
Under your scenario, those who find themselves facing the lake of fire have an excuse because God has withheld from them what was needed (faith).
If God gives you faith so that you escape the lake of fire, but withholds faith from me, I have an excuse to not be relegated to the lake of fire.
We have been through these verses before, rogerg.
The word "of" does not appear in the text:
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith
First example of a person placing faith in the lie of satan:
Genesis 3:4-5 is the lie of satan.
Genesis 3:6 is the result of Eve believing the lie.
First example of man rejecting God even though God provided what was needed to be accepted:
Genesis 4:6-7.
Genesis 4:8 is the result of Cain rejecting God … Cain murdered Abel
Right
… ignore context … sheesh!!!Do you even know what promise is being spoken of in Rom 4:16?
READ THE CONTEXT … sheesh!!!
Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Through the righteousness of faith, the promise is wholly by God’s grace (Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace – Rom 4:16) … not through the law. If the promise was to Abraham's seed through the law, then only Jews would receive the promise. Additionally, if the promise was through the law, then the reward would not be by grace, the reward would be a debt owed (Rom 4:4). Since the promise is through the righteousness of faith, then both Jews and gentiles receive the promise through the righteousness of faith by the grace of God.
nope.
Faith = Greek word pistis (Strong’s 4102) from 3982 peithô "persuade, be persuaded"
Righteousness = Greek word dikaiosuné (Strong’s 1343) from 1349 díkē, "a judicial verdict"
As faith is inherent within mankind and it is God Who created, formed, made mankind, then yes God has imparted to mankind faith.
Mankind then is provided with all that is needed in order to respond to God when God reveals Himself.
When mankind responds based upon that faith God has imparted to him/her, salvation is then given as a gift from God:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
By grace (God’s divine favor) we are saved (God rescues from the penalty and power of sin and into His provisions for us) through faith (noun – the faith God placed within mankind).
Those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness are saved through faith by God’s grace.
I know you have to believe this because you believe God parses out faith to some … I believe your term for these folks is “the elect” … and withholds faith from others.
[continued below]
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[#2 continued response to rogerg Post #1593]
According to Genesis 15:6 (the verse referred to in Rom 4:3), Abraham believed what God told him in Gen 15:4-5 and God counted Abraham’s faith for righteousness:
Genesis 15:
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him [Abraham], saying, This [Eliezer] shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he [God] brought him [Abraham] forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he [God] said unto him [Abraham], So shall thy seed be.
6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it to him [Abraham] for righteousness.
Righteousness was imputed (reckoned) to Abraham.
Not true. Abraham could have suppressed the truth in unrighteousness. However, Abraham did not suppress the truth and as a result, he became the father of many nations (Gen 17:4-5, Rom 4:17-18).
Rom 4:9 merely states that Abraham’s faith was reckoned for righteousness. Righteousness was not reckoned to Abraham based upon any "work" ... righteousness is solely through faith. Faith is not works (Rom 4:2-5).
Rom 3:22 tells us that the righteouness of God does not come through the work of the law. Righteousness from God is unto all and upon all them that believe.
Believing is the verb form of faith … just as thinking is the verb form of thought, which is part of the intellect God placed within mankind.
We are not in disagreement concerning this issue.
You disagree that God has given faith to all mankind and that mankind suppresses the truth in unrighteousness even though he/she has faith.
We have innumerable examples in Scripture of all mankind suppressing the truth in righteousness … even those we know were believers … and receiving the consequence of their unbelief. Moses did not enter the promised land (although God did show it to him – Deut 34:1-4) … David comes to mind … Jonah ended up in the belly of a whale.
nope. not true. Salvation is demonstrated to us by the sealing of the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1:12-13 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
We trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ after we heard the word of truth, the gospel of salvation. Then after we believed, we were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.
If we have righteousness, then we have salvation.
Salvation is by grace through faith.
Faith is increased (strengthened) by God. If we utilize faith in the manner God intended (by believing truth), God increases (strengthens) our faith and we become strong in faith.
On the other hand, those who do not utilize faith in the manner God intended (by suppressing the truth in unrighteousness), God increases (strengthens) unbelief by hardening the heart … even to the point where the conscience can be seared with a hot iron.
[continued below]
According to Genesis 15:6 (the verse referred to in Rom 4:3), Abraham believed what God told him in Gen 15:4-5 and God counted Abraham’s faith for righteousness:
Genesis 15:
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him [Abraham], saying, This [Eliezer] shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he [God] brought him [Abraham] forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he [God] said unto him [Abraham], So shall thy seed be.
6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it to him [Abraham] for righteousness.
Righteousness was imputed (reckoned) to Abraham.
Not true. Abraham could have suppressed the truth in unrighteousness. However, Abraham did not suppress the truth and as a result, he became the father of many nations (Gen 17:4-5, Rom 4:17-18).
Rom 4:9 merely states that Abraham’s faith was reckoned for righteousness. Righteousness was not reckoned to Abraham based upon any "work" ... righteousness is solely through faith. Faith is not works (Rom 4:2-5).
Rom 3:22 tells us that the righteouness of God does not come through the work of the law. Righteousness from God is unto all and upon all them that believe.
Believing is the verb form of faith … just as thinking is the verb form of thought, which is part of the intellect God placed within mankind.
We are not in disagreement concerning this issue.
You disagree that God has given faith to all mankind and that mankind suppresses the truth in unrighteousness even though he/she has faith.
We have innumerable examples in Scripture of all mankind suppressing the truth in righteousness … even those we know were believers … and receiving the consequence of their unbelief. Moses did not enter the promised land (although God did show it to him – Deut 34:1-4) … David comes to mind … Jonah ended up in the belly of a whale.
nope. not true. Salvation is demonstrated to us by the sealing of the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1:12-13 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
We trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ after we heard the word of truth, the gospel of salvation. Then after we believed, we were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.
If we have righteousness, then we have salvation.
Salvation is by grace through faith.
Faith is increased (strengthened) by God. If we utilize faith in the manner God intended (by believing truth), God increases (strengthens) our faith and we become strong in faith.
On the other hand, those who do not utilize faith in the manner God intended (by suppressing the truth in unrighteousness), God increases (strengthens) unbelief by hardening the heart … even to the point where the conscience can be seared with a hot iron.
[continued below]
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[#3 continued response to rogerg Post #1593]
The word “of” does not appear in the text.
The atheist, by faith, claims there is no God. Just because the atheist does not believe God exists, this does not equal God not existing. You know the atheist is incorrect in his faith. However, according to your dogma, God withholds faith from the atheist. At that point, the atheist has an excuse to not be cast into the lake of fire.
Righteousness was imputed to Abraham because Abraham believed (verb form of faith) God.
Faith is the noun form.
Believe/believing is the verb form.
All mankind believes something or someone. The difference between the believer and the unbeliever is that the believer believes Truth and God … the unbeliever suppresses the Truth in unrighteouosness … not because he/she does not have faith, but because he/she either believes satan's lies or because of his/her self-will (pride), which results in the unbeliever not having righteousness imputed to him/her.
Read Romans 3:22 again:
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
The red "of" do not appear in the text.
God’s righteousness is imputed to all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
All mankind has the ability to believe because all descendants of Adam have faith. God is the One Who created, formed, made mankind and God’s provision (faith) to all mankind was/is/will be sufficient for all mankind. The issue is dying to self ... submitting your own will to God's Will. Unbelievers continue in self-will.
Those who abuse what God has provided to inherit the promise do so by suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. They have no excuse (Rom 1:18-20).
Don’t know if you know this, but a beneficiary of a Will may disclaim his or her inheritance. That is exactly what unbelievers do ... Esau is an example that comes to mind and Esau later regretted having done so.
However, did you know God still gifted Esau with Mount Seir (Deut 2:5)? And when Esau left the land of Canaan to dwell in mount Seir he took with him much wealth ... between Jacob and Esau their wealth and possessions were more than that they might dwell together. The land could not bear them because of their cattle:
Genesis 36:
6 And Esau took his wives, and his sons, and his daughters, and all the persons of his house, and his cattle, and all his beasts, and all his substance, which he had got in the land of Canaan; and went into the country from the face of his brother Jacob.
7 For their [Jacob and Esau] riches were more than that they might dwell together; and the land wherein they were strangers could not bear them because of their cattle.
8 Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.
Deuteronomy 2:5 Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I [God] have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.
[End]
The word “of” does not appear in the text.
The atheist, by faith, claims there is no God. Just because the atheist does not believe God exists, this does not equal God not existing. You know the atheist is incorrect in his faith. However, according to your dogma, God withholds faith from the atheist. At that point, the atheist has an excuse to not be cast into the lake of fire.
Righteousness was imputed to Abraham because Abraham believed (verb form of faith) God.
Faith is the noun form.
Believe/believing is the verb form.
All mankind believes something or someone. The difference between the believer and the unbeliever is that the believer believes Truth and God … the unbeliever suppresses the Truth in unrighteouosness … not because he/she does not have faith, but because he/she either believes satan's lies or because of his/her self-will (pride), which results in the unbeliever not having righteousness imputed to him/her.
Read Romans 3:22 again:
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
The red "of" do not appear in the text.
God’s righteousness is imputed to all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
All mankind has the ability to believe because all descendants of Adam have faith. God is the One Who created, formed, made mankind and God’s provision (faith) to all mankind was/is/will be sufficient for all mankind. The issue is dying to self ... submitting your own will to God's Will. Unbelievers continue in self-will.
Those who abuse what God has provided to inherit the promise do so by suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. They have no excuse (Rom 1:18-20).
Don’t know if you know this, but a beneficiary of a Will may disclaim his or her inheritance. That is exactly what unbelievers do ... Esau is an example that comes to mind and Esau later regretted having done so.
However, did you know God still gifted Esau with Mount Seir (Deut 2:5)? And when Esau left the land of Canaan to dwell in mount Seir he took with him much wealth ... between Jacob and Esau their wealth and possessions were more than that they might dwell together. The land could not bear them because of their cattle:
Genesis 36:
6 And Esau took his wives, and his sons, and his daughters, and all the persons of his house, and his cattle, and all his beasts, and all his substance, which he had got in the land of Canaan; and went into the country from the face of his brother Jacob.
7 For their [Jacob and Esau] riches were more than that they might dwell together; and the land wherein they were strangers could not bear them because of their cattle.
8 Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.
Deuteronomy 2:5 Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I [God] have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.
[End]
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God does not place a seed of faith into someone. If they have faith, they have faith. How is it possible to have faith and not have faith at the same time? Faith is faith
Where do you see faith mentioned in those verses. They inform not of faith but of anti-faith
If someone is given faith, they have also been given the spirit of wisdom to understand the gospel of Christ. Those who haven't
been given faith and wisdom, can't.
see above reply
Where do you find that?
Look, this is getting to be tiresome and more trouble than it's worth (for both of us), so, until one of us has a change of heart,
why don't we terminate this discussion at this point?
Where do you see faith mentioned in those verses. They inform not of faith but of anti-faith
If someone is given faith, they have also been given the spirit of wisdom to understand the gospel of Christ. Those who haven't
been given faith and wisdom, can't.
see above reply
Where do you find that?
Look, this is getting to be tiresome and more trouble than it's worth (for both of us), so, until one of us has a change of heart,
why don't we terminate this discussion at this point?
I have never said what you claim.
I claim that all have faith; however, some place their faith in that which is not true.
Example:
Genesis 3:
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Eve believed the lie of satan. Eve was deceived ... Adam was not deceived (1 Tim 2:14), yet he also ate. The intimate relationship with God enjoyed by Adam and Eve was severed ... they were afraid and they hid from God (Gen 3:10).
Those who place their faith in God and/or in the Truth, the result is to reap the benefit of what God has promised.
Example:
Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering
Hebrews 11:4 tells us By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous. It was not the sacrifice through which Abel obtained witness that he was righteous ... it was through faith that Abel obtained witness that he was righteous.
Faith by hearing and hearing by word of God - Rom 10:17.
That is why I told you to read the context within which the verse sits in order to understand what it is that God wants us to understand (not what we understand through preconceived notions):
Romans 1:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
In verses 16-17 we have revealed that those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness when the gospel is preached, receive the gift of God’s grace (salvation). And it is the gospel which reveals the righteousness of God. The righteousness of God is received by faith. The just (justified ones) shall live by faith.
The reason mankind can believe is because faith is inherent within mankind (all mankind).
Just as mankind has been given intellect which allows mankind to think, mankind has been given faith which allows mankind to believe.
In verses 18-21 we have revealed that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (vs18) are without excuse (vs 20) because God has provided what is needed (faith) for mankind to believe the gospel. Mankind must actively suppress the truth in unrighteousness in order to not believe, which is why they are without excuse.
Under your scenario, those who find themselves facing the lake of fire have an excuse because God has withheld from them what was needed (faith).
Verse 19 tells us God has revealed Himself to them.
Verse 20 tells us God's eternal power and Godhead are clearly seen.
Verse 21 clearly states that they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. This is what resulted from suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. It is not that God did not reveal Himself ... or that they did not know God ... in fact, vs 21 states they knew God. These folks actively suppress the truth in unrighteousness, which is what renders them without excuse.
Here is what God says:
James 1:
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Here's a couple more ...
Proverbs 8:17 I [wisdom] love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me [God], and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
projecting onto me what you feel concerning this discussion (that it's "tiresome" and "more trouble than it's worth")?
the more accurate statement would be
I hope/pray that you will read the replies submitted by the believers here and allow God to work in your heart to bring understanding/increase. I know it is hard to let go of long-held beliefs; however, God promises to bring increase when His Word is planted/watered - 1 Corinthians 3:7 ... and many believers have participated in this thread and have given you good counsel and guidance.
I claim that all have faith; however, some place their faith in that which is not true.
Example:
Genesis 3:
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Eve believed the lie of satan. Eve was deceived ... Adam was not deceived (1 Tim 2:14), yet he also ate. The intimate relationship with God enjoyed by Adam and Eve was severed ... they were afraid and they hid from God (Gen 3:10).
Those who place their faith in God and/or in the Truth, the result is to reap the benefit of what God has promised.
Example:
Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering
Hebrews 11:4 tells us By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous. It was not the sacrifice through which Abel obtained witness that he was righteous ... it was through faith that Abel obtained witness that he was righteous.
Faith by hearing and hearing by word of God - Rom 10:17.
That is why I told you to read the context within which the verse sits in order to understand what it is that God wants us to understand (not what we understand through preconceived notions):
Romans 1:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
In verses 16-17 we have revealed that those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness when the gospel is preached, receive the gift of God’s grace (salvation). And it is the gospel which reveals the righteousness of God. The righteousness of God is received by faith. The just (justified ones) shall live by faith.
The reason mankind can believe is because faith is inherent within mankind (all mankind).
Just as mankind has been given intellect which allows mankind to think, mankind has been given faith which allows mankind to believe.
In verses 18-21 we have revealed that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (vs18) are without excuse (vs 20) because God has provided what is needed (faith) for mankind to believe the gospel. Mankind must actively suppress the truth in unrighteousness in order to not believe, which is why they are without excuse.
Under your scenario, those who find themselves facing the lake of fire have an excuse because God has withheld from them what was needed (faith).
Verse 19 tells us God has revealed Himself to them.
Verse 20 tells us God's eternal power and Godhead are clearly seen.
Verse 21 clearly states that they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. This is what resulted from suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. It is not that God did not reveal Himself ... or that they did not know God ... in fact, vs 21 states they knew God. These folks actively suppress the truth in unrighteousness, which is what renders them without excuse.
Here is what God says:
James 1:
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Here's a couple more ...
Proverbs 8:17 I [wisdom] love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me [God], and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
projecting onto me what you feel concerning this discussion (that it's "tiresome" and "more trouble than it's worth")?
the more accurate statement would be
"Look, this is getting to be tiresome and more trouble than it's worth (for me (rogerg) both of us)"
I hope/pray that you will read the replies submitted by the believers here and allow God to work in your heart to bring understanding/increase. I know it is hard to let go of long-held beliefs; however, God promises to bring increase when His Word is planted/watered - 1 Corinthians 3:7 ... and many believers have participated in this thread and have given you good counsel and guidance.
"Some take that seed of faith which God placed within each and every one of us in order for us to recognize Him and/or His Truth and reject Him.
How can that be? If God placed a seed of faith in all of us (which I definitely don't agree with), could it be neutral or against Christ. Wouldn't it be towards that which He wants us to have faith in? I dunno, your statement makes no sense to me.
Yes, I would agree that rogerg is getting tired of this, even if you're not. Everything that I believe to be germane to the discussion, I have already posted so to continue would be redundant. Besides, I don't think you're able to hear/understand what I post.
And, I have read the replies you speak of and at their core, they all come down to a belief in, and requirement for, works, even
if that work is a belief that is produced in-and-of themselves. I would suggest that anything regarding salvation that is not a fully and completely a free gift is a work, with no third alternative possible.
Everything that I post starts and ends with Christ and that He alone is the Savior in all ways possible with
nothing permitted from us for it. This is the rest that Christ places us within.
How can that be? If God placed a seed of faith in all of us (which I definitely don't agree with), could it be neutral or against Christ. Wouldn't it be towards that which He wants us to have faith in? I dunno, your statement makes no sense to me.
Yes, I would agree that rogerg is getting tired of this, even if you're not. Everything that I believe to be germane to the discussion, I have already posted so to continue would be redundant. Besides, I don't think you're able to hear/understand what I post.
And, I have read the replies you speak of and at their core, they all come down to a belief in, and requirement for, works, even
if that work is a belief that is produced in-and-of themselves. I would suggest that anything regarding salvation that is not a fully and completely a free gift is a work, with no third alternative possible.
Everything that I post starts and ends with Christ and that He alone is the Savior in all ways possible with
nothing permitted from us for it. This is the rest that Christ places us within.