What are Your Thoughts About Financially Independent Women?

My mom's side of the family is strongly of that pioneer stock. It's trickled down to the present due in part to religious conviction and country upbringing. Almost everyone in my immediate and extended family bailed hay, tapped syrup, butchered animals, stacked wood, and harvested corn at some point during the year; even if it was on an ad hoc basis as it was for me.

Modern women and pioneer women are not the same beneath that veneer. Living with the land and settling the unsettled instill a certain set of virtues; a different kind of grit that is resolute in subduing the earth, but knowledgeable of one's place in nature.

Bitchiness has a petty quality to it. It is feminine aggression targeting things that do not call for feminine aggression. It's non-essential, complaint department trash. Pioneer women generally knew when they ought to be a fox and when they ought to be a lion. Same goes for men. Modern Westerners do not and we are throwing away the corpus of wisdom what would have led us to virtue without bailing hay.

Alas.

Quarrelsome/nagging wives existed since the beginning of time, and were mentioned in the Bible. Sarah though a good woman seems a bit bitchy. Not much has changed. Now women do not have to live under the threat of physical violence, maybe that's what has change and so they say their piece. Whereas before, they would have not said it.

Men are waking up to strong independent i dont need a man for nothing attitudes in the west. It was sold as hey young man u will benefit. No alimony less childsupport more money to pay bills. How can u argue with that. However none of those things have happened. In my state there were multiple public court cases where a licensed practicing fulltime female doctor was awarded alimony from her exhusband. Career women actually receive the most child support of any demographic. Women with college degrees top the divorce initiation rate.

As a man it is no fun to live with a woman who goes to work listens to and does everything her boss says for years. It never crosses her mind shes not going to do what her boss tells her. Then she comes home and will not listen to a word you say. Does not care if you are happy at all. Millions of women have been selling this to men for decades. Recently it has turned into my way or the highway from independent women. Men are taking the highway.

Women iced men out to accept this deal for decades. With no other options they took it. After decades they can see the results and many are not interested. Either bring something of value to men to the table or b prepared to die alone. You should retitle this to i want to die alone whos with me.

Either bring something of value to men to the table or b prepared to die alone. You should retitle this to i want to die alone whos with me.

My goodness, Treeboy, I have read a few of your posts and I'm sorry for whatever you've been through, but you always come across as sounding like a venomous snake towards women. Posts like yours are exactly why I pay for the guy on the first date, even if he asked -- so that he can't come back and say I used him for anything.

You might take the time to notice that this thread's original post is actually written from the opposite frame of mind of what you're describing. And it was meant to give people hope that there are alternatives to life rather than placing all your bets on finding one magical person. It might not mean finding the life you thought you wanted, but it might mean finding a different, and just as meaningful, life.

The other day I remembered an old song (doctored to my situation) that described exactly how I felt when my then-husband left: "I got time while (he) got freedom... 'Cause when a heart breaks, no it don't break even."

I couldn't understand why he had found the freedom to run off with this girl, while I felt like I had been sentenced to Life Without Parole in Solitary Confinement. One of my biggest sorrows was thinking, "How will I ever be able to go anywhere (travel) without a husband?" But I learned how to get around that -- by using all my spare time to work, save up everything I could, and find awesome single, responsible friends who are able to travel together, including going on cruises. And I no longer worry about dying alone. I've lived several decades of my life around senior citizens, and I've seen that having a spouse and even children or grandchildren is still no guarantee that one won't die alone.

At the very least, you could wind up outliving all the ones who were willing to have anything to do with you, which I've seen happen.

As far as having things to offer a man... The last time I went to buy a car, the guy who went to check my credit came back and told the salesperson to be nice to me because my credit score was higher than his, lol. The thing was, I didn't even need a credit score because I bought the car in cash. Granted, that was nearly 10 years ago and the car still runs perfectly so there's no need to replace it, but when I do, I'll have saved enough to buy the next one in cash as well. And I know several other women who are either in, or approaching, this category as well.

I hope the guys out there don't believe that every woman is a soul-sucking, gold-digging vampire as described in your post. Sheesh.

And none of this is to try to give myself any credit -- I just tried my best to listen to Godly counsel. And the whole point of this thread was to get a conversation started about being different from the rest of the world and the stereotypes that others try to pigeonhole us into. I'm trying to encourage singles, both men and women, to break out of the boxes that both society and the church try to shove us into, because we can be something different.

I do agree that everyone, both men and women, need to bring something to the table when seeking a relationship. We live in a culture where even in Christian circles, it feels like it's all take and no give, and of course, that's not how God wants us to be.

But I often ask myself what the balance is between what God expects our own expectations to be vs. how much we should also be willing to sacrifice, especially since so many people have fallen upon such tough times, and one of the pillars of the Christian life is to "deny ourselves."

I think the question is whether the trend of the modern bitch I defined above was more common or less common in antiquity (this is starting to sound like a Monty Python sketch), the Sarah anecdote notwithstanding.

It's possible physical violence played a role, but there were doubtless other factors. That and there is a difference between saying one's piece and being a Karen.

Was I lucky that I had a string of women in my family (mother, grandmother, great-grand mother) who were constitutionally strong yet not bitchy? Is this an anomaly?

Men are waking up to strong independent i dont need a man for nothing attitudes in the west. It was sold as hey young man u will benefit. No alimony less childsupport more money to pay bills. How can u argue with that. However none of those things have happened. In my state there were multiple public court cases where a licensed practicing fulltime female doctor was awarded alimony from her exhusband. Career women actually receive the most child support of any demographic. Women with college degrees top the divorce initiation rate.

As a man it is no fun to live with a woman who goes to work listens to and does everything her boss says for years. It never crosses her mind shes not going to do what her boss tells her. Then she comes home and will not listen to a word you say. Does not care if you are happy at all. Millions of women have been selling this to men for decades. Recently it has turned into my way or the highway from independent women. Men are taking the highway.

Women iced men out to accept this deal for decades. With no other options they took it. After decades they can see the results and many are not interested. Either bring something of value to men to the table or b prepared to die alone. You should retitle this to i want to die alone whos with me.

Nothing wrong with women being strong and capable all on their own. Is something very self contradictory in a woman who throws a fit about how strong she is until the people around her give in and tell her she's a strong woman.

Now I know that the very notion "Financially Independent Women" is going to automatically result in a knee-jerk reaction from some people.

I can assure you, nobody considers it a negative if a woman is financially independent.

I've never met a man who said he was scheming to control his wife by making her quit her job or career. I never met a man who said he won't marry a woman who is financially independent.

I guess there are people out there who want to buy wives they can control, that'll be dependent on him. And even more women who want to sell themselves for that. That's their private business. If you run into one of the buyers or sellers, and you don't want them, no need to complain, just move on.

I'm sure there are some fathers and mothers who want the mother to be home to raise their children... that has nothing to do with if she is/was financial independent. Nobody can force her. So again, that's private business.

I can assure you, nobody considers it a negative if a woman is financially independent.

I've never met a man who said he was scheming to control his wife by making her quit her job or career. I never met a man who said he won't marry a woman who is financially independent.

How did you miss Kauko, in this forum? He was ALL about the woman being financially dependent on him.

And yeah, there are guys like him in real life.

so being dependent is FEMININE? while being independent is Masculine?

what

lol

interesting....or rather...implausible. I would just think its a matter of being grown up.

Hey Everyone,

Now I know that the very notion "Financially Independent Women" is going to automatically result in a knee-jerk reaction from some people.

There might even be talk about how such women are Femi-Nazi's, rebellious Jezebels, and enemies of the Christian faith and family. I am very aware that many Christians are against the idea of a woman having a career and making money on her own.

But what about all the single women who become financially independent by default?

Most people who have been here in the Singles Forum a while know my story. I married young, and he left me for someone younger while we were both still very young. He remarried and had a family, so there is no possibility of any kind of reconciliation. I do believe, with much study, prayer, and guidance from spiritual authorities at the churches I've been a part of, that I am Biblically able to remarry, but for whatever reason, God has kept me single.

In the many years that followed, I filled most of the long, lonely hours with work. I come from a family in which almost all the women worked before marriage, married very young, continued to work until they had kids, then stayed at home with the kids and most went back to work after the kids were grown. I didn't think I'd be any different. I figured I would work until kids came along, work as a homemaker, and then go to back to an outside job when the kids were grown in order to help with the bills.

Now raise your hand if your life didn't quite go the way you expected. (Never mind me as I raise both hands and both feet.)

I also come from a family who, if they are addicted to anything, it would be work, and saving money is treated like an Olympic sport. I don't know what other people talk about at their family gatherings, but I have a sector of my family that happily recalls the week's events of how they bought such-and-such on sale, through a discount club, with a coupon, on a rewards card that also earned them 10 gajillion more points on their purchase.

I was also raised with the mindset of living as frugally as one can do comfortably. For example, it's been over 2 years since I bothered plugging in my television, because I don't use any kind of cable or subscriptions services. Throughout my life, I spent most nights on the weekends writing paper letters and/or electronic messages rather than going out. And I was raised under the strong influence of parents who drilled it in my head from a young age to save money wherever I could. (As kids, if we received any birthday or Christmas money, we were required to tithe 10% of it to church, then save half of what was left.) I hated this rule as a kid, but am grateful as an adult because of the strict financial discipline it instilled.

I've never had a "big career" or position that would be of any significance to anyone. But I did fill my time with work, church, volunteer and ministry tasks, while mostly just being a homebody. Because of this, as the years (and years, and years) have rolled by, all I knew to do to try to give my life purpose was to start making goals for myself.

I also spent about 12 years in a few long-term relationships in which I wound up paying for the guys' bills, kids, addictions, and court cases, and when I finally untangled myself from all of that, I was kicking myself because I could have put all that money into my future retirement goals instead. (I'm trying to follow other family member's examples of retiring and then going into full-time volunteer ministry work.)

Though I don't go on many dates, I have gotten to the point where, on the first day, I just tell the waitress to put it on one bill and hand it to me, unless the guy absolutely insists on paying (and even then, I've usually already had the waitress process it before he should protest.) This is because of the many, many posts I've read on CC over the years about guys complaining that women are only out for money. As I've become more financially stable, I just decided in my heart that I will never give a man any reason to say that I used him for something, and most especially not a free dinner.

Now, I am certainly not criticizing anyone who might be in a different situation. But I wanted to talk about this because I see a lot of discussions about what women "should" or "should not" do:

* Women should stay at home.
* Women should not have careers.
* Women should not be independent (and I understand that some even believe that women can't be independent.)

But the thing is, what about all the women I am meeting at this stage of my life who never purposely set out to "go against the grain," but this is where life (and perhaps God) has taken them? And some of the plans I thought I could never fulfill without a husband (such as traveling,) I am now able to fulfill because I find other single women who have the same interests, as well as the means to pay for them.

I came to see every debt I owed as a noose around my neck, and, after watching other family members cut off most of their nooses, aspired to do the same. My ultimate goal is to break away as many nooses as I possibly can in order to free up my time and resources for more opportunities to help people.

And the thing is, I keep meeting more and more single women who, for whatever reason, haven't married (but would like to,) and in the meantime, they are working towards the same kinds of goals. Not out of rebellion or even by choice (most I know would like to be married with children, but it just hasn't happened,) but because this is what they are doing with the time God has given them.

And I know that in my own life, in order to keep up the practice of being submissive to a Christian man, there are times in my life when God has specifically led me to go to my father and/or Christian male friends about some of the decisions I make, so that I don't become "too" independent by default.

I know I have shared a lot about myself in this thread, but this discussion is NOT meant to be about me or my life at all. Rather, I'm using my own example as a springboard to open a conversation that asks:

* What happens when women become financially independent by default? (Due to life circumstances, not rebellion.)

* How does this change the dynamics between men and women when dating? (What if she makes more money than he does? Should she be expected to pay because of it?)

* How does a man lead a woman who is more financially independent than he is?

* If you believe a woman should or can never become independent, what should a long-term single woman be doing with her time, and how should she support herself?

* For the ladies -- if you would like to get married, how do you see yourself going from making all the decisions to yourself to then submitting the final say to a husband?


I understand the traditional viewpoints that women should stay at home and be homemakers without ever holding an outside job. But my parent's full-time volunteer ministry is financial counseling (they pay for all the expenses involved themselves,) and one of the biggest issues they are now seeing are women who have been raised in this mindset, kept dependent at home all their lives, then are left alone due to divorce or the death of their husband, and have absolutely no idea how to take care of themselves or their children.

I would love to hear your thoughts about women who have no choice but to learn how to take care of themselves. Thank you for sharing!