Is modern praise and worship simply a form of conjuring?
- Thread starter ResidentAlien
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
What is your understanding of this verse and how does it apply to the subject at hand?
This just show how ill-informed you are.
I already answered this but for your benefit I'll say it again. The Bible says to be sober. A hypnotic trance is the opposite of sobriety.
The Lord warned about false teaching and false religion. That's in the Bible. Do you have a problem with Him doing it? He's our example. If you don't like me following His example perhaps it's a problem with Him you have, not me.
You want scripture? Here's some:
"If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."—John 15:18-19
God The Holy Spirit is as much God as God The Father and God The Son.
Calling on The Spirit of God is not dishonouring or excluding The Father God.
John 4 (CSB)
23 But an hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and in truth.
Yes, the Father wants such people to worship him.
24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and in truth.”
Do you think Peter was 'unsober' when he went into a trance on the housetop and had a vision before going with the men Cornelius sent? Do you think Paul was not sober when he went into a trance while praying in the temple and Jesus?
Alleging that people who sing praise songs get hypnotized sounds rather silly to me. Have you done any study of hypnosis from a psychological perspective? Feeling 'warm and fuzzy' isn't the same thing as hypnosis either.
These trances were uninvited. God did it without Peter working himself into it. If God wants to hypnotize someone or put them in a trance that's one thing. But if a sketchy church or preacher wants to invite me to work myself into a heightened state of suggestibility that's when I turn and run.
You're clearly uneducated and uninformed on this subject. Go do some research for yourself, I'm not here to do all your homework for you.
Have you been to a church that invited people in a heightened state of suggestibility? If so, please describe what the service was like.
The Psalms contain comments and commands about rejoicing, having joy, pleasure at the LORD's right hand, drinking in the river of His pleasures. The New Testament also commands 'rejoice.'
I noticed you did not respond to the points I made in a post where I quoted many verses that contradict your assumptions. Enjoying praising God-- rejoicing before the Lord is not sinful. It is in line with many of the Psalms.
Do you think that rejoicing or even a bit of 'excitement' is contrary to the idea of being sober? Maybe the issue is a vocabulary one. You should look up 'sober'. Maybe you think it means the same as 'somber.' It does not. Here is a Strong's Glossary Entry. Peter was not commanding people to not be happy, excited, not to rejoice, not to have emotions, etc. when he said to 'be sober.'
If you have some specific evidence from the Bible that you feel contradicts some teaching or a line in a song or a practice, please share it. Insisting that if people praise with their hands held high with contemplative looks on their face, they must be hypnotized is ridiculous and without basis in reality... or scripture.
I have been to numerous church services for over 45 years where people raise their hands and praise God, using a variety of music, including the contemporary kind. The idea that they are 'hypnotized' is ridiculous. Do some of them fall into a trance? Maybe...maybe... I've seen what seems to be a a trance several times out of the...probably... hundreds of thousands of people that I have seen. Trances and having a vision in a trance are Biblical sorts of things, or can be, depending on the individual case.
There are people who believe and confess that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, that He died for their sins, was buried, and rose the third day. Then they sing in a style you do not like, maybe express a bit of emotion while expressing appreciation for God. And you condemn that as 'hypnosis.'
It gets really troublesome if you accuse those who have faith in Christ of having a different spirit. In Matthew 12, there were Pharisees who opposed Christ who accused Him of casting out demons by Baalzebub. But Jesus had cast out demons by the Spirit of God. And He warned them that whoever spoke a word against the Holy Ghost would not be forgiven in this age, nor in the age to come. They were accusing the Holy Spirit of being Baalzebub. If a brother or sister in Christ has believed the Gospel and has received the seal of the Spirit that the scriptures speak of, and you accuse the Spirit of being a demon, do you now see how dangerous this sort of judgment is. You should be careful about hurling accusations at other people, but especially careful about accusing the Spirit of God.
If you think the theology of the song is wrong, that it is not proper to tell the Holy Spirit that He is welcome or invite Him to 'flood the atmosphere', that is a valid point for discussion. But it does not justify the other accusations and insinuations. The Bible does not forbid speaking to the Holy Spirit. It is not listed in the forbidden occult activities in Deuteronomy 18, either.
Given your judgmental attitude and your bizzare grounds for accusations, which side of this am I supposed to think you are on? Are you the one doing the hating here? Despising other people that believe in Jesus and their faith... based on nonsense arguments, not scripture? Do you have any scripture that relates to your criticisms?
"The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" That's what Chicken Little said in the story. If emotions are engaged while singing praise to God, that is not a reason to fear being hypnotized, being put in a suggestible state. I think you are probably a bit paranoid on this issue.
Btw, I do not think I have ever heard of anyone inviting a trance by singing praise songs like this.
If you read the Psalms, there are Psalms of rejoicing, Psalms that command rejoicing, dancing even. There are also mourning Psalms. The idea of sacred songs that engage the emotions is right there in the Bible. What are you drawing from to make your argument-- fear and a pseudo-scientific understanding of hypnosis and suggestive states.
You come off as educated or uninformed--or probably influenced by some soft pseudoscience about mesmerism from the 1800s or else silly assertions made on blogs.
If you want to convince us that what goes on in 'contemporary' praise and worship services constitutes hypnosis or putting people in suggestive states, present some evidence. You are the one who promoted your theory in the OP. You can't expect us to accept your assertions.
Without film from the first century church to compare to the Christians being accused (on film) there is no case.
Apart from things like the sound equipment and the clothing style there is no proof that modern church
worship is any different to that of the early church.
It is a false accusation that calling on The Holy Spirit is issuing orders to him about what he must do.
Or that it is calling a false god. Or detracting from worship of God The Father.
Or that being filled with The Spirit is a conjuring trick or a Satanic trance.
A frivilous case.
Apart from things like the sound equipment and the clothing style there is no proof that modern church
worship is any different to that of the early church.
It is a false accusation that calling on The Holy Spirit is issuing orders to him about what he must do.
Or that it is calling a false god. Or detracting from worship of God The Father.
Or that being filled with The Spirit is a conjuring trick or a Satanic trance.
A frivilous case.
Good worship is worship that empowers a person to live for the Lord without needing a "fix." Counterfeit worship is worship that gives people an emotional fix. In other words, it produces an altered state of consciousness and conjures emotional states in a person that they find themself needing more and more. They just don't seem to feel "right" throughout the week and need their fix. They don't need to worship the Lord necessarily, they just need that emotional high.
There are many good articles and videos out there about the hypnotic effects of music. You can look them up.
You're not going to necessarily see someone who looks like a zombie. About the only way to tell if someone has been hypnotized and brainwashed is to observe their behavior. Are they following a leader who teaches obvious false doctrine? Does the church teach the Bible or does it have a charismatic leader who teaches extra-Biblical revelation? These teachers rely heavily on people accepting whatever they say uncritically. Do they seem to look forward to the praise and worship services maybe just a little too much? Can they explain why they believe what they believe other than "well, the teacher teaches it?"
Here's a video you may find helpful.
S
SophieT
Guest
S
SophieT
Guest
He also warned about those who have a FORM of godliness, but deny the power thereof
like you are doing
S
SophieT
Guest
@Aidan1 was addressing a video that had false teaching. It was a video I found shocking as the person in the video was teaching that God needs people to give him permission to work which such teaching is false.
Show me where the Bible warns about any of these concerns. You have set up your own standards--not Biblical ones-- about things to warn people to watch out for.
I sing praises to God when assembled with other believers no matter what it feels like. Many other people do, too. I don't feel like I am getting an emotional 'fix.' Some people are more given to emotion than others. I can find no scripture that condemns experiencing emotion while praising the Lord. As I pointed out earlier, the Psalms command people to rejoice. The Psalms were used as a hymn book for Israel. I just saw over 40 references to 'rejoice' in the Psalms with an online Bible search.
If someone does experience joy as a by-product of praising God, is that a bad thing? Would it be wrong for someone to genuinely praise the Lord when he feels bad, for example?
Consider Psalm 42
5 Why are you cast down, O my soul,
and why are you in turmoil within me?
Hope in God; for I shall again praise him,
my salvation 6 and my God.
(ESV)
When someone is downcast, it is good for that person to hope in God and praise him.
What does James say people in certain emotional states should do?
James 5
13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
People can direct their emotional energy into prayer and praise. It is okay. It is taught in scripture. There is none of this fearmongering you are spreading, "Oh no, if I might get hypnotized."
Emotional responses are not the Holy Spirit. But having emotional responses is not forbidden.
So where are you getting these teachings that would have you condemn people praising God when the Bible does not warn about these concerns of yours? Are you listening to a leader with a lot of charisma-- in the secular sense? Are you claiming extra-Biblical revelation for these teachings of yours? I cannot find any of these warnings in scripture? Are you promoting this supposed 'science' you are promoting here about hypnotism over the teaching of scripture on rejoicing, praise, and worship?
Mmmhmmm, uncritically, as in accepting someone's theories and assertions without seeing whether there is any basis for it in the Bible.
Can you give us any reason to believe what you are saying is true besides you say so? Can you give us any reason we should be worried about being hypnotized while praising God?
This speaker acknowledges praising God through dancing. I wouldn't want to imitate pagan practices, but similarity between pagan practice and Christian practice does not necessarily make the Christian practice wrong. The Bible said to build altars out of unhewn stone. The pagan Canaanites also built altars out of unhewn stone. That doesn't make the Bible wrong.
He tells of Haitans working themselves into a frenzy to conjure up spirits. In his mind, this is associated with feelings of euphoria that come from four chemicals. Maybe I am operating under a different world view, but I wouldn't rule out someone conjuring up spirits to actually get demonized. It could be someone in a ritual sings and just gets worked up emotionally and doesn't happen to get demonized by doing it, also.
Our doctrine and understanding of the spiritual world should not be derived from Haitian occultic practices. We should look to the scriptures. The Bible doesn't warn us that if we get too emotional, we might conjure a demon. Even if Haitians work themselves into emotional states to do so. What about cultures where shaman try to conjure up demons by other means-- without singing until they get into a high emotional state? If there is a somber demon-conjurer, does that mean very serious Christians are in danger of getting demon-possessed, of conjuring up a spirit? Demons don't get to make the rules for us.
If someone thinks 'praise and worship' is all about getting a certain feeling instead of having a heart to praise God, that's something that needs to be corrected. Even an underlying theme focusing on people's feelings instead of God may need to be corrected as well. I have heard teaching on the topic from Charismatic and Pentecostals, also. There is also a difference between perceiving the Spirit at work and just feelings. There is more to our faith and the work of God than chemicals in the brain or atoms and molecules having chemical reactions.
The Bible actually specifically allows people who are in certain emotional states to respond with prayer or praise. It is allowed. If you are afflicted, you are allowed to pray. I am assuming getting emotional strength to endure, comfort, etc. is allowed. Paul wrote about getting comfort from the scriptures. If you are in a tough emotional state, you are allowed to pray for comfort, praise God for comfort, read scripture for comfort. It is not forbidden. If a 'dopamine rush' is going on in the brain during this time-- so what? If Haitian spirit-conjurers get dopamine rushes while singing or chanting, this is no basis for condemning a Christian getting a dopamine rush while praising God or reading the Bible or praying.
Judge righteous judgment.
"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;" Eph 5:18-20
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;" Eph 5:18-20
You are right. However nothing I wrote spoke about praising the Holy Spirit. Inspiration from the Spirit is always to praise God the Father. As in John 16:13,14 says Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth come, he will guide you into all truth: for he Shall Not Speak Of Himself: but whatsoever he shall hear that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: For He Shall Receive Of MINE, and show it unto you. I tried to explain that song is to worship God and give Him praise as in the Psalms and that the Holy Spirit is constantly flowing working. There is no need for song for the Holy Spirit to do His works. Yet there is nothing wrong with music that praises God. Its always God everything is from God. Even Jesus was obedient to the Father unto death. Everything Jesus did was what the Father told Him to do.
You wrote not about the father. You wrote about calling down the Holy Spirit for to fill the Atmosphare. You talking about praising the Holy Spirit. Thats different.
Bible teaches us to praise the father, nut not to praise the Holy Spirit.