accepting Jesus

Not at all.
I was just showing you that you dont know how to rightly divide the word.. you only know how to cut and paste your one true rant.
I know how to rightly divide the NT.
Im not new to New Testament exegesis.

You could do this.... Pilgrimshope
Look up......"Pauline Theology"., and go study it.
Once you learn what that means and what that teaches, then you'll recognize what i Teach, instantly.
As that is all a real NT teacher, is going to teach the believers and non.

Im ok if you insult then run.
Children are like that....and what else can you do ?
Its who you are.......

I was baptized as a baby in the Lutheran church....that is not biblical

if a person accepts Christ as their Savior right now and dies an hour later, they are still saved

what do you think salvation is exactly?

I was properly baptized as a young teen-ager when I actually understood what it was all about




not sure where you are getting this Randy, but it never helps to paint with such a broad brush

I was baptized as a baby in the Lutheran church....that is not biblical

if a person accepts Christ as their Savior right now and dies an hour later, they are still saved

what do you think salvation is exactly?

I was properly baptized as a young teen-ager when I actually understood what it was all about

not sure where you are getting this Randy, but it never helps to paint with such a broad brush

Have you noticed you never refer to anything in scripture ? /QUOTE]

Well lets see..
I referred to the Cross. I wrote about 20 verses, and i showed you why what you believe about 1st John 1:9, is confused.

So, its ok if you move on, as you helped some people here see what to avoid.
That would be, your theology.

"But to enjoy the fulness of Salvation, and to win God's pleasure for all eternity, we need to learn how to hear and obey his word every hour of every day. .

Something that alarms me is that many Evangelicals thing that:

- Accepting Jesus is repeating a prayer.
- If you don't repeat a prayer after someone you aren't saved.

Sometimes the individual is asked to go through the 'sinner's prayer' ritual, whether or not the Gospel is presented. The idea seems to be that if someone repeats a prayer and believes it, He is saved, whether or not they know Who God is, Who Jesus is, believe that Jesus is Lord, believe that He died on the cross or rose from the dead.

It is really strange and really disconnected from the New Testament. There are no examples of anyone having an audience or individual repeat a prayer like this to be saved in the New Testament. It seems like over time, these prayers-- in many cases--have been gutten of gospel content, but the shell of tradition remains.

The thing is, if you ask a lot of the preachers who preach crossless, resurrectionless messages and have people repeat prayers that vaguely mention Jesus and tell the audience they are saved if they believe it.... if you ask them if the think someone has to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died on the cross for their sins, or that He rose against from the dead to be saved, many of them say 'yes.'

When I was a child, I heard a lot of these prayers at the ends of church sermons and in crusades. They were usually offered following a sermon that explained the cross and the resurrection. I heard many prayers based closely on Romans 10:9-10. The prayer was a tool to help the audience confess faith in Christ. But in the past few decades, it is typical for the cross and the resurrection to be missing from both the prayer and the message that preceded it.

It's like they robotically follow the tradition, the way they have seen things done. Repeating a prayer is treated as important, not preaching the Biblical Gospel.

I've taken to contacting-- emailing usually-- pastors who give these strange altar calls.

Sometimes, extrabiblical ideas like "It's a relationship and not a religion" get treated as if they were the essential Gospel message, as if accepting the re-definition of 'religion' as a bad thing, that started gaining popularity around 1990, is what saves.

I believe we need to go back to the Biblical Gospel, but also Biblical praxis. When we read in Acts, those who heard the gospel were ready to receive it were baptized. We need to tell people-- so that they understand and are persuaded-- that Jesus is Lord and Christ, the Son of God, that He died on the cross for our sins, that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures. If they do not know Who God is, then we may need to start with that like Paul did with the Lyaconians and on Mars Hill.

They need to understand and believe the Gospel, not just go through some rote process that involves repeating a prayer.

"Salvation" is a bigger word than most people realize. It encompasses our right to "get to heaven," but it also encompasses a successful life lived for the Lord right here on the earth, here and now. Salvation is deliverance from a carnal lifestyle, from a life that displeases the Lord. It was making a carnal choice that led Adam to the path to death in the first place, because living apart from the Lord fails to get into His Kingdom.

So to me, Salvation is getting born again, which is choosing to abandon completely the carnal life of doing your own thing for living a life completely in the Spirit of Christ. We choose to always go Christ's way, instead of what we would do without him. Whatever we do, we do it with him and for him. He isn't a task-master, and so we need not fear being bullied about. But he is Lord, and can circumvent our will any time he wants. He just wants us to ensure that whatever we do, it is in his Spirit.

This is Salvation--learning to live a life in the Spirit, to yield up our own desires for things that pleases him. We need not be legalistic about it, but we need to make sure that love is the basis of all we do.

I was baptized as an infant, as well. I've been going to church since I was born. But I think that baptism is more a dedication by the parents than an actual baptism. True baptism was designed for the penitent to make a public display of his conversion. Babies don't do that. But parents are still obligated, by God, to raise up their children in the Lord.

My Lutheran experience was dull. I think it was like Luther himself, who was a Christian but didn't feel it was really there until he started getting revelations of God's grace. Wesley also didn't feel he was quite there until he got a revelation of holy living.

That's what happened to me too. I prayed every day, and knew the Lord with my mind. But I never knew he could fill my soul, and guide me in his love all the time. And so, true Salvation encompasses this deeper life, as I call it. We can be nominal Christians, and make it to heaven. But to enjoy the fulness of Salvation, and to win God's pleasure for all eternity, we need to learn how to hear and obey his word every hour of every day. It is walking with the Lord, as Enoch did.

Samuel didn't fully know God's voice until he began to obey it. That's what will get you all the way into experiencing the Lord, by learning to recognize his word and then obeying it. God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him.



I'm not being judgmental--I'm just concerned. I've been around the block quite a few times, and know what I'm talking about. This isn't to condemn anybody, but to help them like I was helped.

It is walking with the Lord, as Enoch did.

Actually , and again, you are trying to over emphasize Discipleship.
Discipleship, is the "present your body a living sacrifice".......

Here is the issue with what you are teaching.... You are teaching "winning God's pleasure", , is by trying to be good.(discipleship).
You defined this as trying to do righteousness, in your Thread.

So, here is what you are teaching....>"to please God, you are to try the best you can to be as good as you can be".

And in fact, that does not please God......All that does is try not to sin........which leads to the sinning.

Now, here is how you please God....."But without faith it is impossible to please God""""

Notice ..."impossible to PLEASE GOD">........if your FAITH is not RIGHT.
See that?
And why is that? Its because with God all things are Spirit, Truth, Light, Righteousness, and FAITH.

God is much more interested in His Sons and Daughters of Christ becoming FAITH PERFECT, vs, holy lifestyle burdened.
Why is that?
Because if your faith is not right..

1. You can't please God with you life....

2. If your faith is wrong, you can't live the life of Holiness

See, its having correct FAITH, that is the KEY to understanding how to "work our your salvation", and exist IN the Kingdom of God, BY Faith.

All good points. I really don't want to put too much on someone who is sharing the Gospel, but what good is a watered down Gospel in which people aren't sure of what the commitment entails? I want to see less top-heavy preaching where one pastor does all the teaching and more opportunities for converts, including new converts, to speak and share with the church their conversion experience.

Average Christians need to learn how to speak about their faith, and opportunities need to be made for them to get practiced in it. And in the process, true and clear teaching can come out of this, even if it affords the opportunity for imperfections.

Christians need to learn how to speak about their faith intelligently, which will ensure that they have really received the Gospel. We can't just leave it to pastors and evangelists to share the Gospel. As you say, they don't always do a good job. And they need feedback too!

If only the leaders in a church share the Gospel, all of their flaws will be communicated too. The Gospel will not be completely successful until the rank and file learn to speak and to live the Gospel, as well!

Christians need to learn how to speak about their faith intelligently, which will ensure that they have really received the Gospel. We can't just leave it to pastors and evangelists to share the Gospel. As you say, they don't always do a good job. And they need feedback too!

If only the leaders in a church share the Gospel, all of their flaws will be communicated too. The Gospel will not be completely successful until the rank and file learn to speak and to live the Gospel, as well!

Randy ~ the word 'salvation' does encompass more than accepting Jesus to be sure, but the main understanding is to be SAVED FROM, in this case, death, spiritual and physical...not that our current bodies are preserved, but in the life to come

I would say do not confuse sanctification with salvation. sanctification is a process; salvation is that very moment that you are (saved)

Even so, we cannot live our life for Christ without the Holy Spirit. We cannot sanctify ourselves....yes, we can make right choices to help in that direction, but this is more an inner work of the Spirit of God within us.

well, not quite. we now have the Holy Spirit indwelling us and we cannot expect to be translated as was Enoch

we are to renew our minds by the word of God, the Bible, which means simply that we AGREE with what God says
the above, is a very simplified explanation

I'm not confusing salvation with sanctification--you are! This is a language issue. I spoke perfectly clear about what I meant, that *getting to heaven* is one thing, and *living for God* is another thing. Both are wrapped up in what the Bible calls "Salvation."

What silliness! You can't even learn from Enoch without criticizing me? What spirit are you of--a critical spirit?

Our salvation is a partnership with Christ.

not all pastors are teachers. one of the spiritual gifts is teaching. that would require Bible study and that is not usually what a person will get on a Sunday morning in church. teaching is different from giving an altar call

actually Christians need to learn what their faith is ... period...in many cases. they need to understand what their identity in Christ is, that self effort cannot maintain their life, that works are not sanctification, that we are actually each responsible for our own walk but at the same time, should be free from thoughts such as 'I am special' 'I cannot be deceived' 'I hear from God directly and do not need anyone to teach me' and so on.

these are all errors that are commonly found among Christians and no one can skip over the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives...which can be painstaking...and think they have suddenly grasped knowledge when sanctification is a lifetime
what do you mean by the above? I'm not sure you understand the process

yeah ok Randy. I guess at this point I understand what Kidron is saying

have a nice thread. I sure don't need any correction from you.

BTW, going 'you are!...that's immaturity. if you don't agree, simply say you don't agree. and then state why...but you cannot really say why without distorting scripture so you go 'you are' doesn't help and you will stay stuck in your current understanding...which is not really correct

like I said, have a nice thread....I don't get into discussion with people who are not actually discussing

All good points. I really don't want to put too much on someone who is sharing the Gospel, but what good is a watered down Gospel in which people aren't sure of what the commitment entails? !

This sounds like a contrdiction! I emphasize discipleship "too much," and then you emphasize a complete sacrifice? How can a complete sacrifice or intense discipleship be "over-emphasized?"
Claiming I don't have "correct faith" is an assertion without proof.

I was raised with the Lutheran truth that we can be saved, as Christians, through grace, and not have to perform in any way to qualify for this salvation. There is no law we have to meet, and no endurance record, not litmus test, to qualify us for getting through the pearly gates.

And I do think Luther was a prince of this concept of grace, just as Paul was. We can never satisfy the requirements of the Law of Moses to get into heaven. We are all flawed people.

But many raised in the Protestant churches today have missed what being born again means. I believe in his doctrine of grace Luther taught the need to be reborn. I believe he himself experienced a profound personal transformation, the same time that he learned about grace.

Today, many just think "accepting Jesus as Messiah" fulfills the requirement of accepting grace. But it doesn't. True grace comes when we accept Jesus' righteousness into our lives.
We can't earn that righteousness, but we can certainly abandon our old ways for a new way of life in Jesus' righteousness. This is the transformation required to get into heaven.

Accept grace by accepting Jesus' righteousness, and learn to put it into action. We need not be perfect, but we need to know what Jesus' love is, and to practice it, as evidence that we have truly received it.