Saved by Water

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G

Gideon300

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#101
Mar 18, 2021
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#101
Wansvic said:
I disagree with your descriptions.

As for the thief on the cross, he was under the OT mandate. The NT spiritual rebirth was not available to anyone until after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

Also, being passive recipients contradicts the word. The definition of passive is as follows: "accepting or allowing what happens or what others do, without active response or resistance"

The word conveys a fact. Individuals are to respond to Jesus' death, burial and resurrection through belief, repentance, and obedience to the command to be water baptized in His name.
Click to expand...
Wrong. A simple and personal example. I was led to the Lord on a ship somewhere in the South Pacific ocean. I was in the Royal Australian Navy. I knew nothing about baptism and the man who witnessed to me was a baby sprinkler (a Methodist). My experience was no less real. I had neither the knowledge or opportunity. The Navy does not stop to allow people to be baptised even though surrounded by water.

The Vietnam war was in full swing. We could have been despatched to Vietnam waters. One of the RAN's ships was attacked and men died. If that had been me, I would have gone to heaven. I knew almost nothing of spiritual things, but that is irrelevant. I was born again. Christians should be baptised, but it does not save us.

The argument for baptismal regeneration is flawed and divisive. Why people want to add something to the finished work of Christ on the cross and His resurrection is a mystery to me. Salvation is a gift to be received, not work that we must perform.

Some people were born again in OT times. The Holy Spirit does not come on the unsaved. What they lacked was the indwelling Holy Spirit. How could King David write God's word if he were not born again? How about Moses, Abraham and the other men of faith? They were indeed born again.

John 1:12 & 12

"But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.…"
Berean Study Bible
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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#102
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#102
eternally-gratefull said:
Your right it does not. Everyone should do all that God commands. Not just water baptism.

What they DO is say the water we are washed with is not the waters of baptism.

I believe John 3 also. For God so loved the world he gave his only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

No mention of water baptism. period.
Click to expand...
In the beginning was the word... (John 1:1) Believing in Jesus is more than a mental activity. As Heb. 5:9 states, Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all that obey Him. Jesus will say I never knew you to people that professed to know Him. (Matt 7:23) Obedience to His commands are not optional. All will be judged by His word. (John 12:48)

Heb 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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#103
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#103
JBTN said:
“Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:1-10‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.3.1-9.ESV


Jesus said to Nicodemus “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things.” Would Jesus have expected the teacher of Israel to understand Christian water baptism. Maybe I just don’t understand, but I don’t believe he would have. I think about things like how he had to open the minds of the apostles to understand the scriptures in Luke 24.
Click to expand...
Surely Nicodemus was aware of John’s message and Jesus approval of water baptism. As seen in Jesus' presence during baptisms. Consider the vivid picture of one being buried under the water and coming out of waters of the “womb” being born anew.

Nicodemus had to have been familiar with required obedience to OT washings for purification of which NT water baptism is the antitype.

Also he should have been able to see the NT responsibilities as paralleled in the OT. In order for individuals to be “born” into the Jewish community the Gentile proselytes were required to obey the OT law of circumcision and immerse in the mikveh.


BAPTISM OF PURIFICATION:
Old Testament washings were almost always for those of the already believing community. They symbolized cleansing from sin and guilt. Whereas sacrifices were to atone for acts of sin, washing or bathing seems generally associated with cleansing from a sinful or otherwise unholy condition. JewsforJesus.org
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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#104
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#104
Gideon300 said:
...Why people want to add something to the finished work of Christ on the cross and His resurrection is a mystery to me. Salvation is a gift to be received, not work that we must perform.
Click to expand...
The word of God provides instructions that require obedience in connection with the spiritual rebirth. It has nothing to do with a person wanting to add anything.

I understand that what is preached by many today contradicts what is clearly found in the word. But the word is what all will be judged by. It is Jesus who said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16:16) And it is through his name that people receive remission of their sin in water baptism. (Acts 22:16, 2:38-41, 10:43-48) One's faith in Jesus and his message will prompt believers to repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus in obedience to the command.

John the Baptist's message was an introduction into the way of righteousness and exactly paralleled the very words of the Lord Jesus; believe and be baptized.

Matt 21:31-32
Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
 
J

JBTN

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Feb 11, 2020
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#105
Wansvic said:
Consider the vivid picture of one being buried under the water and coming out of waters of the “womb” being born anew.
Click to expand...
If you recognize the biblical references to the water of the womb, take another look at the context of Jesus discussion with Nicodemus.

“Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.3.4.KJV

In John 3:4 Nicodemus asks Jesus if a man can enter a second time into his mothers womb. So why wouldn’t it make senes for Jesus to reference our fleshly birth in his response.

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.3.5.KJV

If the water here in verse 5 is our natural birth, doesn’t that fit the context of the discussion. Doesn’t Verse 6 also indicate that this as well.

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.3.6.KJV

I have heard it said that it is silly to say that you first have to be born, as if to say that can’t be what the water refers to. That idea goes away when you realize the relationship of this passage to 1 Corinthians 15 as I pointed out earlier.

“it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:44-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1/1co.15.44-50.KJV

This whole passage makes the argument that one must first be born of the flesh before one can be born of the spirit. Think about how that corresponds to Jesus statement in John 3:5.

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.3.5.KJV

Jesus statement to Nicodemus in John 3:5 mirrors the 1 Corinthians 15 passage. Born of water refers to fleshly birth as John 3:6 indicates. One must first be born a natural man and then a spiritual man. Both are required, ”born of water and the Spirit”.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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#106
Nov 27, 2018
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#106
JBTN said:
If you recognize the biblical references to the water of the womb, take another look at the context of Jesus discussion with Nicodemus.

“Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.3.4.KJV

In John 3:4 Nicodemus asks Jesus if a man can enter a second time into his mothers womb. So why wouldn’t it make senes for Jesus to reference our fleshly birth in his response.

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.3.5.KJV

If the water here in verse 5 is our natural birth, doesn’t that fit the context of the discussion. Doesn’t Verse 6 also indicate that this as well.

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.3.6.KJV

I have heard it said that it is silly to say that you first have to be born, as if to say that can’t be what the water refers to. That idea goes away when you realize the relationship of this passage to 1 Corinthians 15 as I pointed out earlier.

“it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:44-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1/1co.15.44-50.KJV

This whole passage makes the argument that one must first be born of the flesh before one can be born of the spirit. Think about how that corresponds to Jesus statement in John 3:5.

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.3.5.KJV

Jesus statement to Nicodemus in John 3:5 mirrors the 1 Corinthians 15 passage. Born of water refers to fleshly birth as John 3:6 indicates. One must first be born a natural man and then a spiritual man. Both are required, ”born of water and the Spirit”.
Click to expand...
I do not see that reference to water being the natural birth; being born naturally would seem to be a mute point. In addition, I come to this conclusion because of the many scriptures that witness to both water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit being required for the New Testament believer.

Also, consider that water and spirit are essential parts of the natural birth process. The word states that spiritual concepts can be seen in God's design of the natural. (Romans 1:20) Why did God choose to have babies come forth from a body of water in the mother's womb? God could have designed it anyway He saw fit. According to the referenced scripture in Romans man is without excuse; God's truths can be easily seen, it just requires a willingness to look.
 
J

JBTN

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#107
Wansvic said:
I do not see that reference to water being the natural birth; being born naturally would seem to be a mute point
Click to expand...
It clearly is not a moot point. If it was why Paul have been inspired to write such an in depth and long explanation of it in 1 Corinthians 15.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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#108
JBTN said:
It clearly is not a moot point. If it was why Paul have been inspired to write such an in depth and long explanation of it in 1 Corinthians 15.
Click to expand...
Thank you for pointing out the correct spelling of "moot."

I was referring to the belief that the water in John 3:5 is the natural birth. Since everyone is born naturally it just does seem plausible that Jesus was referencing that point.
 
J

JBTN

Active member
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Feb 11, 2020
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#109
Wansvic said:
I was referring to the belief that the water in John 3:5 is the natural birth. Since everyone is born naturally it just does seem plausible that Jesus was referencing that point.
Click to expand...
I was too. It may seem moot to us to say you have to be born in the flesh, but that is the context of the passage and Paul was inspired to discuss it at length in 1 Corinthians 15. Think about that for a second if Paul was inspired to write about that very thing, where did that inspiration come from. Both passages discuss how we enter/ see/ inherit the kingdom of God. Why woudn’t Jesus have the same thing on his mind when he was talking to Nicodemus.
 
awelight

awelight

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Aug 10, 2020
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Wansvic said:
The word of God provides instructions that require obedience in connection with the spiritual rebirth. It has nothing to do with a person wanting to add anything.

I understand that what is preached by many today contradicts what is clearly found in the word. But the word is what all will be judged by. It is Jesus who said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16:16) And it is through his name that people receive remission of their sin in water baptism. (Acts 22:16, 2:38-41, 10:43-48) One's faith in Jesus and his message will prompt believers to repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus in obedience to the command.

John the Baptist's message was an introduction into the way of righteousness and exactly paralleled the very words of the Lord Jesus; believe and be baptized.

Matt 21:31-32
Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
Click to expand...
Such misunderstanding of Mark 16:16. Did you intentionally leave off the back of the verse? Let's see the whole verse shall we?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Now let's provide a translation with more modern English words:

Mark 16:16 He that has believed (Aorist active verb) and was baptized (Aorist passive verb) shall be saved; but he that has not believed (Aorist active verb) shall be condemned.

As noted in this translation the verbs for Belief and Baptize are past tense in the Greek language. So the Lord is stating the fact that if one has Believed and if one has been Baptized they shall be saved. Baptism always follows Believing. Therefore, Spiritual Regeneration of John 3-10 has nothing to do with water Baptism.

Also note, that our Lord did not include the subject of Baptism in the second half of this verse. One is condemned because they did not believe. Not because they were not Baptized. You left that out of your post because it did not help your case, I suppose.

Additionally, here in Mark 16:16, is the only place in Scripture, where this statement of Belief and Baptism are directly associated, in the same sentence, with "being saved". If one is a strong student of Scripture and translations, then you are aware that there is controversy over verses 9-20 of Mark 16. Many Biblical scholars do not believe these verses should be in the Bible.
 
GRACE_ambassador

GRACE_ambassador

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#111
awelight said:
the Lord is stating the fact that if one has Believed and if one has been Baptized they shall be saved. Baptism always follows Believing. Therefore, Spiritual Regeneration of John 3-10 has nothing to do with water Baptism.

Also note, that our Lord did not include the subject of Baptism in the second half of this verse. One is condemned because they did not believe. Not because they were not Baptized. You left that out of your post because it did not help your case, I suppose.
Click to expand...
Luke 7:29-30
 
awelight

awelight

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#112
GRACE_ambassador said:
Luke 7:29-30
Click to expand...
Sorry don't get your point. In my previous response - it was stated that these two (belief and baptism), do not appear in the same sentence together, as it relates to the words "be saved". Luke 7, changes nothing.

Blood is the only thing that saves not water. If one has been covered by the blood of Christ, he/she is saved. Regardless of the time or lack there of, to advance their knowledge of of the ordinances and commandments.

Rom_5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
Eph_1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Heb_9:18 Wherefore even the first covenant hath not been dedicated without blood.
Heb_9:22 And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.
Heb_13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus,
 
Kidron

Kidron

Banned
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Feb 16, 2017
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#113
Wansvic said:
1 Peter 3:20-21
“...God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”
Click to expand...
When ive dealt with hundreds of Catholics and many JW's concerning their Cross Rejection theology that is their false teaching that the water saves you, i have often asked them this..

If water saves you, then why did Jesus have to die on The Cross. ????
If water saves you, the why wasn't the Dying Thief on the Cross, water Baptized.?
If water saves you, then why didn't Jesus ever water baptize anyone?
If water saves you , then why isn't everyone saved who has taken a shower or a bath or gotten into a pool or lake or ocean?
If water saves you, then Why did Paul say that "Jesus sent me not to water baptize"?

They then show me...>"and Noah and family">......and say.....>"See there, the water saved Noah, just like it saved me and saved you".
And i point out.... this..

If Noah and family had gotten into the WATER, they would have DIED just like everyone ELSE, as the WATER killed everything that was breathing.
I then point out that the ARK that kept them OUT of the WATER, is what Saved them, as the ARK is symbolic of THE CROSS, and the water is symbolic of the JUDGEMENT that faces unbelievers.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#114
Jul 3, 2015
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#114
Wansvic said:
Surely Nicodemus was aware of John’s message and Jesus approval of water baptism. As seen in Jesus' presence during baptisms. Consider the vivid picture of one being buried under the water and coming out of waters of the “womb” being born anew.

Nicodemus had to have been familiar with required obedience to OT washings for purification of which NT water baptism is the antitype.

Also he should have been able to see the NT responsibilities as paralleled in the OT. In order for individuals to be “born” into the Jewish community the Gentile proselytes were required to obey the OT law of circumcision and immerse in the mikveh.


BAPTISM OF PURIFICATION:
Old Testament washings were almost always for those of the already believing community. They symbolized cleansing from sin and guilt. Whereas sacrifices were to atone for acts of sin, washing or bathing seems generally associated with cleansing from a sinful or otherwise unholy condition. JewsforJesus.org
Click to expand...
Jesus fulfilled all righteous by allowing John to baptize Him. All means all... don't you think?

Physical water accomplishes nothing toward the salvation of any other person.

"Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:13-14

On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:37-39
​
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#115
Nov 27, 2018
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#115
awelight said:
Such misunderstanding of Mark 16:16. Did you intentionally leave off the back of the verse? Let's see the whole verse shall we?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Now let's provide a translation with more modern English words:

Mark 16:16 He that has believed (Aorist active verb) and was baptized (Aorist passive verb) shall be saved; but he that has not believed (Aorist active verb) shall be condemned.

As noted in this translation the verbs for Belief and Baptize are past tense in the Greek language. So the Lord is stating the fact that if one has Believed and if one has been Baptized they shall be saved. Baptism always follows Believing. Therefore, Spiritual Regeneration of John 3-10 has nothing to do with water Baptism.

Also note, that our Lord did not include the subject of Baptism in the second half of this verse. One is condemned because they did not believe. Not because they were not Baptized. You left that out of your post because it did not help your case, I suppose.

Additionally, here in Mark 16:16, is the only place in Scripture, where this statement of Belief and Baptism are directly associated, in the same sentence, with "being saved". If one is a strong student of Scripture and translations, then you are aware that there is controversy over verses 9-20 of Mark 16. Many Biblical scholars do not believe these verses should be in the Bible.
Click to expand...
What you are suggesting is that Jesus didn't mean what he specifically stated. When what Jesus said in the second half of the verse gives clarification to his initial words. The gospel message includes the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin. If a person believes this and obeys the command they shall be saved. We know obedience is not optional. Jesus is the author of eternal salvation for all those who OBEY him. (Hebrews 5:9)

In addition, I am aware of the controversy concerning Mark 16. However, other scriptures speak to the same truth. And all scripture is given by inspiration of God. (Acts 1:1-2) Ananias told Paul to be baptized and wash away his sins calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22:16) Peter commanded water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin in answer to the gathered group's question "What shall we do?" after hearing of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. (Acts 2:37) An angel told the Gentile Cornelius to send for Peter who would tell him how to be saved. (Acts 11:13-14) As Peter shared the gospel message, God filled them with His Spirit, and Peter commanded the group to be baptized in water in the name of the Lord. (Acts 10:35-48)
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#116
Nov 27, 2018
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#116
awelight said:
Sorry don't get your point. In my previous response - it was stated that these two (belief and baptism), do not appear in the same sentence together, as it relates to the words "be saved". Luke 7, changes nothing.

Blood is the only thing that saves not water. If one has been covered by the blood of Christ, he/she is saved. Regardless of the time or lack there of, to advance their knowledge of of the ordinances and commandments.

Rom_5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
Eph_1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Heb_9:18 Wherefore even the first covenant hath not been dedicated without blood.
Heb_9:22 And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.
Heb_13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus,
Click to expand...
When is the blood applied?
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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#117
Kidron said:
When ive dealt with hundreds of Catholics and many JW's concerning their Cross Rejection theology that is their false teaching that the water saves you, i have often asked them this..

If water saves you, then why did Jesus have to die on The Cross. ????
If water saves you, the why wasn't the Dying Thief on the Cross, water Baptized.?
If water saves you, then why didn't Jesus ever water baptize anyone?
If water saves you , then why isn't everyone saved who has taken a shower or a bath or gotten into a pool or lake or ocean?
If water saves you, then Why did Paul say that "Jesus sent me not to water baptize"?

They then show me...>"and Noah and family">......and say.....>"See there, the water saved Noah, just like it saved me and saved you".
And i point out.... this..

If Noah and family had gotten into the WATER, they would have DIED just like everyone ELSE, as the WATER killed everything that was breathing.
I then point out that the ARK that kept them OUT of the WATER, is what Saved them, as the ARK is symbolic of THE CROSS, and the water is symbolic of the JUDGEMENT that faces unbelievers.
Click to expand...
Cross Rejection theology. Interesting. But not the least bit true in what I am sharing from the word.

Yes, it is absolutely true that the shed blood of Jesus paid the penalty for the sin for all mankind. However, the washing away of an individual's sin in association with Jesus' sacrifice requires obedience to the God-given command to repent and be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Those requirements pertain to every human being. Also, another thing that is not optional is the need for an individual to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. This mandate is not man made. It is by God's design.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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#118
Magenta said:
Jesus fulfilled all righteous by allowing John to baptize Him. All means all... don't you think?

Physical water accomplishes nothing toward the salvation of any other person.

"Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:13-14

On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:37-39
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Water baptism is a part of God's plan to fulfill all righteousness. Along with belief in Jesus' sacrifice, the need for repentance, and being indwelt with the Holy Spirit. (Represented in the scriptures in John you noted) All are necessary by God's design.

Matt 6:33
But seek (aim at and strive after) first of all His kingdom and His righteousness (His way of doing and being right), and then all these things taken together will be given you besides.
AMP
 
awelight

awelight

Well-known member
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Aug 10, 2020
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Wansvic said:
What you are suggesting is that Jesus didn't mean what he specifically stated. When what Jesus said in the second half of the verse gives clarification to his initial words. The gospel message includes the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin. If a person believes this and obeys the command they shall be saved. We know obedience is not optional. Jesus is the author of eternal salvation for all those who OBEY him. (Hebrews 5:9)

In addition, I am aware of the controversy concerning Mark 16. However, other scriptures speak to the same truth. And all scripture is given by inspiration of God. (Acts 1:1-2) Ananias told Paul to be baptized and wash away his sins calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22:16) Peter commanded water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin in answer to the gathered group's question "What shall we do?" after hearing of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. (Acts 2:37) An angel told the Gentile Cornelius to send for Peter who would tell him how to be saved. (Acts 11:13-14) As Peter shared the gospel message, God filled them with His Spirit, and Peter commanded the group to be baptized in water in the name of the Lord. (Acts 10:35-48)
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What brings about a change in a person is God himself. Not what we do and certainly not being dunked in water. Baptism is an ordinance. Believers follow His example. Many in the book of Acts were believers already without being Baptized. Once they were told of the Baptism, they followed Christ's example. Baptism is symbolic of death to the old man and a new man rising. Just as Scripture says, Israel was baptized, in a symbolic sense, when they passed through the parted sea.

Water cannot Regenerate. It can only clean the outside of a man. Do I have to get the Scriptures to prove that point? Blood is the only thing that can satisfy God. Blood is the only form of righteousness that can cloak unrighteousness and blood is the only thing that cleanses us daily.

1Pe_1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
1Jn_1:7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

First John 1:7, is a continual washing by the shed blood of Christ. It is dependent upon our walking in the light. the light of Truth. It is applied when the believer seeks forgiveness of his/her sins each day. (1 Jn. 1:9)

The ONLY REGENERATING act of God is in "The New Birth" discussed in John 3-10. According to the Greek word translated "that is born" in verse 8, (KJV), you have a Perfect. Passive. Participle of the verb used here. The "Passive voice", places emphasis on the action and not the subject of the action. The subject was not active in this birth, the subject was the recipient of this birth. The Holy Spirit is the source of this action.

This truth alone, destroys the concept of Baptismal Regeneration. How can a person be baptized without being active in it? You must consent to it and be an active part of it.
 
Kidron

Kidron

Banned
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Feb 16, 2017
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Wansvic said:
Yes, it is absolutely true that the shed blood of Jesus paid the penalty for the sin for all mankind. However, the washing away of an individual's sin in association with Jesus' sacrifice requires obedience to the God-given command to repent and be water baptized
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Water has no spirit in it. It has no spiritual Life.
It has no redeeming abilty., as its just water.
The water CULTS teach that the water and the Holy Spirit are the same......and this of course is a LIE.
So, when you teach that water washed away sin, you SPIT on the Blood of Jesus, and you insult the Grace of God.
Being born again is the only reason you go to heaven and that is a spiritual transaction that God causes with His Holy Spirit.....and Never with the city water supply.
 
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