The rapture and "the tribulation"

I am fairly new to Biblical studies and have been read some scholarly articles in the field of eschatology. I have studied the Bible in some depth in the past five years or so.

I think it is good to be aware that there is a debate amongst scholars as to whether it is appropriate to use the term "the tribulation" to refer to a 7 year period of God's wrath is correct. I posted below the three most commonly held views and their positions regarding the timing of the rapture.

Feel free to explain your reasoning as to why you think we currently are in "the tribulation" or not. Also, you can explain why you hold to a certain rapture position if you would like.

• A. Pre-Tribulational Raptures
  This is by far, the most common viewpoint in America today. It's roots can be traced back to the Plymouth Brethren in 1830, although it did not really become prevalent in America until the early 1900's. Pre-trib teaches this:

1. The final 7 year period of the world is called the tribulation.
2. The last 3.5 years are called the Great Tribulation.
3. The entire 7 year period is considered the wrath of God or the Day of the Lord.
4. Since the church is not destined for God's wrath, then the church is raptured prior to the 7 year period.
5. The rapture is considered to be an "any moment" event.
   

B. Mid-Tribulation Rapturism
This view is even more recent than pre-trib, becoming popular in 1941. This view believes:

1. The final 7 year period of the world is called the tribulation.
2. The last 3.5 years are called the Great Tribulation.
3. The last 3.5 years are considered the wrath of God or the Day of the Lord.
4. Since the church is not destined for God's wrath, then the church is raptured at the mid-way point.
   

C. Post-Tribulation Rapturism
Post-trib was by far the most popular opinion during the time of the reformation, but cannot be traced to a specific starting point. There are alot of variations on this view but in its classic sense post-tribbers believe:

• The church must endure the entire 7 year period, to be raptured at the end of the tribulation.
• God will protect his children through His wrath.
  I've tried to explain these views as simply as I could. While there are variations of each of these views, as a whole this is basically what each believes. Each of these uses scripture to support and build its case, but each has its particular problems.
• The church must endure the entire 7 year period, to be raptured at the end of the tribulation.
• God will protect his children through His wrath.

https://pluto.sitetackle.com/15974/?subpages/Oct.252010---The-Case-for-the-Prewrath-Rapture.shtml

I believe Daniel's 70th Week ended in 34 A.D.

I believe it occurred directly after the 69th week.

(490 consecutive years - unbroken - no gap)

Everything about eschatology is highly debatable even though I hold firm views on what I believe is most accurate.

The scholary articles on eschatology are likely going to lean towards a specific bias and then provide evidences to support it. It's really up to us to parse the scripture and find the truths ourselves.

My unsolicited advice, don't trust anything other than what the Bible literally says on the topic of eschatology.

Going through the entire 7 year period would put the church through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues of wrath that the two witnesses bring, all of which make up the wrath of God. There is a difference between the trials and tribulations that believers suffer as a result of their faith vs. God's unprecedented coming wrath, which is what the church is not appointed to suffer.

The underlying principle of why believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, is that Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God that every believer deserves satisfying it completely. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe and the church must therefore be gathered prior to said wrath.

Revelation 17:14, 19:6-8, 14, show the church as already being in heaven attending her wedding to the Lamb and then following the Lord out of heaven to the earth to end the age. In order to follow the Lord out of heaven, one would already have to be in heaven.

1). The problem with this idea is that the word 'ekklesia' translated as 'Church' is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then the word is never used again within the narrative of God's wrath. Coincidence? I think not.

2). There is no scripture that states or hints that the believers within the church are protected. This is why Jesus warns believers to always be watching (looking for His appearing and staying in the faith) so that this day does not close on us like a trap.

3). The only group that is protected are the 144,000 Israelites, who will have been sealed in their foreheads and their protection is mentioned regarding the 5th trumpet from the stinging torment of those demonic beings who are released from the Abyss. Whether they are protected from the rest of the plagues of wrath is not mentioned.

4). Revelation 13:5-7 states that the beast will be given power to conquer and make war against the great tribulation saints, who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. This group is not protected from being exposed to God's wrath and even mentions their exposure.

Not to turn this into yet another debate thread on the rapture, but that is incorrect. I won't correct it all, but let's just set the foundation straight.

Matthew 24:29-31 KJV (the definitive and indisputable post-tribulation return of Christ and the gathering of His elect (the church) from the Earth)

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV (the definitive post-tribulation gathering to Christ)

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the 1, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

God alone knows for sure. I lean to the view that Watchman Nee taught. Those true believers who are also disciples (not necessarily the same thing) will be raptured prior to the tribulation. Those who have avoided the daily cross and continued to live for self will suffer the tribulation. It may seem harsh but it is God's grace and mercy. Christians in oppressive countries know that to endure they must depend entirely on Lord Jesus. I read an article by a pastor who fled Mosul as it was certain that he would be killed. He said that he found it harder to be a Christian in Sydney than in Mosul. There were too many distractions and temptations.

This life is nothing compared with eternity. It is also the apprenticeship that sets us up for the next life. What we do in this life that originates in Christ and is empowered by Christ will stand for eternity. The works of self will be burned up and the believer will suffer loss. God's righteousness and integrity cannot be faulted. Some refuse to lose their self lives now. They will suffer loss in the next life. Some lose their lives now. They will be greatly rewarded for their sacrifice.

Those who pass through the tribulation will have a fresh opportunity to repent and choose Jesus to be Lord, not just Saviour. They will be greatly blessed.

Revelation 7:13-15

Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?” “Sir,” I answered, “You know.” So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason, they are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.…

Any time anyone says something is indisputable, it usually is and this is no different.

Matt.24:29-31 is regarding the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom and has nothing to do with the gathering of the church. In fact, the church will be following the Lord out of heaven to the earth to end the age.

Matt.24:31 is not the angels gathering the church, but will be gathering the great tribulation saints who will have made it through the entire wrath of God. Angels do not gather the church at the resurrection and when the living are changed and caught up. They will be raise immortal and glorified and in power.

"The Day of Christ" is not correct, but correct rendering is "The Day of the Lord," i.e. "Nor letter as from us, that the Day of the Lord is at hand." Also referred to in v.3 as 'That Day." That's a big difference, since the Day of the Lord is the time of God's wrath.

So, the correct meaning is that the proof that The Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath has come, will be because the apostasy has taken place and the man of lawlessness has been revealed. Our being gathered to the Lord takes place prior to the Day of the Lord, because those in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. This is also demonstrated in the following scriptures which state that the man of lawlessness will not come until the One who is restraining him from being revealed is taken out of the way, then he will be revealed.

You'll believe it when you see it take place exactly this way. The church will be gathered first, with the Day of the Lord to follow which is when that man of lawlessness will be revealed and which is the time of God's wrath.

It can be traced much further back than 1830. Paul spoke against the concept of rapture happening before great trib in one of his letters.

C. Post-Tribulation Rapturism

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It's starting point was when Christ spoke about it in the Olivet Discourse. Later, Paul would speak about it in one of his letters.

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Really? I've studied much of end-time events and I have never seen any scripture which speaks against the concept of the church being gathered prior to God's wrath. In fact, there shouldn't even be a question regarding the Lord's coming to gather His church prior to His wrath, because it is God's wrath and because of its severity and the fact that Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer.

"The punishment that brought us peace, was upon Him."

Please post that scripture where Paul speaks against the concept of the church being gathered before God's wrath. I'm sure that it has been misinterpreted to support the post tribulation view.

That's backwards from the scriptures. Matthew 24:29-31 confirms the gathering of angels occurs after Jesus returns.

Matthew 13:38-39 confirms the angels do this at the end of the world.

38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

The elect are the church, anyone who is in Christ.

Colossians 3:12
12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience.

Translators of the New Testament disagree with you.

Jesus doesn't come until after the man of lawlessness is in the temple proclaiming himself to be God.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

Prior to the return of Christ there will be false Christs and false prophets muddying the waters. Don't believe any of them. Wait for the return of Christ,. immediately after the tribulation, to gather His elect as promised.

Matthew 24:5; 11; 23-25
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.

The real Jesus comes after all the fakers have their fill of trying to deceive people.

Matthew 24:26-27
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

You'll believe it when you see it.

Do you have any Biblical evidence for any of what you just said?

We are in a paused period of time between 69 and 70th week. God stopped the doomsday clock if you will to allow the full number of gentiles to come in.

We have prophecy to guide us in this time scale of when the tribulation week or years will begin. All prophecy has been fulfilled. Meaning now we are only within the patience of God to allow a forknown number of gentiles to come to salvation.

This could end any day, any minute, and any second.

Rapture is pretrib according to the bible.

I don't believe we're there yet and I don't care to speculate on how close we are.

The reason I don't believe we're there is because of Daniel 9:27:

"And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate. . ."

The final seven years will commence with a seven-year covenant of some sort; possibly a peace treaty between Israel and the surrounding Arab nations brokered by the Antichrist. Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4:

"Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, 'There is peace and security,' then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief."

Those who are awake and watching will see this covenant for what is. But those who are asleep will be taken by surprise when the tribulation starts.

Of all the possible options, the pre-tribulation rapture is the least likely in my opinion.

According to your claim, there would be no difference for those who are watching and those who are not? You have both parties entering into the tribulation period, the time of God's wrath. Both would experience the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments regardless of whether they are the righteous or the wicked. However, the scripture that you posted is in favor of a pre-tribulation gathering. Here is the scripture again in part:

"Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. "

So, those (the unrighteous) who are saying "Peace and security" destruction will come upon them suddenly, which is referring to God's wrath, and they will not escape it. The next words are "But you, brothers," which grammatically infers the opposite of not escaping, i.e. "But you brothers will escape." And how will they escape? By the way that Paul just finished describing, i.e. the dead in Christ shall rise first, the we which remain and are alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. I've listed the scriptures below without the chapter breaks:

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For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Now about the times and seasons, brothers, (regarding the event above) we do not need to write to you. For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief.
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So, those who are unbelievers who will be saying "Peace and security" will not escape God's wrath, but those who believe are not in darkness so that this day should overtake them like a thief, i.e. those who believe will escape God's wrath. And the way of escape is listed above when the Lord descends from heaven where the dead are resurrected and the living are transformed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. At that point the entire church from beginning to the end will be gathered in the air, where according to His promise in John 14:1-3, He will take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, that where He is, we may be also.

God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. Therefore, the gathering of the church will take place prior to the on-set of God's wrath, which is initiated by the Lamb's opening of the first seal.

Yes, that is sound advice.

i belive the rapture already happend some stayed as truest belivers and some stayed as undecided but weve picked up a few and thats greate i mean its rilly Just GREAT

Where'd you hear that? Does someone teach it or did you come up with it on your own? What scripture is it based on?