Post something amazing that somewhat gets over looked in scripture.

Hello tstumf,

I wasn't going to respond to this at first, then I figured that I would. I understand what you are saying here, but I want to share with you, if you can receive it, that Revelation 12 is a future event and Jesus is not the Male Child.

In Revelation 1:19 John is told by the Lord to write:

What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 thru 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also stands for the entire church period

What will take place later = Everything that takes place after the "What is now," i.e. what takes place after the church period

We are currently living in the "What is now" portion of what John was told to write. In Revelation 4:1 John hears the same voice like a trumpet say, "Come up here and I will show you what must take place after this," which is synonymous with "What will take place later"

It is my belief that Revelation 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered. That being true, then everything from Rev.4:1 and forward are all future events, including Rev.12.

The woman is not a literal woman

The Sun, Moon and Twelve Stars are not literal

The woman being pregnant is not a literal pregnancy

The dragon with seven heads, ten horns and seven crowns is not a literal dragon

The woman does not give literal birth

The Male Child is not a literal Male Child

All of the above being true, then how can we interpret Jesus as being the Male Child?


Jesus Does Not Fit the Criteria as Being the Male Child:

The woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars

God first used the same symbols of the sun, moon and stars in Joseph's dream found in Genesis 37:9-10

Sun = Jacob

Moon = wife/wives

Eleven Stars = Eleven tribes of Israel, with Joseph being the twelfth star

Therefore if we apply the sun, moon and stars to the woman of Rev.12, she then represents the nation Israel as a whole.

"And her child was caught up to God and to His throne."

The word "harpazo" translated as 'caught up' is the same word used in 1 Thess.4:16, where the living church is 'caught up' to meet the Lord in the air. The word is defined as ' to seize, catch up, snatch away. properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force. It is the same word used when Paul said that he was 'caught up' to the third heaven and when Philip was 'caught away' from the eunuch. It is also used where Jesus said, "no one can snatch them from My Father's hand!" The Male Child is "snatched up" to God and His throne before the dragon can devour/kill him.

Taking this word into consideration, it cannot be used to describe what happened to Jesus, for He was crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended to the right hand of God. Therefore, He does not fit the meaning of force suddenly exercised and being snatched up and therefore does not fit the criteria of being the Male Child.

So who is the Male Child?

In Revelation 7:1-9 we are introduced to a new group, which are 144,000 Israelites who (unlike the woman) will believe that Jesus is their Messiah, 12,000 from each tribe. Then in Revelation 14, we see the 144,000 with Jesus standing on the heavenly Mount Zion, which is the New Jerusalem, where the Lord says of them "These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins." This would make them all males, ergo, Male Child. The Male Child is a collective name representing 144,000 believing Israelites whom the woman/Israel will figuratively give birth to.

Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth, is the result of the 7th trumpet/3rd woe, which is yet future. It is an event which will take place in the middle of the seven years. We can deduce this based on the fact that when the dragon is cast down to the earth, the woman flees out into the wilderness were she will be cared for by God for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year tribulation period.

Ok I’m trying to follow you here. I only have my study notes in my Bible to reference. Are you suggesting my study note is incorrect? View attachment 230182

I disagree strongly with your point here. thats all im going to say ill let a biblical Scholar tell you.
Many people heard the wonderful story of Christ’s incarnation, and some understood it for the very first time. But the version of the Christmas story that most haven’t heard, the one that even many Christians don’t seem to understand is the one found in Revelation 12.
It is this account that guards Matthew’s and Luke’s from the dangers of sentimentality. It keeps our vision of the incarnation from getting dislodged from the broader drama of redemption. And it reminds us that Christ’s Advent to earth was nothing less than a strategic, decisive military move in the raging cosmic battle between darkness and light. This is the full-orbed Christmas story that we need reminding of all year round.
Let’s look at this passage, think about the cast of characters, and then ponder three important lessons for today.
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.
7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”
13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. (Revelation 12:1)

There are three main characters in this passage: the woman, the dragon, and the child.
The woman (described in vv. 1-2) is clothed with the sun, with the moon is beneath her feet, and seven stars crowning her head. Who is she? Probably not Mary, but Israel. Verse 2 has clear echoes of Genesis 37, the passage about Joseph’s dream where the twelve stars represented the twelve sons of Jacob. John seems to be identifying this woman with Israel, God’s covenant people. The woman’s pregnancy and agonizing birth pangs point to the sufferings of God’s people as they awaited the Messiah, but also deeply resonated with the suffering saints who originally read Revelation.

Verse 3 introduces another character, a “great red dragon” possessed of both worldly power (all those heads and crowns!) and deep, unrelenting hatred and hostility towards the woman and her child. If it wasn’t already clear, verse 9 removes all doubt: the dragon is “the ancient serpent” the devil himself, “Satan, the deceiver of the whole world.” This not only identifies him with the serpent in Genesis 3, but also shows his antagonism towards God’s people, and especially towards the child of the woman, whom he seeks to devour.

And who might this child be? Read verse 5 again:“She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne.” This, of course, is Jesus the Messiah.

So what’s going on here? This passage uses heavily symbolic language to describe Satan’s attempts to destroy the Christ. Remember the massacre in Bethlehem? Remember the forty days in the wilderness? Remember the crucifixion?
But John is sounding another note as well. He says that this child rules the nations with a rod of iron (quoting Psalm 2) and is snatched up to God and his throne. Far from being destroyed by the dragon, this child shares the throne of God! This child is none other than Jesus the Christ (v. 10), the crucified Lamb (v. 11), the resurrected, exalted, and enthroned King.
But what does it all mean? Revelation is notoriously difficult to understand – so weird, in fact, that most of us just avoid it altogether. And yet, it is still God’s word for the church. And though interpreters may disagree on some of the details, the main point is clear and contains three very important lessons for us. continued

Ok I’m trying to follow you here. I only have my study notes in my Bible to reference. Are you suggesting my study note is incorrect? View attachment 230182

Hello tstumf,

In your post you inferred that Revelation 12 as being a past event, referring to the spiritual warfare going on at the Lord birth as the Male Child. Most people interpret the Male Child as being Jesus. However, if we take a closer look, Jesus does not fit the criteria of being the Male Child. And you won't hear this teaching from many people.

Simply put, the woman of Revelation 12 is representing the unbelieving nation of Israel. She gives figurative birth to a Male Child which is a collective name representing the 144,000 believing Israelites who are sealed in Revelation 7:1-8. In Revelation 14 it is stated regarding them that "these are those who did not defile themselves with woman, for they are virgins." This is saying that the 144,000 are all males, ergo, Male Child. It's just one of God's clues that He sprinkles in His word.

Revelation 12, the war in heaven takes place where Satan and his angels are thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth, is the result of the 7th Trumpet/3rd woe and is a future event, not a past event. The woman and the dragon are revealed through symbolism with the events of the woman giving birth and her male child being caught up to heaven before the dragon can kill him, the dragon's pursuing of the woman and her being cared for out in the wilderness for 1260 days, are all future events.

I would say, go back and reread my post which has all of the details in it. If you have any questions I would be happy to answer and explain.