Promise-Law Connection

Well some have taken Paul's negative statements about the Law and have obscured the positive elements of the Law. The Law was actually a spiritual thing, designed to aid in the operation of faith and obedience. It was temporary, yes, but it worked for a long time. It was meant to lead to that which would complete faith in Christ.

But what you say about the Law is true. No matter how much faith and obedience was involved, its purpose was to show that even the best saint sinned, and cannot, because of their sin nature, find eternal life. The Law confirmed the story of the Garden of Eden, that Man cannot achieve the Tree of Life because of his trespass against God's word.

So the Law was meant to show us that we all need a redeemer, Christ the Lord. None of that takes away form the good that the Law did.

And because of the negativity created by this unbalanced teaching of Paul, there is a counter-reaction by those who go overboard in reframing the Law as eternal, and even relevant to the NT life.

But we agree, this is wrong. The Law was good, but it could not bring salvation. As you say, we need to lay the Law aside, and recognize that all the law we will ever need resides in Christ. With Christ already come, who needs to go back to the Law, which was run by sinful priests?

I think we agree more than we disagree. I believe the law is, and always was spiritual. In the OT it was given in stone---meaning it was explained through fleshly acts given them to represent the spirit of the law. I agree the only change was in how the law was presented to us.

In our former posts, the disagreement seemed to center on that I saw Christ in the sacrificial system. It seems important to me to understand that it was only through blood that represented Christ's blood that they were preserved in sleep until Christ completed it at His crucifixion.

The law is eternal, it is holy and it is good,

but if taken out of its context like many want to do. It is made dangerous. As it turns people into modern day pharisee types who keep telling people how good they are or judging them because they do certain sins, while refusing to look on the inside to see their own sin, basically watering down the law to fit their own life.

moses said. And paul confirmed if we are to fulfill the law we must be perfect. As James said, if we keep thenlaw lay yet stumble (accident) in one point we are guilty of all.

we Can’t keep the law

thenlaw was not given to show us how to be righteous, it was given to prove we are unrighteous (it can convict us that we com tied adultry if we did the physical act. But it can’t tell us how to not commit adultry, or every possible means of com it ing adultry as Jesus explained in the sermon on the mount)

yet people will demand we keep it and need to follow it and judge anyone who does not think this as hating God and obedience,

The Law given to Moses by God is never destroyed nor is it abolished.
Jesus teaches in plain words He did not come to destroy the law rather to fulfill it.

As you have said, the moral law continues for we know it on our hearts, however and for the record, Jesus Yeshua has fulfilled the laws of Priesthood in in becoming the eternal High Priest making all who believe Him of that priesthood.

He fullfed the dietary laws in making all foods clean.. however we should not eat food offered to idols , that which has died of itself, nor eat blood.

He fulfilled the laws of the Temple becoming the Chief and the Corner Stone reject of men and taken to Heaven.
We are the living stones of the Temple.

Jesus Yeshua does tell us, teach us, there shall not be one stone left upon the other before He returns. This is also brought up in Daniel where we are taught the people of God will be scattered. Do not believe my y rendition of study of over five decades, read in the Book, it is there.

Jesus also fulfilled any laws of punishment on the cross for all who believe Him and He teaches any law without mercy may be disregarded.

If we believe Jesus we know He has fulfilled all of the law excepting any which make up Love. Read it, it is in the Book, it is in context and it is from Jesus.
There is no law that is made up by Moses, and the only manner in which it may be called the Law of Moses is in reference to his have receive and delivered it from God. The law is the law of God, always will be. Context.

Please forgive all the words, but they are necessary at times.

The law is eternal, it is holy and it is good,

but if taken out of its context like many want to do. It is made dangerous. As it turns people into modern day pharisee types who keep telling people how good they are or judging them because they do certain sins, while refusing to look on the inside to see their own sin, basically watering down the law to fit their own life.

moses said. And paul confirmed if we are to fulfill the law we must be perfect. As James said, if we keep thenlaw lay yet stumble (accident) in one point we are guilty of all.

we Can’t keep the law

thenlaw was not given to show us how to be righteous, it was given to prove we are unrighteous (it can convict us that we com tied adultry if we did the physical act. But it can’t tell us how to not commit adultry, or every possible means of com it ing adultry as Jesus explained in the sermon on the mount)

yet people will demand we keep it and need to follow it and judge anyone who does not think this as hating God and obedience,

Jesus never said we are under the Law at all in the NT era. The only ones Jesus said were under the Law were the Jews before the cross happened. And they were not to disregard *any law!* .

You keep on repeating the lie that God told the Jews they could be saved by their obedience to law. You say they are under the law. God never once said such a thing, if you actually read scripture then you know you are saying something of God that isn't true and repeating it over and over. So show us what scripture you have found to back you up. There isn't any.

I find this simply not dividing the word properly. You are taking one simple truth about the law and making it the entire law, so even your truth is in error. You say it is to lead us to Christ. That is like a propositional phrase in a sentence. The main phrase in describing the law is given us when it says the law is to love the Lord with all are heart and to lobe others.

You give the truth that we cannot keep the law perfectly. That truth does not cancel the law that sin kills. It does not cancel God's request that we repent. Christ said to be perfect. We go to college courses given by professors that try to make us perfect. Sports couches tell us how to be perfect. We would never tell them we refuse to try because we know we can't be perfect.

Please provide quotes where I say this, that Jews could be saved by their obedience to the Law?

I thank the Lord for my misunderstanding your post, and I am sorry for the fuss over nothing, please forgive me.

When you say Jews were under the law, I read that as their using the law for salvation. What do you mean when you say that?

It's okay. I'd hoped you just misunderstood! Yes, my belief about individual salvation and national salvation are different. An individual gets saved unto eternal life. A nation gets saved from disasters, such as in wars, weather problems, natural disasters, calamities, pandemics, etc.

When Israel kept the Law faithfully, God said He would give them the victory in battles, and preserve them in the land, blessed and prosperous. Obviously, God wished them to learn faith in this that ultimately leads to individual salvation. But it was also important to keep the nation on the right track, even though not all get saved, because it is conducive to good health, prosperity, and success in God's calling to be a city set on a hill.

I don't think scripture backs you up in your interpretation. God speaks only truth, so that truth has to be the same for all. God never would give one truth for individuals and a different truth for nations.

An example is Sodom and Gomorrah. God looked at the number of individuals in the town to base his decision to destroy it.

My intention is not to depreciate the importance of individuals, but rather, to emphasize the value of both individuals and society. You need both!

I have no idea why you think what I say is unScriptural? What I'm saying is directly taken from Scripture! If you read the blessings and the curses of the Law, you will find, quite transparently, that God is promising to save the nation from natural disasters and all kinds of judgments that otherwise would come upon a disobedient nation.

This is not saying God is unconcerned with individual salvation. I said quite the opposite. I said that God hoped that the Law would lead individuals to have faith that ultimately would lead to their salvation.

Salvation is a process that begins first with God bringing His word to us. Then we have the option of obeying that word. As well, we have the option of learning to live by that word, and not just do occasional acts of obedience.

Remember that the great sin that began the Fall of Man was the sin of compromise, or duplicity. It was doing both bad and good--not just doing bad. It was the knowledge of both good and evil--not just the knowledge of evil.

God doesn't want us just to listen to His word some of the time. He wants us to place our whole lives in His word, so that it is in our heart, and we want to do it all the time.

This is called being "born again," or we can call it "salvation." That was the purpose of the Law, to get all the individuals in Israel to turn their whole live over to God alone, and not compromise with idolatry. God knew that not all individuals would do this. But His purpose was to get the nation, as a whole, to generally comply with His rules so that the society could thrive, despite its flaws. God did not expect perfection, though His ultimate goal was for individual salvation.

We come to the same agreements, but the route we take to get there varies. Our minds seem to process information differently. I grab hold of the bottom line and keep that in mind as I read variations. The bottom line of law is love, with the Lord guiding us with law because God loves us. That the law leads us to Christ is a truthful variation of the law.

You think of God as God of nations, I think of God as the God of each individual that makes up that nation. We think the same, by different routes.

I think we agree more than we disagree. I believe the law is, and always was spiritual. In the OT it was given in stone---.

There is a connection between the Covenant of Abraham and the Covenant of Moses' Law that is tenuous and temporary. Paul called the Abrahamic Covenant a "promise," and he called the Law "temporary." He saw Christ as the eternal fulfillment of that promise, leading to the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant. The Law, initially connected to that Covenant, was a temporary fill-in.

Rom 4.13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Gal 3.14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. 15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

Abraham was promised the salvation of Israel and of many nations of faith. But this covenant was made with Abraham, as well as with Christ, on the basis of circumcision, and it was made with Israel on the basis of the Law of Moses.

Christ did not immediately come to bring final redemption for those under the Law, who remained hindered from access to the Tree of Life. And this was the purpose of the Law, to confirm that access to the Tree of Life was hindered by the guilt of human sin, and to show that the promises of God could not be fulfilled until guilt was completely and finally dealt with.

Gen 3. 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

But God provided hope, through the Messiah, a descendant of Eve, of a means back to the Tree of Life.

Gen 3.14 14 So the Lord God said to the serpent,... 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

God's plan of redemption of humanity after the Fall continued with Abraham, and this is what Paul referred to as the "promise"...

Gen 17.1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”
3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised."

The problem was, the Law was given to restrict access to the Tree of Life, while at the same time providing a basis for a relationship between God and Israel. Since the Law restricted access to the Tree of Life, its practice was strictly temporary, until Christ could come and establish both a relationship with God and access to the Tree of Life.

The Law therefore had to be detached, along with circumcision, from the covenant God made with Abraham and with Christ, Abraham's seed. As long as the Law was connected to this covenant, the promise of international salvation could not take place. Relationship between God and Israel would only be temporary.

As I said, the Law established a relationship between God and Israel, but it was a tenuous relationship, conditioned on replacing this temporary enablement of the Law with something permanent. Therefore, the Law had to be detached as a limiting element of this covenant, to enable man to have access to Christ, the source of eternal life.

In what way did the Law inform Israel of the limitations placed on their relationship with God? It set up barriers, including veils and walls, between God and Israel. A priesthood separated God from the people in some respects. And all were unable to approach God without carrying out certain rituals of purification.

Heb 9.6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

Good works were required of men by God, while at the same time the Law exposed human sin as preventing them from accessing eternal life. As long as the Law was in effect and connected to Abraham's covenant, eternal life could not be had, and unfettered access to God's salvation could not be had.

Good works, though they be good, would be mixed with bad works, and denial of access to the Tree of Life would continue to be enforced by angels. The best of the saints would be denied, despite their faith in God, the ultimate fulfillment of God's promises, at least until Christ could come and complete their hope.

Gal 2.16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

The limitations of the Law are removed when it is recognized that Christ provided final purification for Israel and for the world. Faith in Christ allows us to follow him, the source of eternal life. And following him enables us to live like him and have our flaws atoned for in the process.

Christ alone is the way to the Tree of Life, and the only way to have a blessed and an eternal relationship with God. The Law was temporary, and had to be stripped from the promises contained in Abraham's Covenant.

When Christ died on the cross, he gave up any need for Israel to participate, under the Law, in self-atonement. All the guilt of human sin died with Christ on behalf of those who choose to put their faith in him and to follow him.

Living by his Spirit enables us to both be like him and to be atoned by him. It is the fulfillment of God's promise of redemption. It is the only way back to the Tree of Life. Any return to the Law of Moses condemns us forever.

great read thanks for taking the time to be thorough in your thinking some want five sentences but I appreciate the thoroughness thanks again

I wanted to highlight a point you made that just occurred to me last night

“So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:24‬ ‭

I’m not sure if this will transfer as intended but when the law came we’re seeing the cherubim and flames keeping the way to God

“And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭19:16, 18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when the lord came he appears as the flaming fire meant to keep them away from life being ordained and mediated by angels

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the law was actually a fruit of the first transgression it was added because of mans sin and caused the appearance of God and his angels to be fire and flame and terror in the law because as you are saying the truth hadn’t yet come forth fulfilling Abraham’s promise for all people of the earth

really good post I enjoyed and felt edifies thanks again

Is it any surprise, then, that they play a great role in the Messianic work of redemption, guiding Jesus in his exclusive work of redeeming those who will accept him?