Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson
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Again, as I said once before, you at least seem to be consistent with your beliefs . . . !
Many people will tell me that if a person commits gross sin that is proof that they were never born again. Following that line of reasoning you must continue to do good works in order to have assurance of salvation. Because if you do not continue to do good works (or at least if you start doing too many bad ones) that will be seen as evidence that you were never born again.
But you insist that a Christian is capable and indeed may commit gross sins. But then you also say that "God would not allow a Christian to get to that level" of what I mentioned in the example. And you are now the second person I have known that comes though and clearly without reservation says that "God would kill that Christian and take him home early to heaven before it got that bad." Perhaps you think this is the "sin unto death" in I John 5?
I find that a quite fascinating concept that God will kill the believer who goes too far into sin . . . ! I don't agree with you on it, but again, at least you are consistent with you reasoning. (And I doubt you can show me a Scripture that clearly states that God will do this to a Chistian who starts sinning too much).
Well, I have a live real test case for you:
Bruce Gerencser is an evangelical pastor of some 20 + years turned atheist: by his own words he professed deep faith in Jesus, but now is an avowed atheist with a ministry to evangelicals!
I have just a few clips from one of his articles below: For more go to his website
The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser | One Man's Journey ...
https://brucegerencser.net
Lacy prayed for those of us who had raised our hands and then had everyone stand. As the congregation sang Just as I am, Lacy said, “if you raised your hand, I want you to step out of your seat and come to the altar. Someone will meet you there and show you how you can know Jesus as your Lord and Savior.” Much to the surprise of my friends, I haltingly stepped out from my seat and walked to the front. I was met by Ray Salisbury — a church deacon. Ray had me kneel as he took me through a set of Bible verses called the Roman’s Road. After quizzing me on what I had read, Ray asked me if I wanted to be saved. I said, “yes,” and then Ray said, “pray this prayer after me: Dear Lord Jesus, I know I am a sinner, and I know you died on the cross for my sins. Right now, I ask you to forgive me of my sins and come into my heart and save me. In Jesus’ name, Amen.” After I prayed the prayer, Ray said, “AMEN!” “Did you really believe what you prayed?” I replied, “yes.” “Then you are now a child of God, a born-again Christian.”
The next Sunday, I was baptized, and the Sunday after that, I went forward again, letting the church know that you, Jesus, were calling me to preach. I was all in after that. For the next thirty-five years, Jesus, I lived and breathed you. You were my life, the sum of my existence.
After moving, I quickly secured secular employment and began working at a local IFB church. For the next twenty-five years, I pastored Evangelical churches in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Jesus, you were my constant companion, my lover, friend, and confidante. I sure loved you, and I believed you loved me too. We were BFFs, right? Sometimes, I wondered if you really loved me as much as I loved you. Our love affair was virtual in nature. We never met face-to-face, but I believed in my heart of hearts you were the very reason for my existence. When I doubted this, I attributed my doubts to Satan or me not praying hard enough or reading the Bible enough. I never thought for one moment, Jesus, that you might be a figment of my imagination, a lie taught to me by my parents and pastors. I was a true believer. That is, until I wasn’t.
At age fifty, I finally realized, Jesus, that you were a myth, the main character of a 2,000-year-old fictional story. I finally concluded that all those times when I wondered where you were, were in fact, true. I couldn’t find you because you were dead. You had died almost 2,000 years before. The Bible told me about your death, but I really believed that you were resurrected from the dead. I feel so silly now. Dead people don’t come back to life. Your resurrection from the dead was just a campfire story, and I had foolishly believed it. I guess I shouldn’t be too hard on myself. Everyone I knew believed the same story. All of us believed that the miracles attributed to you, Jesus, really happened; that you were a virgin-born God-man; that you ascended to Heaven to prepare a mansion for us to live in after we die.
It all seems so silly now, Jesus, but I really did believe in you. Fifty years, Jesus. The prime of my life, I gave to you, only to find out that you were a lie.
If you ever want to talk to me, you know where I live. Show up at my door, Jesus, and that will be a miracle I can believe in. Better yet, if you can help the Cincinnati Bengals win the Super Bowl, that would be awesome!
If you can’t help my football team win a few games, Jesus, what good are you? It’s not like I am asking you to feed the hungry, heal the sick, or put an end to violence and war. That would require you to give a shit, Jesus, and if there’s one thing I have learned over the past sixty-four years, it is this: you don’t give a shit about what happens on earth. We, humans, are on our own, and that’s fine with me.
A Sinner Saved by Reason,
Bruce
Now, for Bruce, what is it?
(1) Was he never born again?
(2) Is he going down the road that God will kill him soon? (if so, according to your view, he still has the new nature, and would still go to heaven if he dies).
And Bruce is not an isolated case: there are hundreds of ones like this out there . . .
Many people will tell me that if a person commits gross sin that is proof that they were never born again. Following that line of reasoning you must continue to do good works in order to have assurance of salvation. Because if you do not continue to do good works (or at least if you start doing too many bad ones) that will be seen as evidence that you were never born again.
But you insist that a Christian is capable and indeed may commit gross sins. But then you also say that "God would not allow a Christian to get to that level" of what I mentioned in the example. And you are now the second person I have known that comes though and clearly without reservation says that "God would kill that Christian and take him home early to heaven before it got that bad." Perhaps you think this is the "sin unto death" in I John 5?
I find that a quite fascinating concept that God will kill the believer who goes too far into sin . . . ! I don't agree with you on it, but again, at least you are consistent with you reasoning. (And I doubt you can show me a Scripture that clearly states that God will do this to a Chistian who starts sinning too much).
Well, I have a live real test case for you:
Bruce Gerencser is an evangelical pastor of some 20 + years turned atheist: by his own words he professed deep faith in Jesus, but now is an avowed atheist with a ministry to evangelicals!
I have just a few clips from one of his articles below: For more go to his website
The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser | One Man's Journey ...
https://brucegerencser.net
Lacy prayed for those of us who had raised our hands and then had everyone stand. As the congregation sang Just as I am, Lacy said, “if you raised your hand, I want you to step out of your seat and come to the altar. Someone will meet you there and show you how you can know Jesus as your Lord and Savior.” Much to the surprise of my friends, I haltingly stepped out from my seat and walked to the front. I was met by Ray Salisbury — a church deacon. Ray had me kneel as he took me through a set of Bible verses called the Roman’s Road. After quizzing me on what I had read, Ray asked me if I wanted to be saved. I said, “yes,” and then Ray said, “pray this prayer after me: Dear Lord Jesus, I know I am a sinner, and I know you died on the cross for my sins. Right now, I ask you to forgive me of my sins and come into my heart and save me. In Jesus’ name, Amen.” After I prayed the prayer, Ray said, “AMEN!” “Did you really believe what you prayed?” I replied, “yes.” “Then you are now a child of God, a born-again Christian.”
The next Sunday, I was baptized, and the Sunday after that, I went forward again, letting the church know that you, Jesus, were calling me to preach. I was all in after that. For the next thirty-five years, Jesus, I lived and breathed you. You were my life, the sum of my existence.
After moving, I quickly secured secular employment and began working at a local IFB church. For the next twenty-five years, I pastored Evangelical churches in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Jesus, you were my constant companion, my lover, friend, and confidante. I sure loved you, and I believed you loved me too. We were BFFs, right? Sometimes, I wondered if you really loved me as much as I loved you. Our love affair was virtual in nature. We never met face-to-face, but I believed in my heart of hearts you were the very reason for my existence. When I doubted this, I attributed my doubts to Satan or me not praying hard enough or reading the Bible enough. I never thought for one moment, Jesus, that you might be a figment of my imagination, a lie taught to me by my parents and pastors. I was a true believer. That is, until I wasn’t.
At age fifty, I finally realized, Jesus, that you were a myth, the main character of a 2,000-year-old fictional story. I finally concluded that all those times when I wondered where you were, were in fact, true. I couldn’t find you because you were dead. You had died almost 2,000 years before. The Bible told me about your death, but I really believed that you were resurrected from the dead. I feel so silly now. Dead people don’t come back to life. Your resurrection from the dead was just a campfire story, and I had foolishly believed it. I guess I shouldn’t be too hard on myself. Everyone I knew believed the same story. All of us believed that the miracles attributed to you, Jesus, really happened; that you were a virgin-born God-man; that you ascended to Heaven to prepare a mansion for us to live in after we die.
It all seems so silly now, Jesus, but I really did believe in you. Fifty years, Jesus. The prime of my life, I gave to you, only to find out that you were a lie.
If you ever want to talk to me, you know where I live. Show up at my door, Jesus, and that will be a miracle I can believe in. Better yet, if you can help the Cincinnati Bengals win the Super Bowl, that would be awesome!
If you can’t help my football team win a few games, Jesus, what good are you? It’s not like I am asking you to feed the hungry, heal the sick, or put an end to violence and war. That would require you to give a shit, Jesus, and if there’s one thing I have learned over the past sixty-four years, it is this: you don’t give a shit about what happens on earth. We, humans, are on our own, and that’s fine with me.
A Sinner Saved by Reason,
Bruce
Now, for Bruce, what is it?
(1) Was he never born again?
(2) Is he going down the road that God will kill him soon? (if so, according to your view, he still has the new nature, and would still go to heaven if he dies).
And Bruce is not an isolated case: there are hundreds of ones like this out there . . .
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You ask a very valid and good question: It seems to me that if a person really comes to a deep faith in Jesus Christ as you state in your first paragraph - "living saving faith", "fully repented", etc. ! You state it clearly and well. -- that then this kind of person is not very likely to throw away a living vital relationship and friendship with the King of Kings and Lord of Lords
If you see the Bruce Gerencser I bring up in post #42 - I really wonder if he was ever really born again?! But he does say quite clearly that he "believed". I simply will not pass judgment on his former destiny. But I do believe that in his current clear state of unbelief he will go to hell and not to heaven when he dies.
If you see the Bruce Gerencser I bring up in post #42 - I really wonder if he was ever really born again?! But he does say quite clearly that he "believed". I simply will not pass judgment on his former destiny. But I do believe that in his current clear state of unbelief he will go to hell and not to heaven when he dies.
E
According to John..
1. Bruce, Who was with us at one time. and has now departed from us, and now denies the father and the son (he is a claimed atheist now) Was never of us.
2. I do not have to judge Bruce. Bruce judged himself. John said he was never of us, I must go with John.
3. This is not about sin. how many sins one has committed. what type of sin one is committing, or how often they are committing these sins, It is about their belief/lack of belief in Christ.
I would never judge a person who is in sin as a believer/nonbeliever. I do not know their heart. Only God does. I was a prodigal son for 5 years. no one would have looked at me and said, yes that guy is a believer in Christ. Nor could anyone look at me and say I am not a believer in Christ. Because I never lost faith in Christ. I lost faith in myself and my church and because of it. I left, Until God did what he promised he would do and came after me..
again, If Bruce had a sin issue, If he left the church because of that sin issue, But still believed in Christ, I would not and could not determine his salvation.
But that is not the case. In his own words.
t age fifty, I finally realized, Jesus, that you were a myth, the main character of a 2,000-year-old fictional story. I finally concluded that all those times when I wondered where you were, were in fact, true. I couldn’t find you because you were dead. You had died almost 2,000 years before. The Bible told me about your death, but I really believed that you were resurrected from the dead. I feel so silly now. Dead people don’t come back to life. Your resurrection from the dead was just a campfire story, and I had foolishly believed it. I guess I shouldn’t be too hard on myself. Everyone I knew believed the same story. All of us believed that the miracles attributed to you, Jesus, really happened; that you were a virgin-born God-man; that you ascended to Heaven to prepare a mansion for us to live in after we die.
This person DENIES the Son, and in doing so DENIES the father. And according to John, that makes him an antichrist
1 John 2: 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
And according to John, He was NEVER OF US
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
You see. If you read Bruce's words. He shows us that he was never of us. He made the statement
I finally concluded that all those times when I wondered where you were, were in fact, true. I couldn’t find you because you were dead.
I disagree with him, The reason he could not find Jesus was because he was never born again. He have believed jesus. but he did not have faith in jesus. And as such, He was never born again, For this reason. He never experienced Jesus, he kept searching but in his own words could never find him. And because if it, He left Just as John said, To prove he was never of us.
1. Bruce, Who was with us at one time. and has now departed from us, and now denies the father and the son (he is a claimed atheist now) Was never of us.
2. I do not have to judge Bruce. Bruce judged himself. John said he was never of us, I must go with John.
3. This is not about sin. how many sins one has committed. what type of sin one is committing, or how often they are committing these sins, It is about their belief/lack of belief in Christ.
I would never judge a person who is in sin as a believer/nonbeliever. I do not know their heart. Only God does. I was a prodigal son for 5 years. no one would have looked at me and said, yes that guy is a believer in Christ. Nor could anyone look at me and say I am not a believer in Christ. Because I never lost faith in Christ. I lost faith in myself and my church and because of it. I left, Until God did what he promised he would do and came after me..
again, If Bruce had a sin issue, If he left the church because of that sin issue, But still believed in Christ, I would not and could not determine his salvation.
But that is not the case. In his own words.
t age fifty, I finally realized, Jesus, that you were a myth, the main character of a 2,000-year-old fictional story. I finally concluded that all those times when I wondered where you were, were in fact, true. I couldn’t find you because you were dead. You had died almost 2,000 years before. The Bible told me about your death, but I really believed that you were resurrected from the dead. I feel so silly now. Dead people don’t come back to life. Your resurrection from the dead was just a campfire story, and I had foolishly believed it. I guess I shouldn’t be too hard on myself. Everyone I knew believed the same story. All of us believed that the miracles attributed to you, Jesus, really happened; that you were a virgin-born God-man; that you ascended to Heaven to prepare a mansion for us to live in after we die.
This person DENIES the Son, and in doing so DENIES the father. And according to John, that makes him an antichrist
1 John 2: 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
And according to John, He was NEVER OF US
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
You see. If you read Bruce's words. He shows us that he was never of us. He made the statement
I finally concluded that all those times when I wondered where you were, were in fact, true. I couldn’t find you because you were dead.
I disagree with him, The reason he could not find Jesus was because he was never born again. He have believed jesus. but he did not have faith in jesus. And as such, He was never born again, For this reason. He never experienced Jesus, he kept searching but in his own words could never find him. And because if it, He left Just as John said, To prove he was never of us.
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English Standard Version
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
New King James Version
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Berean Study Bible
because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified.
This often gets overlooked. Sanctification is a process started by our Heavenly Father, but is completed by us because we are given grace to perform it. Now, if a person ISN'T living a sanctified life..... they are living for the devil, following their fleshly desires. There is no middle ground.
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
New King James Version
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Berean Study Bible
because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified.
This often gets overlooked. Sanctification is a process started by our Heavenly Father, but is completed by us because we are given grace to perform it. Now, if a person ISN'T living a sanctified life..... they are living for the devil, following their fleshly desires. There is no middle ground.
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So, what did they "leave" then? I did read what was posted. And I explained why I disagree with your misread of the verse.
Your question is irrelevant. I explained what departed means. And I used an example from the Bible; Acts 15 and the believers who were members of the party of the Pharisees. So the Bible talks about believers who are in a cult, so to speak.
Would you consider believers who claim circumcision is necessary for salvation to be part of your church?
I said:
All faith in Christ for salvation is salvific.
You are just making claims. Where is your evidence? I gave you biblical evidence from Jesus' own words. Don't you believe what Jesus said?
John 5:24 - when a person believes, they HAVE eternal life. That means possession.
John 10:28 - Jesus gives them eternal life and they shall never perish.
To believe what you claim requires NOT believing what Jesus said in these 2 verses. Full stop.
Jesus did, and I believe what He taught.
Read the verse again. John NEVER said they weren't saved. Your opinion is just getting in the way.
Again, I explained what John was referring to, and I gave an example of believers who are in FALSE DOCTRINE, who finally left their fellowship.
Sure. Those who falsely believe that circumcision or water baptism is necessary for salvation would be hard pressed to STAY in any church that taught that such views were heretical. Of course they would leave.
I never met any of them, so I can't tell you who they are.
Charles Templeton, the evangelist who mentored a young Billy Graham, ended up denying God in His entirety. After leading many thousands to Christ.
I addressed EXACTLY what John said and was referring to. Even included an example to prove it.
That's your opinion.
But those who claim that ANY ritual (whether circumcision or water baptism) is necessary for salvation, it most certainly IS a doctrinal issue. I'm stunned at such a comment.
Your question is irrelevant. I explained what departed means. And I used an example from the Bible; Acts 15 and the believers who were members of the party of the Pharisees. So the Bible talks about believers who are in a cult, so to speak.
Would you consider believers who claim circumcision is necessary for salvation to be part of your church?
I said:
All faith in Christ for salvation is salvific.
You are just making claims. Where is your evidence? I gave you biblical evidence from Jesus' own words. Don't you believe what Jesus said?
John 5:24 - when a person believes, they HAVE eternal life. That means possession.
John 10:28 - Jesus gives them eternal life and they shall never perish.
To believe what you claim requires NOT believing what Jesus said in these 2 verses. Full stop.
Jesus did, and I believe what He taught.
Read the verse again. John NEVER said they weren't saved. Your opinion is just getting in the way.
Again, I explained what John was referring to, and I gave an example of believers who are in FALSE DOCTRINE, who finally left their fellowship.
Sure. Those who falsely believe that circumcision or water baptism is necessary for salvation would be hard pressed to STAY in any church that taught that such views were heretical. Of course they would leave.
I never met any of them, so I can't tell you who they are.
Charles Templeton, the evangelist who mentored a young Billy Graham, ended up denying God in His entirety. After leading many thousands to Christ.
I addressed EXACTLY what John said and was referring to. Even included an example to prove it.
That's your opinion.
But those who claim that ANY ritual (whether circumcision or water baptism) is necessary for salvation, it most certainly IS a doctrinal issue. I'm stunned at such a comment.
EPH 2:8,9 clearly teaches that salvation is by faith alone. v.9 is clear enough.
Of course there is Scripture.
In John 5:24, Jesus taught that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. That means the MOMENT one believes.
In John 10:28 Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
So, from the MOMENT one believes, they possess eternal life, and shall never perish.
One either believes what Jesus taught or they do not believe what He taught.
Of course there is Scripture.
In John 5:24, Jesus taught that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. That means the MOMENT one believes.
In John 10:28 Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
So, from the MOMENT one believes, they possess eternal life, and shall never perish.
One either believes what Jesus taught or they do not believe what He taught.
E
You tell me...
1 john 2: 19 They went out from us,
who are us? Are we not the church? the true believers?
I never complained about you not reading me, I am asking you to READ JOHNS WORDS!!!!
Its not irrevelant. John said they departed from us. He said they denied christ.
To add ANYTHING to what John said is to take him out of context and add to his words.
Acts 15 does not help you because that is NOT WHY THEY LEFT and it is NOT why they now deny christ
THEY LEFT IN UNBELIEF. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This has nothing to do with what John said, He did not say they tried to add circumcision to the gospel. HE SAID THEY LEFT US, THEY BEING DENIERS OF CHRIST!! UNBELIEVERS.
You continue to refuse to read what JOHN SAID!
so in your view. A person who DENIES CHRIST is saved?
Lets put your money where your mouth is, If I deny Christ I am saved?
Please show me the words "false doctrine in 1 John 2 vs 18 - 23. If you can show me this, I will admit i was wrong
1 John 2: 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
please show me in this statement where John is talking about people who add circumcision, or add baptism. or teach a different gospel?
John said they were ANTICHRIST. He said they were antichrist BECAUSE THEY DENY CHRIST.
why do you deny the very words of John himself and try to add things John never said?
1 john 2: 19 They went out from us,
who are us? Are we not the church? the true believers?
I never complained about you not reading me, I am asking you to READ JOHNS WORDS!!!!
Its not irrevelant. John said they departed from us. He said they denied christ.
To add ANYTHING to what John said is to take him out of context and add to his words.
Acts 15 does not help you because that is NOT WHY THEY LEFT and it is NOT why they now deny christ
THEY LEFT IN UNBELIEF. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This has nothing to do with what John said, He did not say they tried to add circumcision to the gospel. HE SAID THEY LEFT US, THEY BEING DENIERS OF CHRIST!! UNBELIEVERS.
You continue to refuse to read what JOHN SAID!
so in your view. A person who DENIES CHRIST is saved?
Lets put your money where your mouth is, If I deny Christ I am saved?
Please show me the words "false doctrine in 1 John 2 vs 18 - 23. If you can show me this, I will admit i was wrong
1 John 2: 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
please show me in this statement where John is talking about people who add circumcision, or add baptism. or teach a different gospel?
John said they were ANTICHRIST. He said they were antichrist BECAUSE THEY DENY CHRIST.
why do you deny the very words of John himself and try to add things John never said?
S
well I will differ on that one. Hitler was demonized. carnal sounds good compared to his actual involvement with the demonic
you don't think Hitler was any different from the 'normal' carnal person? okey dokey there is a difference between carnality and inspiration from the pit
anyway, I'm really not sure why you think you need to explain all of that?
the article was from got questions as the link provides. I think they explained pretty well
since the discussion appears to be about the Christian who is committed and the one who is carnal, I can't figure how Hitler has anything to do with that? he was never saved
you don't think Hitler was any different from the 'normal' carnal person? okey dokey there is a difference between carnality and inspiration from the pit
anyway, I'm really not sure why you think you need to explain all of that?
the article was from got questions as the link provides. I think they explained pretty well
since the discussion appears to be about the Christian who is committed and the one who is carnal, I can't figure how Hitler has anything to do with that? he was never saved
FreeGrace2 said:
So, what did they "leave" then? I did read what was posted. And I explained why I disagree with your misread of the verse.
You're really trying very hard to make more out of this than is warranted. Again, believers who get into false doctrine should NOT feel welcome in any evangelical assembly of believers. And it would be expected that they would leave them.
John didn't say what you keep claiming he said. He never said they were unsaved.
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.
22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
As I have already shown, the evangelist who mentored Billy Graham when he started out preaching in crusades ultimately changed his mind and didn't believe in God. That is basically a denial.
Also, anyone who clearly contradicts what is clearly stated in Scripture are obviously "against Christ" by denying His own Word.
So, in this context, even believers can be antichrists. When they reject the clear teaching of Scripture.
I believe you are guilty of this.
See above about how believers CAN and DO deny Christ.
I don't argue that. Charles Templeton "left the ministry in unbelief" too. That doesn't mean CT was never saved or lost his salvation. It means his faith failed. That's all.
So, what did they "leave" then? I did read what was posted. And I explained why I disagree with your misread of the verse.
You're really trying very hard to make more out of this than is warranted. Again, believers who get into false doctrine should NOT feel welcome in any evangelical assembly of believers. And it would be expected that they would leave them.
John didn't say what you keep claiming he said. He never said they were unsaved.
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.
22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
As I have already shown, the evangelist who mentored Billy Graham when he started out preaching in crusades ultimately changed his mind and didn't believe in God. That is basically a denial.
Also, anyone who clearly contradicts what is clearly stated in Scripture are obviously "against Christ" by denying His own Word.
So, in this context, even believers can be antichrists. When they reject the clear teaching of Scripture.
I believe you are guilty of this.
See above about how believers CAN and DO deny Christ.
I don't argue that. Charles Templeton "left the ministry in unbelief" too. That doesn't mean CT was never saved or lost his salvation. It means his faith failed. That's all.
Am I the only one who sees a problem with this sentence? It states that true believers can become believers who never believed in the first place. This is the kind of mental hoop that Calvinists must jump through on a daily basis. I have spoken to people who are living in sin and they tell me they feel like they are hell-bound. They tell me that their pastor assured them that they were born again in their youth and are therefore bound for Heaven no matter how they live from here on out. This Calvinism is devilish and those who teach it to others need to wake up before it is too late.
Of course I know that some of you will say that the above person was never born again in the first place, but the fact is that it is not difficult to receive salvation. It is freely and graciously given. Whosoever will may come.
Of course I know that some of you will say that the above person was never born again in the first place, but the fact is that it is not difficult to receive salvation. It is freely and graciously given. Whosoever will may come.
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Amen. I have patronized other's this way myself. It is a terrible habit and should be called out. We ought to address the content and message rather than messenger. Thanks for reminding me of this. There are some here who really do believe that they belong to a transcendent master class.
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1. Well I guess your right. I mean John did not know what he was talking about, I mean someone who claimed to be part of us but now denies Christ, I mean he had to have been saved, John was foolish to say he was never of us. Poor John. I hope you set him straight when you get to heaven
2. and poor Jesus, I mean he must me so untrustworthy that people have no reason or no proof to remain a believer, I mean to be someone that is unreliable and lets face it, a liar. No wonder so many true believer lose fath.
I am not a calvinist my friend, I have proven this so many times in this chat room, that fact you continue this shared of thinking you know something that is not true, and I am offended and shocked you could stoop this low in order to make me look bad, and make yourself look good. How dare you, you should be ashamed.
2. and poor Jesus, I mean he must me so untrustworthy that people have no reason or no proof to remain a believer, I mean to be someone that is unreliable and lets face it, a liar. No wonder so many true believer lose fath.
I am not a calvinist my friend, I have proven this so many times in this chat room, that fact you continue this shared of thinking you know something that is not true, and I am offended and shocked you could stoop this low in order to make me look bad, and make yourself look good. How dare you, you should be ashamed.
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There it is again. The old fall-back. Lets see what the verse really says...
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
They neglected to abide in the vine. They were not predestined for Heaven after all. This verse does not state that they were never born again. It does state that they went out out. Yes, I will agree that God knew that they would not end up in Heaven, but it is not our job to separate the wheat from the tares. It is our job to warn our membership to...
Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
They neglected to abide in the vine. They were not predestined for Heaven after all. This verse does not state that they were never born again. It does state that they went out out. Yes, I will agree that God knew that they would not end up in Heaven, but it is not our job to separate the wheat from the tares. It is our job to warn our membership to...
Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
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You need to read further
who are they?
John 2: 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
it is not that they did NOT abide in the vine, it is that they now deny Christ ,
they (antichrists who deny the son) went out from us, but they were NEVER of us
never means never, they were never of us, they were never what? Saved! Because if they were saved, they were of us, as children of God
who are they?
John 2: 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
it is not that they did NOT abide in the vine, it is that they now deny Christ ,
they (antichrists who deny the son) went out from us, but they were NEVER of us
never means never, they were never of us, they were never what? Saved! Because if they were saved, they were of us, as children of God