Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

Yep, when God float the earth, Noah still on the earth, but God protected him.

God protect Stephen, He give strength not to deny Jesus though people stoned him to death

God focus on spiritual protection, more than on physical protection, God didn't protect Stephen physically but spiritually

Yes, God strengthened all those that were destined to be martyred, but there are also examples of many that God delivered out of 'tribulation' such as Daniel, as well as Shadrack Meshach and Abednego, Ester and Mordecai, for a few other examples. It would seem that a succinct definition of 'tribulation' need to be reviewed in a closer examination, considering the this appears primarily to be where the shift between pre-, mid-, and post- occurs.

According to Merriam-Webster, tribulation means "distress or suffering resulting from oppression or persecution; also : a trying experience."

Wordnik submits:
n. Great affliction, trial, or distress; suffering; synonym trial.
n. An experience that test's one's endurance, patience, or faith. synonym burden.
n. A state of affliction or oppression; suffering; distress.

Which position envelops the entire context of the full definition of tribulation, which seems to me, that any 'coming out of' is to have patient enduring faith?

The GREAT tribulation (the last "1260 days" when Satan will be "having great wrath because he knoweth he hath but A SHORT TIME") is not the ONLY portion in which "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will not be present on the earth, but QUITE A BIT PRIOR TO THAT *also*... before the 7-yrs IN ITS ENTIRETY (not merely the 3.5 yr SECOND HALF, involving Satan "having great wrath...");...

... indeed, BEFORE Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:6 [2Th2:7b-8a in parallel language to Lam2:3-4], etc) by HIS opening the FIRST SEAL from His position in Heaven (at the START of the 7-yr period)<--it is ALL OF THAT that *we* are "KEPT OUT-OF" (that is, "the HOUR of the TRIAL mello/SURE to COME UPON..." [that's not referring to the MID-TRIB point in the chronology, when only the "1260 days" are yet remaining which "1260 days" pertain to "Satan" having great wrath, not the ENTIRE 7 yrs, see... which is what you are suggesting "pre-trib's" viewpoint is saying. IT ISN'T. I know, as I am "pre-trib" ])

Within the context of "Be Watchful for the Day," Luke 21:36 says, "So keep watch at all times, and pray that you may have the strength to escape all that is about to happen and to stand before the Son of Man."

The phrase, "that you may have the strength to escape..." suggests an activeness in escaping. What strength would anyone need to be (passively) raptured?

As a pre-tribber [me], I've stated that NONE of the Olivet Discourse [incl'g Lk21:36] is speaking of "our Rapture" event (or related), but of what takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (except for about 12 verses about the events surrounding 70ad: Lk21:12-24a); therefore v.36 is NOT "instruction" TO US, but to those finding themselves IN the trib (FOLLOWING "our Rapture" event)... i.e. tribulation period persons, who, if they heed this "instruction" will indeed "[actively] FLEE-OUT-OF" each and every thing coming to pass on the earth (DURING the Trib yrs) and to STAND BEFORE the Son of man (His Second Coming to the earth designation--to judge and to REIGN [FOR the earthly MK age])...

... which is CONTRASTING [same time-period] the "THEY" of 1Th5:3 who "SHALL NOT ESCAPE/FLEE-OUT-OF [same Grk word]" <--This verse [/passage] is [ALSO] speaking of the START of the 7-yrs [i.e. IN IT], not its ENDING, and speaks to their [/certain ones'] "ruination" throughout those 7 yrs (not an immediate "death" of them, or the like).

Hope that helps you see my perspective.



Bottom line, Luke 21:36 is NOT a "rapture-related verse"...

... and Paul had said (in that same passage I've pointed out, above), "10 in order that WHETHER WE MAY WATCH, *or* WHETHER WE MAY SLEEP [<--same two words as in v.6 of this SAME CONTEXT (NOT the "sleep" word of chpt 4!! [re: 'death'])], we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him" (a DISTINCT "with"-word from that of, say, Matt25:10's "with [G3326 - accompanying]"... which is in the context of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [aka the earthly MK age], by contrast [that is, in contrast to the context of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" being addressed in 1Th5])

If God would have removed Noah and his family from the earth, then there would currently be no one on the earth. Therefore, Noah and his family had to remain on the earth to repopulate it.

God also protected Lot and his family by removing them from the place that He was going to destroy, by fleeing to the small city of Zoar.

When the tribulation comes and the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments begin, there will be no arks to board and no small cities to run to, because God's wrath will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. This is also why we do not see the word church mentioned anywhere within the narrative of God's wrath in the book of Revelation, i.e. the church is gone.

People use these same examples as you did because they have not understood the severity of God's coming wrath. Yet, by the time that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled.

You know the sad thing about this is that, the belief of the church going through God's wrath and being gathered afterwards shouldn't even be a belief or teaching. It should be understood by God's nature that He would not put His bride through His wrath right along with the wicked. This comes from a lack of understanding regarding who the Day of the Lord will affect, as well as a lack of understanding of its purpose and severity. When we believed, we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. Yet they have still have us going through God's wrath, as though those things don't make any difference. Not to mention the fact that Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely.

Once the church has been gathered, then they will no that what we have been telling them was the truth. For that day will have closed on them like a trap.

Its hyper-spiritual hogwash for anyone to preclude themselves from Jesus' Olivet Discourse and still claim to be His follower.

No rapture.. will be alot of Christian's freaking out when they are facing death for Jesus

Why do folks think they deserve a free ticket out of here? Jesus Christ died a horrible death on the cross for all of us. The Apostles were martyrs except for John. Christian's were thrown to lions and eaten alive. There is no rapture. That's is a lie from Satan. Do folks think they are better and more deserving then the Christian's before them? And even our Saviour Jesus Christ..its selfish false doctrine. Founded by a freemason named Darby. Yall use those same scriptures always to prove the rapture. And those verses actually prove there is no rapture. Paul was talking about the Second coming. Not a secret coming. It fell right in line with what Jesus said in Matthew 24. After the tribuation. You can argue till your red in the face. There is no rapture for selfish Christians that are afraid to die for Jesus

The full and entire "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will be on the Earth during the entirety of the Great Tribulation. Some will die, and those that remain alive at the second coming will be raptured. That's` the only scenario found in scripture.

The church is never removed from the Earth and taken to Heaven. In fact Christ, the saints, the angels, new Jerusalem and eventually even God the Father himself will leave heaven to be upon the Earth with the Church. Claiming the church is removed to heaven before the Great Tribulation goes against everything we scripturally know about the future.


2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


Do not be confused about the return of Christ or OUR gathering to Him (the rapture), that it can happen at any moment because it will NOT happen at any moment. Paul is speaking about the Church and when Christ comes for her.

The doctrine of the pre-trib rapture states that Christ can secretly return at "any moment" yet Paul is clear to rebuke that doctrine saying not to believe anyone who claims that.


"nor by letter as from us"

Paul mentions even a former letter of his, because of a confusing statement he made concerning Christs return, the very verses that today's pre-tribbers use errantly:



1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.



Paul said it was misunderstood then, and it is still being misunderstood to this very day. Pauls second letter to the Thessalonians was meant to clear up any confusion which apparently was not successful.




2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Don't let anyone, even a fellow Christian deceive you otherwise! Christ's return SHALL NOT COME until the Apostasy happens FIRST. The Apostasy is when Christians stop worshipping Christ and start worshipping the antichrist. Christ will not return until that terrible thing happens, and not until the man of sin is revealed.

Paul speaks of a single return of Christ, not a two stage return. Again, Paul writes "Let no man deceive you by any means" so be sure that no man does.




Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.



Not a literal escape as in leaving bodily...we can "escape" the delusion and deception by having the truth in us.


1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


To bear it means to endure it!


The escape is NOT to literally be taken away...but God makes a way for you to BEAR the burden of temptation and deal with it, thereby overcoming and escaping it.




Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

We only escape the "temptation" of that hour...we don't escape the earth or any such thing.

Did Christ run and hide when satan tempted him for 40 days? Was Christ raptured out or did Christ face satan and escape the temptations satan brought forth? He escaped unharmed by enduring and bearing the temptation period! So will we!



1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

We arent going to literally escape the tribulation or this trial but we are meant to endure it.




2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That gathering is what is called the rapture, when Christ comes for the "church" and gathers them up. Paul is BESEECHING you to listen to him.



2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


He says NOT to be "shaken in mind" or confused, or troubled at all about it, that it is "at hand", not even letting a letter from Paul himself (the 1st letter to the Thess.) confuse you as to when the "rapture" happens.



To be "at hand" means at any time it could happen. Do not be confused that the rapture can happen anytime soon or at "any moment", because there are two things that have to happen first BEFORE the "rapture" happens. The first thing is the Apostasy, which is the tribulation period when the AC is worshipped by Christians and the whole world. The second thing that must happen is that the Ac must be revealed as having been that "man of sin" who we know is satan. The world must be made to understand that the AC had really been satan all along BEFORE the "rapture" happens.


Mark 13:24 But in those days, **after that tribulation**, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall **gather together his elect** from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This is why Christ spoke of the "rapture" of the elect as happening "after that tribulation".

Hello Jesusistheway64,

That is a false assumption on your part! Our faith is not based on the timing of when the Lord gathers the church, but is on the Lord himself. We who know that the Lord is going to gather His church prior to His wrath are always ready to take up our crosses, even unto persecution and death. Therefore, we would not freak out--as you say-- and abandon our faith if we were to face persecution and death on behalf of our faith in the Lord. If we found ourselves in that time period, we of all people would know what to expect and what to do.

The reason we preach the gathering of the church (Rapture) is because scripture teaches that the dead in Christ will rise first and then those who are still alive at that time will be changed immortal and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. The on-going contention is when this event takes place in relation to the tribulation period. We happen to believe that this event will take place prior to God's wrath, because scripture states that those in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and that because the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him (Jesus). Those who believe and teach that the Lord is going to gather His church after His wrath, do not believe this. If they did, then they would truly believe that the punishment (God's wrath) that he took upon himself truly did bring us peace, exempting us from God's wrath. There would be absolutely no reason for the Lord to send His bride through His wrath, since He has already satisfied it. Not mention the fact that the church is nowhere mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath.

Yea I would rather die for Christ than be jailed until Jesus 2nd Coming. Well I can do either, depends on God's plan for me.

Selfish Christians dont want to die for Jesus...they free ticket

You can right a book as far as I am concerned it will not change the fact that there is no rapture before the tribulation.. this should not even be a discussion.

This is most likely more of a Biblical misinterpretation than selfish or self-seeking Christians weaving a web of errors in order to somehow avoid a post-tribulation rapture. The Word of God doesn't need us to fully understand it to come to pass. God works entirely independent of what we believe or understand.

I may not agree with pre-tribbers, literally on anything, but I still see them as brothers and sisters. We all have flaws. I won't sit here and pretend I'm without faults.

Nonelects will have greater punishment for preaching false doctrine. That secret rapture doctrine harmed (had fear) me when I was a Baby Christian.
James 3:1
King James Version

3 My brethren, be not many masters (teachers), knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

You just answered your own question. It is because Jesus took upon himself the God's wrath satisfying it completely, as the reason why believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and why we will be get that free ticket out of here, as promise by the Lord himself.

The apostles and first century Christians did not suffer God's wrath, but suffered the trials and tribulations that Jesus said we would have because of our faith in Him, which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. God's coming wrath is not the same as those trials and tribulations as a result of our faith in Him. What is coming is God's direct wrath upon a Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Jesus said that He would keep us out of this wrath for those who overcome and for keeping the patient endurance of His word. It is just a matter of understanding the difference between the two.

Here we go with the Darby thing, which is a known false apologetic that people go to. I personally have never read anything by Darby. My information regarding the pre-tribulation gathering of the church comes purely from scripture and I can show you everyone one of them, what they mean and why.

We are appointed to suffer trials and tribulations because of our faith in Christ. But we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath because Jesus already satisfied it on behalf of every believer.

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Those who have the Son, the wrath of God does not remain on him.

Verse ONE is INDEED speaking of "our Rapture" event (but NOT His "PRESENCE / parousia' ON/to THE EARTH [<--THAT is in v.8b!! "the MANIFESTATION of His presence/parousia"]--but rather [v.1 speaks to] "to the MEETING of the Lord IN THE AIR" where ONLY "the Church which is His body" will be "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER" TO that location, not EVERYONE IN THE WORLD);

Verse TWO is Paul telling the Thessalonians not to be persuaded by anyone trying to tell them "[purporting] THAT *the day of the Lord* IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" (they already "KNOW PERFECTLY" [per 1Th5:2-3] the MANNER of its ["the DOTL's"] ARRIVAL... it is *LIKE*... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman [Jesus spoke of those, they are at the START of the Trib, not its END!]... and *LIKE* a thief "IN THE NIGHT" (<--THIS is not referencing JESUS HIMSELF / HIS PHYSICAL-BODILY presence / parousia TO THE EARTH / His "RETURN'. No! THIS is referring to "A TIME-PERIOD"... the ARRIVAL of THAT... the EARTHLY *time-period* [aka the Trib yrs] that PRECEDES and LEADS UP TO His return to the earth in Rev19 [i.e. His "MANIFESTATION of His presence/parousia" 2Th2:8b!])...

... so THIS ^ is the SUBSTANCE of the "false claim" that Paul is telling about in v.2;...

... Verse THREE then is Paul telling of ONE THING that must take place *FIRST* before THAT ^ TIME PERIOD ^ can be present to unfold upon the earth with its "man of sin" doing ALL he is slated to DO over the course of those 7 years (<-- "whose COMING/PRESENCE/ARRIVAL" [v.9a at its BEGINNING; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 & Rev6:2, etc]... "who SITTETH" [v.4 at its MIDDLE] and "whom the Lord SHALL DESTROY" [v.8b at its END]--ALL THREE! IOW, the man of sin is not "revealed" at the 2Th2:4 point in the chronology!! That is the HALFWAY point! )

Well, we have the scriptures that gives us detailed information regarding the gathering of the church.

And you are correct in that, it shouldn't even be a discussion, because the Lord is not going to send His bride through His wrath first and then gather her afterwards, which is what you and others are believing. What would be the point of the Lord telling us to watch and be ready if we were to still go through God's wrath the same as the wicked.