2 Thessalonians 2

lol yeah, I had to go back and read a few more posts to get up to speed.



Ok, I see where you're coming from. Well, you aren't wrong...Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD was indeed wrath. But I don't think that's the only wrath being referred to. I think he was speaking generally about wrath in the 1st letter. Let me see if I can make a good argument for why.

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To set the foundation, recall what Paul explains in Romans...


Romans 1:16-18
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


Romans 2:5-11
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


So just like salvation is offered to all people: first to the Jew and then to the gentile...so does wrath fall upon all unrighteous people: first upon the Jew and then upon the gentile.

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Next, who is Paul talking to in his letters to Thessalonians?


Acts 17:1-4
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.


1 Thess 1:1-4
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.


Romans 11:5-7 [brackets mine]
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant [of Israel] according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.


So the church in Thessalonica is comprised of:

- Remnant (elected) Jews (who believe the gospel)
- Believing Gentiles (grafted in)

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...So when we're reading these letters the audience isn't exclusively gentiles OR jews, and I think the language bears this out in certain chapters. For example, in 1 Thess 2:14-17.


1 Thess 2:14-17
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire.


Notice in this passage, Paul doesn't say "the wrath is come upon them (Jews) for forbidding us to speak to you (Gentiles)", rather the brethren - the audience; the "you"; the recipients of Paul's letter - are being distinguished from BOTH the Jews and the Gentiles. This is in harmony with the Almighty being no respecter of person; there are only the righteous and unrighteous.

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Now, notice how in chapter 4 Paul implores the mixed audience of believers not to behave as the Gentiles do. The unbelieving Gentiles are the point of comparison and remain so when we begin chapter 5.


1 Thess 4:1-18
Furthermore, then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


1 Thess 5:1-5
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.


If chapter markings didn't exist in the original text, who are the "they" & "them" being referred to here? Well, if we're literal then it's the gentiles who say peace and safety as they're the ones Paul was just warning his audience against living as.

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So in 1 Thess 2, wrath (i.e. destruction) comes upon the Jew for their sins...and in 1 Thess 5, sudden destruction (i.e. wrath) comes upon Gentile for living Godless lives.


2 Thess 2:8 [brackets mine]
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God [Gentiles?], and that obey not [Jews?] the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 2:12 [brackets mine]
12 For as many as have sinned without law [Gentile?] shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law [Jew?] shall be judged by the law;

YOU are the one who said the words are "related" (apo stasia / apo stasis [G646 (2Th2:3)] AND apospan [G645]); but now you say that can't possibly *mean* a geographical / spatial RELOCATION / MOVEMENT even tho this is exactly how Acts 21:1 uses your word [G645] (let's be consistent, here)

Apostasia means rebellion

e.g.

Joshua 22:22 The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,)

What's it all about?

I disagree that this is its ONLY definition.


I believe CONTEXT determines just "WHAT KIND" of departure is meant.


See posts I've made on this point (see esp. the last linked post, bottom paragraph):


Post #16 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/g...e-the-2nd-coming-prophecy.197951/post-4556986


Post #768 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4536227


Post #4 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/the-key-to-the-pre-trib-rapture.198174/post-4521594


____________

Post #1644 (different thread--SEE ALSO the bottom paragraph of this post... about Heb9:8-9a "which is A PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME") - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4495023

^ Yeah, and I believe "the departure" is that "plain vanilla" (straightforward, nothing else injected into it) meaning of it. Its most "basic" meaning / definition.

^ Yeah, and I believe "the departure" is that "plain vanilla" (straightforward, nothing else injected into it) meaning of it. Its most "basic" meaning / definition.




[as explained also here: Post #310 (different thread): https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4533045 ]

As for the Big Lie, here are the notes (my thoughts) that I've put together a time ago (I'm not God, so I may be wrong):

This is a remarkable set of texts where the context is disobedience and wickedness. The "big lie" that God will cause us to believe is the one where we will believe that we do not have to obey to be saved. And today's church seems to clearly be under this delusion. So, God is about to prove Himself by waking us all up in what I believe could be an instant. In the blink of an eye, our eyes and ears will be opened and the church will pull together as one body, and this will prove to the world that our God is Lord and none other. Unity has not yet taken place, but we are primed and ready for it. For we must come together very soon as God is about to Harvest this country.

The lie that God will get the world to believe, is the same lie that Satan told Adam and Eve, which is that they can disobey, and that it won’t be a problem with God. - This is the lie that we have always believed, for it is the very lie that the Devil placed upon mankind, thus it is the same lie that most "christians" live under today, that is until Christ places His Holy Hands upon our Hearts so that we can think straight.

Evmur, when viewing Matthew 24:29-31...

CONSIDER the following two issues:



1) Re: the word "Tribe / Tribes [G5443]" (i.e. Matt24:30) -

--Post #17 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4529877

--Post #578 - https://christianchat.com/threads/support-israel-yes-or-no-and-why.198879/post-4560498

--Post #2687 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4569706

--Post #2706 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4570050




2) Re: "gathered from the four winds" / "gathered from one end of the heavens [plural] to the other [plural]" (Matt24:31; i.e. gathered from the extremities, no place left out from whence they'll be gathered... and note that it is "Israel" who's been "SCATTERED" [or 'sow[n] unto the earth'], not the Church which is His body [/us]--see Lk21:24a "and they shall be led away captive INTO ALL THE NATIONS..."; see also Ezek37:11,12-14,20-23[Rom9:26/Hos1:10-11];etc etc... ; see Isa27:9,12-13[Rom11:27] as compared with Matt24:29-31...)

--Post #2780 - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4558544

I haven't read all your posts TDW, but are you saying that 2 Thessalonians 2 and the man of sin
do not refer to the first Century, but actually are somehow future events!!?

I was going by memory. Yeah, the statement begins at verse 29 but the word is in verse 30:






Surely you know that context is just as important as the words used. If I say I "died of laughter" I didn't literally cease to live because of a laugh just because I used the word "die".


Acts 20:29-31
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away [ἀποσπᾶν ; Apospan #645] disciples after them.

31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears


Surely Paul wasn't warning them night and day with tears - for 3 years - that others would arise among them to draw them away to another... geographical LOCATION !! lol C'mon.

Yes

... oh sorry I thought you was talking to me

I haven't read all your posts TDW, but are you saying that 2 Thessalonians 2 and the man of sin
do not refer to the first Century, but actually are somehow future events!!?

Perhaps you may recall my posts in the other thread, pointing out how I see:

--what Paul references by the words "[Who...] exalteth himself above all that is called god/God, or that is worshipped" (re: "the man of sin" individual / person), I believe Paul is purposely referencing Daniel 11:36,37 (the place where the chpt breaks from speaking of A4E [thru v.35], to now be speaking of a far-future "king" [v.36 onward]... same "[another] king" that Dan7:8,11,20,21,24,25,26 speaks of ("whose look is more stout than his fellows" v.20);

--and where Dan12:1-4[6-7] "continues on" from the latter part of Dan11 (referring there to the mid-trib-and-following events--with vv.1-4 not speaking of a "bodily/physical resurrection from the dead"), and ending with the END-of-trib events spoken of in both Dan12:13 ['stand in thy lot' (i.e. be 'resurrected')] and 12:12 ['BLESSED'--corresponding to about 8 other 'BLESSED' passages speaking of the 'still-living' saints ENTERING the MK age]);

--and where Jesus' reference to the "AOD [singular / singular] spoken of by Daniel the prophet" refers to Dan12:11 (also "singular / singular")


Hope that helps you see my perspective = )

YOU are the one who said the words are "related" (apo stasia / apo stasis [G646 (2Th2:3)] AND apospan [G645]); but now you say that can't possibly *mean* a geographical / spatial RELOCATION / MOVEMENT even tho this is exactly how Acts 21:1 uses your word [G645] (let's be consistent, here)

the word is "apostasia" which is a compound word of "apo" ("away from") and "stasis" (standing), to mean "drawn away from an initial state/position". Acts 20:29 uses a similar word to apostasia, "apospan" when referring to the actual deceivers who would appear within the flock to actively lead believers away from the truth.

Surely you know that context is just as important as the words used. If I say I "died of laughter" I didn't literally cease to live because of a laugh just because I used the word "die".

Perhaps you may recall my posts in the other thread, pointing out how I see:

--what Paul references by the words "[Who...] exalteth himself above all that is called god/God, or that is worshipped" (re: "the man of sin" individual / person), I believe Paul is purposely referencing Daniel 11:36,37 (the place where the chpt breaks from speaking of A4E [thru v.35], to now be speaking of a far-future "king" [v.36 onward]... same "[another] king" that Dan7:8,11,20,21,24,25,26 speaks of ("whose look is more stout than his fellows" v.20);

--and where Dan12:1-4[6-7] "continues on" from the latter part of Dan11 (referring there to the mid-trib-and-following events--with vv.1-4 not speaking of a "bodily/physical resurrection from the dead"), and ending with the END-of-trib events spoken of in both Dan12:13 ['stand in thy lot' (i.e. be 'resurrected')] and 12:12 ['BLESSED'--corresponding to about 8 other 'BLESSED' passages speaking of the 'still-living' saints ENTERING the MK age]);

--and where Jesus' reference to the "AOD [singular / singular] spoken of by Daniel the prophet" refers to Dan12:11 (also "singular / singular")


Hope that helps you see my perspective = )

Daniel is pre-eminently, although not exclusively, about the events up to AD70.
Daniel 12 is also about first Century events.
Too much fake eschatology in your posts bro/sis

Daniel 12 is also about first Century events.