50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

It almost seems as though they are brainwashed, in that they are programmed to reject the truth at every turn. In doing so, they continue with the false apologetics and ignore the scriptures that destroy their claims.

The purpose of our contention is not to be against them, but to get them to open their eyes to see what we God's word says about this subject. I don't know why we should be surprised though, for the word of God says that there would be those who would abandon the truth in the last days.

Can you imagine what they are teaching to a new believer? 'The good news is that you have forgiveness of sins and eternal life. But the bad news is, you still have to go through the coming wrath of God. Sorry! Now comfort each other with these words.'

It certainly wouldn't be a blessed hope, nor could we comfort each other with those words, if we were to have to through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which Jesus said would be a time of tribulation unequaled from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. And they think that the Lord is going to put His bride through that!

Exactly! But you already know the false apologetic that they came up with. They will call it the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven on earth, in order to do away with the fact that the wedding feast will take place in heaven.

"I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."

I'm asking, where is another mention of a "rapture" concept (in this overall context), aside from v.1's "our episynagoges unto Him" ? (in your view)



... nothing in your response covered what I asked from you.

Start from the beginning of this thread and read through several hundred pages. That question is been answered many many MANY dozens of times.

Pretrib VERSES are the declaration of the pretrib CONCEPT. This CONCEPT can only be fully understood in light of the entirety of the OT prophecies and the NT revelation of the mystery of the Church. Furthermore it must be understood in light of the clear statements AND ACTIONS Christ made during His first advent tenure on the earth.

Alternatively you can simply accept the pre-trib rapture on faith alone. You can't go wrong with that either because it is in fact true.

All those suggestions, whether 50 or 5000 of a pretrib rapture, look like pyrite to me.

A HUGE reason it is not:

Theosis is entry into the kingdom

It is not a mass event, each has their individual time

Revelation is about events around 73 and the Temple

The number stands for Nero

Michael is on the throne, the one who is like God

22:1-5 is beautiful

Thats your problem buddy....not mine.

I'm sorry
Hi TDW, I'm sorry, I keep reading it, but I simply cannot understand your point here.

Hi Ahawatukee,

So you are saying very simply:

the Lord comes, he takes down the bad guy, then he gets his guys and gals outta there, and then he torches the earth.

I didn't mean it to sound like a Bruce Willis film, but it just came out that way.

ah ok - this is good, very clear, thank you Ahwatukee.

The "false conveyors" (with a "false claim") that Paul is writing about in v.2... got that?... the contents of the "false claim" had/has nothing whatsoever to do with the Subject of "Rapture" OR "Christ's Second Coming [/ parousia / presence]". Clear enough yet? = )

These ideas seem quite sensible really. I'm not sure why TDW tries to separate the DOTL from the Lord's Coming.
Do you understand his/her point?

I still don't see why 2 Thessalonians 2 has to be part of this overall picture.

^ because "the day of the Lord" includes both of the following:

--a period of time [not merely 24-hrs in duration] of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth;

[followed by and INCLUDING]

--a period of time [not merely 24-hrs in duration] of BLESSINGs also unfolding upon the earth




And we know from Paul that its ARRIVAL is like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman...

... so FrGr2 had it correct (before he changed his mind) that "the day of the Lord" INCLUDES the 7-yr trib.




The "7-yr trib" aspect is the "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" aspect of it.

But it doesn't end there (at His Second Coming to the earth Rev19), no, it continues on to include also the entire MK age (so includes also the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect, *and* the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect... ALL THREE ASPECTS are what "the day of the Lord" consists of; you're missing a chunk of it... namely its "ARRIVAL" aspect [see also 2Pet3:10-12 as COMPARED with BOTH CHPTS of Isa34-35])

Root cause of that is reading the Bible entirely different, especially Revelation. Pre-tribbers usually maintain that Revelation is 100% chronological from front to back but that isn't possible.

There are numerous literary devices used in Revelation including repetition of parallel teachings that are reworded and repackaged using different imagery. There's also a lot of foreshadowing and figurative language that can be easily misunderstood.

It can be proven that the 6th seal in Revelation 6 describes the return of Jesus described in Matthew 24:29 (signs in the heavens - moon, sun, stars) and the day of God's wrath beginning.

I've talked with at least two pre-tribbers about this and they reject it. Not surprised.

False claim.

[Pre-tribber here ]

Pre-tribbers believe that the "SEALS-->TRUMPETS-->VIALS" are what is (for the most part) CHRONOLOGICAL (with only some "overlap" in the 7th Seal/1st Trumpet... and in the 7th Trumpet/1st Vial points in the chronology).

Pre-tribbers also believe there are chpts / sections that are like "interludes" in Revelation, that are for the purpose of further filling in of details.

The passage didn't say "in heaven". It said "in God's kingdom". And I noted that God's kingdom will extend from the Second Advent through eternity. iow, from the DotL on. And the wedding occurs on earth.

So read it again. You will not see Jesus saying anything about "in heaven". That's just your presumption.

Not only have you not shown any evidence for it, such as a verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

Take all this with a grain of salt - a BIG grain.

Walvoord was known as a Dispensationalist during his ministry of the mid-20th century. Right away a red flag should appear in front of your eyes. Dispensationalism is based upon the works of John Nelson Darby, a known consort of witches. But there's more.....

Dispensationalism is only the 19th century version of Roman Catholic FUTURISM, published by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera in the late 16th century. RCC Futurism was designed to obstruct the Protestant Reformation and Dispensationalism was a thinly veiled attempt to disguise demonic doctrine promoted as gospel. The Roman Catholic church is identified in the book of Revelation as the anti-Christ BEAST system of the End Times. Thus both Dispensationalism and Futurism work together to obfuscate God's desire to let truth be known to the saints of earth. They combine to form the Great Deception spoken of in Revelation.

but there's more to consider.....

The chief assertion of Dispensationalism & Futurism is the anti-Semitic theme of the tribulation.

As a review, the Tribulation is basically stated as a time of great difficulty for the earth in general and Jews in particular. The purpose of this time of trouble is supposed to serve as a goad for Jews to convert to Christianity - to join a church to be saved. The RCC has been consistent with this bloody attitude for two thousand years and the protestant church today marches in lock-step with this heinous hate speech. According to some spin offs of the theme, traveling murderers will criss-cross the earth with sharpened blades to sever the heads of Jews who refuse to convert. I'm making generalizations here, but the basic theme is definitely repeated in written word as well as sermons throughout the land.

Would any sane Jew believe this threat and accept Christ especially when civilizations have been trying to enslave and murder them for four thousand years? I think not, yet Christians buy this gimmick and buy books magazines and taped sermons by the ton.

At its root, both Walvoord and his idea of the Tribulation was born of the devil. It should be considered for the trash it really is.

Is Jesus Christ the author of love or the leader of a pack of head-cutting anti-Semites who demand Jews join the church or die? Are we to believe the language set before us or not?

This is the real question before us.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

^

[quoting] "...along with covenant theologians, Catholics acknowledge that the Church is spiritual Israel or, in Catholic parlance, the “new Israel” (cf. CCC 877)."


[end quoting; bold and underline mine]




____________

We do not believe that ^ .

Then why do you not cite or quote them? if you make claims, you need evidence from Scripture, which you don't have.

So you think Jesus uses a school bus to take resurrected and raptured believers to heaven? I wonder how many it will take. lol

Do you know what this reveals? your whole point is nothing but presumption.

OK, Mr presumption. Show me a verse that shows resurrected and raptured believers in heaven.

On the contrary, I read them and find that NONE of them mentions Jesus taking anyone to heaven.

Nonsense. 2 Thess 2:1 very clearly places the gathering (rapture) with the "coming of the Lord" (Second Advent) which occurs AFTER the rebellion and a/c revealed.