50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations [thilipsis] that ye endure:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation [thilipsis] to them that trouble [thlibo] you.

- So Paul is saying that it is good for the Thessalonikan Church to endure persecution and suffering, as God will repay their suffering with suffering.

7 And to you who are troubled [thlibo] rest with us, (anesis - take a breather, lit: have a break from persecution), when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

- Paul is describing the destruction of Jerusalem here, and he is telling the Thessalonikan Church to rest with the Jerusalem Church.

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord has already come (NIV).3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

- I suppose the point here is that Christianity was an offshot of Judaism until the Temple system was destroyed. Once the system was destroyed, and Judaism ceased to be a religio licita, the only competing religion tolerated by the Romans, then the Church and Judaism were severed one from the other. Hence we see the Church finally "assembled in Christ", epi-synagogue, rather than assembled in the synagogue, as an offshoot of Judaism.

Why would it bother Paul if the Church split off from Jerusalem ahead of time? Because the Church had a ministry to Israel for 40 years that needed to be honoured. It was simply God's decreed mercy time, and needed to be upheld.

Tell ya what. I'll just add the context and you can go from there.

2 Thess 2-
1 Concerning the coming (Second Coming) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord (beginning of Second Advent) has already come.

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (Second Coming) will not come until the rebellion (Tribulation) occurs and the man of lawlessness (Beast #1 aka a/c) is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

It makes no sense to view v.1 as being about Jerusalem. The overall issue is the a/c or Beast #1 and the Tribulation.

See 4,182 and try to fill in the parenthesis from your view. Thanks.

I'm not sure who is saying this ^ (whether these are your words or Abs' words ^ or someone else??), but again, this ^ is not the "pre-trib" argument. IOW, that's not what *my* point has been.

"coming [/parousia]" is used in both the contexts of His Second Coming to the earth AND in contexts of our Rapture IN THE AIR... so depending on context (in whose presence His "presence" will be, in any given context, and where His "presence" will be located).

In the case of 2Th2:1, where it says (also) "and OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM," this "coming [presence / parousia]" refers to [His] "TO the meeting [noun] OF THE LORD *in the air*" where WE/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" ('AS ONE') will be "caught up TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME]"... up there (and NO ONE ELSE), to location to where He will do His "SHALL DESCEND" (to *that* location).

In the case of v.8b, and His "MANIFESTATION of His presence [/coming / parousia]," *that* location is when He will be seen by "EVERY EYE" when He does His "RETURN" to the earth thing Rev19... at which point He will do His "OPENLY MANIFEST" thing (1Tim6:15 "which in His times He SHALL SHEW/OPENLY MANIFEST" / Rev19:16).

In either case, it is His "physical/bodily presence" ('coming / parousia')... but the context determines in whose presence His "presence" will be, and in what location.



This same "parousia [/presence / advent / coming /arrival]" word is used of "the man of sin" in v.9a, "whose COMING [parousia / presence / advent / arrival] is after the working of Satan...," which in this case the location is on the earth, the setting of where he will DO all he is slated to DO over the course of those 7 years (corresponding with the "shall come / coming [erchomai]" word, about the SAME PERSON, in both 1Jn2:18 and Dan9:26b--Recall what I'd mentioned about the phrase in 1Jn2:18 "YE HAVE HEARD" [like is used in Mt5:21,27,33,38,43--is making reference to actual OT Scriptures--the same is true here, about this particular "person"])... this "parousia / presence" refers to his actual physical presence of him (the man of sin / antichrist / "prince THAT SHALL COME / COMING").

You see SITTING IN A PEW on SUNDAY or SATURDAY, DOES NOT MAKE YOU AT CHRISTIAN.

You see I USED TO SIT in a Pew for most of the first 29 years of my life. Only after 3 attempts at Suicide, the last week of December, 1977, Did I feel tremendous guilt for my whole lifestyle, wept and pleaded with HIM for hours, then I prayed to surrender to HIM out of LOVE, I wanted HIM to control my life. Did HE ? ? ? Oh Boy, DID HE! That was BORN AGAIN! Prior to that I only took of space on a pew and daydreamed. It was not a Departure, I NEVER HAVE BEEN TRULY BORN AGAIN UNTIL after my three attempts at suicide. The Holy Spirit Lead me to Genuine Salvation.

What is the definitive difference between those that depart, and those who remain faithful and True ? ? ?


Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB)
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.


The Church that I grew up in NEVER TAUGHT BORN AGAIN, and actually thought teaching it, was a form of WORKS RIGHTEOUS. NO!
It is a work of the HOLY SPIRIT PREPARING THE HEART TO RECIEVE THE TRUTH. JESUS DID IT ALL, all to JESUS, I owe.

The only reason I did not get Saved AS A CHILD, is the Church did not teach BORN AGAIN. We are the ONE's who CONSUMED HIS WORD IN OUR HEARTS, and RECEIVED HIM IN OUR HEARTS. A whole lot more than just TASTED.

Anything less, is a pretend Christian.

I never led myself in the direction of Postrib--God led me there (I believe). I didn't seek it--it came knocking on my door. I have a long testimony about it.

So it doesn't really matter where I share it. I just share it when I see the idea needs to be presented, where false beliefs are being presented that contradict it.

I never worry about who will accept anything I say. I simply say what I believe God wants me to say. It's God's job to convince anybody of anything. People almost *never* listen to me.

So when people get alone with God, and God designs a person's circumstances around a testimony they've been given, they will change their minds. They want to believe in God and to obey Him. That's all that matters.

Where is the facepalm emoji when you need it?

Everything about Jesus' 2nd Coming in the Bible is Postrib. In the absence of any Pretrib doctrine, that is the default position. Not only so, but 2 Thes 2 is unmistakable Postrib Teaching, unless of course you confuse the language.

No, the Antichrist doesn't kill all Christians. Within his European orbit he does try to mark everybody as pagans who worship him. But that certainly doesn't mean he will do this world-wide, nor does it mean he will succeed in eliminating all believers.

Often the Bible speaks in "universal" terms as a general, and not an exhaustive, way. There are many proofs of this.

All of this teaching in the Bible would've been useless over the last 2000 years if it only applies uniquely in the endtimes. Though I do believe this will have a specific application under the rule of Antichrist in the last days, I think it presents a picture of times *throughout the Church Age,* in which Christians face these things regularly.

Christians have seen times of intense persecution, and have endure, and have prevailed. The Church was never completely stamped out!

Your problem is that the Church is nowhere to be found in Matthew 24, Mark 13 or Dan9 and 12.

Whatever feelings of leading you might have, they need to match the heading that have already been plotted in the Scriptures.

If you see the Church in any of these chapters you are on the wrong heading. Period end of story.

I have no idea - I do know that a knuckledragger has a longer distance between palm and face though

I agree. We should exalt God, and not ourselves.

Absolutely WRONG. There is nothing whatsoever in Scripture that supports a post trib rapture.
If you don't understand Daniels 70 weeks.........forget it you are lost.

All I hear from the post-tribbers is how they DON'T understand of the DOTL.
How they DON'T understand the 7 year Tribulation.
How they DON'T understand the man of sin.

On the other hand the pre-tribbers understand ALL OF THIS. Flawlessly faultlessly, to perfection.
No loose ends no gaps no voids no inconsistencies no incongruities. Impeccable perfection.

That isn't a problem to me, brother! In the Gospels, Jesus and his disciples are *still under the Law!* That means that at that time only Israel are God's People still. The Church hasn't even been born yet. Of course the international Church isn't in Matt 24, Mark 13 or Dan 9 and 12! These things are focused largely only on Israel.

The Church is *not* absent in the book of Revelation, although Pretribbers claim so. The book is specifically written to the Church. It's all about the Church. The Church is persecuted by the Antichrist. The language sometimes is OT, and uses those kinds of terms. So people get a false conception that somehow the Dispensations of changed, and that in the book of Revelation the Church is gone and now things have switched back to OT times and only Israel. That's certainly against what is said, namely that *Christians* are being persecuted by Antichrist, and not just *Israel!*

Boy, you really sound like you're open to change?

So you are now saying that the Temple of verse 6 is not the temple at Jerusalem?

In all honesty, brother, you seem too desperate to be inspired by God. Doesn't at all sound "Christian." Not only are you saying absolutely "wild" things, it's not even true. You don't even know me. I'm a Postribber, and I do understand the DOTL, the 3.5 year rule of Antichrist, and the Antichrist himself.

To say I'm "lost" because I don't agree with you doesn't sound very "brotherly." Think about it.

lol...no, you. Christ had had one first coming and will have one more. Pre-incarnate Christ's coming are not applicable, obviously. Really, what are you thinking??

lol, if they never followed Christ they wouldn't be falling away from anything. The text says they indeed do fall away.

I haven't seen a Shepherd's chapel person online in years. The pastor was in error that there is no rapture in the bible. There is simply no rapture before the Great Tribulation happens. The rapture happens at the second coming:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.

Rebellion is not tribulation but Apostasy.

I agree with the brother that Paul is *not* talking about Jerusalem. I can see how you get there, but it doesn't work for me either. I'm not sure why you even want to see it that way? It has to do with the 2nd Coming. Are you a partial preterist? I am not, but I do have a basis for saying that there are non-eschatological "comings" of God and of Christ, eg in 70 AD.