Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

But don't get me wrong, I love Robert Jeffress and Charles Stanley, and a few others. Not a fan of TD Jakes, Oral Roberts, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Joel Osteen, and many others. So I am not strictly Pentecostal, I do enjoy the Baptist views from Robert Jeffress and Charles Stanley.

Oral Roberts was a Methodist in his early career, but he was also ordained Pentecostal Holiness. He was as Charismatic as they come.

Whether Foursquare is occultic or not, McPherson's influence on Christianity is undeniable. We can see in the Foursquare logo her intentions at inter-denominationalism.



The four symbols in the corners of the image are the "squares" in Foursquare. The upper left and lower right represent mainline denominations: Christ the Saviour and Christ the Coming King. The lower left and upper right represent Pentecostal denominations: Christ the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and Christ the Healer. The image represents the union of Pentecostalism with traditional denominations.

Foursquare believes in the Father and Son and the Holy Spirit is their personal Spirit. So it's very much like today's Messianic Jews.

Interesting:

The International Pentecostal Holiness Church (IPHC) or simply Pentecostal Holiness Church (PHC) is a Holiness-Pentecostal Christian denomination founded in 1911 with the merger of two older denominations.[3] Historically centered in the Southeastern United States,[4] particularly the Carolinas and Georgia, the Pentecostal Holiness Church now has an international presence. In 2000, the church reported a worldwide membership of over one million—over three million including affiliates.[5]

Heavily influenced by two major American revival movements—the holiness movement of the late 19th century and the Pentecostal revival of the early 20th century[6]—the church's theological roots derive from John Wesley's teachings on sanctification.[7][8]

Several ministers who were raised in the Pentecostal Holiness Church have come to have greater name recognition than the church itself, such as Oral Roberts, an internationally known charismatic evangelist; Charles Stanley, a former president of the Southern Baptist Convention; and C.M. Ward, a former Assemblies of God radio preacher.[9]

I am not sure what that actually is. I was raised Pentecostal but not in this viewpoint.

In actual fact, speaking in tongues is a sign to unbelievers that they will face the judgment of God if they don't turn to Christ. Paul quotes Isaiah who said that even though they are presented with the sign, they still won't hear God's voice warning them of the judgment to come.
If people are looking for a sign that they are filled with the Holy Spirit, then they need to look for evidence that they have been transformed from being in bondage to the works of the flesh to the freedom of showing the fruit of the Spirit. If a person claims to be baptised with the Spirit and still is showing the works of the flesh, it might show that they have some sort of spirit but not the Holy Spirit.

Reminds me of what Jesus asked; "Why seek ye the living among the dead?"

Here is an account that you may have missed: A reporter accused Aimee McPherson of doing what she did through some hidden power source, and demanded to be shown to the basement to see it. When he got to the basement, what he saw was a group of grandmas passionately praying for the Holy Spirit to be active in the service and in Aimee's preaching. So, if the occult was at the basis of it, why would Satan want to destroy his own kingdom by having a group of praying grandmas call on God to get souls saved out of his kingdom?

Did you know that a person is unable to pray from his or her heart unless motivated by the Holy Spirit? A person in bondage to the occult cannot pray to God, and neither would they want to.

It is interesting that Pentecostal people pray like no others, and they get more souls into the kingdom of God than all others. Jesus said that a kingdom cannot be divided against itself, otherwise it would fall. This was after some accused Him of casting out demons by the power of the devil. Therefore, there is no way that Satan would support a movement full of praying people, winning tens of thousands of souls to Christ. He would do everything he could to oppose it - like put a lying spirit in the mouths of those who accuse Pentecostals of being in bondage to the occult.

Most of the opposition to Pentecostalism comes out of sheer jealousy - that Pentecostal churches and missions are winning more souls to Christ and achieving church growth that non-Pentecostal churches are unable to achieve. It comes from the attitude: "If we can't achieve soulwinning success, then they shouldn't either".

It's actually not the Pentecostal truth of the continuation of the gifts that was the problem there. It was the effectiveness of the chapel services pointing people to Christ and confirming people's faith in Him, that became a threat to the devil, so he stepped in and started to corrupt it and lead it in a direction the Holy Spirit did not intend. Because the leaders were inexperienced in the discernment of spirits, they didn't recognise the change of emphasis. Much like Samson who through disobedience lost his God-given strength and didn't realise it and thought he was doing to defeat the Philistines as before and found to his dismay that he had no defence and was captured.

So Pentecostalism was not to blame in your case. It was because the devil deceived the leaders to step away from their original neutral stance which was making the services effective for a range of people, thereby alienating those who didn't want to be involved in the type of Pentecostalism that was being served up to them. This is what the devil does - he takes a good thing and goes overboard with it, killing the golden goose in the process.

I did miss that. By any chance then are you a Member of the FourSqare Movement?
I mean, having similar beliefs as the Messianic Jews, who do not believe the Trinity, but do believe there is the Father and Son and they share the same spirit known as the Holy Spirit. And yielding Miracles like she was known for due to the point you made, praying Grandma's. I mean, I would think they prayed in the name of Yeshua (Jesus) like Trinitarians and Oneness. And oddly enough, I've seen Miracles in the Trinity Churches just as much in the Oneness Churches. Evidently, the secret to all 3 idealism's is simply praying in the Name of Yeshua?

I am not Foursquare. I am Presbyterian with a sound Puritan Reformed theology along with a sound belief in the continuation of the Spiritual gifts. I believe that the Oneness doctrine is a heresy, but with all churches that contain error, there are genuine Christian converts who have their faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. So, believers can have things wrong in their heads while being true to the Lord in their hearts. Paul demonstrated this in his support of the hard core of the Corinthian church in spite of the many errors, party spirit, and spiritual pride that existed among many of its members.

In his comments to the Corinthian church, Paul said that the only foundation that can be laid is Christ Himself. Without Christ being the foundation, there can be no foundation at all, no matter what is built upon it. This shows that some cults might appear grand, but because the foundation is not Christ, the great religious structure is built on a rotten foundation and it is only a matter of time when it will fall to pieces.

Paul also said that although the foundation can be securely in Christ, different structures can be built on it. It seems ridiculous to build a cheapo structure on a golden foundation. When Jesus comes again, the fire of the Holy Spirit will test to see if the structure is going to stand the test, or will it be burned up.

What this shows me that if the foundation of a church is Christ, and part of the structure built on it contains wrong doctrine such as the Oneness doctrine, then those "wood, hay, and stubble" structures will burn away, leaving the "gold, silver, and precious stones" left.

This explains why there are miracles in Oneness churches as well as Trinitarian ones. God honours faith in Christ as the foundation, and in a church that has a mixture of wheat and tares in it, He sees the bucket as being half full instead of half empty. Therefore, if there are miracles in a church where heresy is present, then it shows that God is honouring the faith of those He sees are His.

It comes right down to the individual believer - whether the foundation of his or her faith is Christ, and then the responsibility is on them what structure they decide to built on that foundation. Some structures will be burned up and the believer will be saved as of by fire. Other structures will survive the fire and the believer will be rewarded.

What I do know is that the Foursquare, and Presbyterian structures, along with all other man made denominational structures will be burned up, and we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ as individual believers to give our personal account of what we built for ourselves on the foundation of Christ.

Our church in New Zealand used to get the magazine put out by the Oral Roberts organisation. He became Methodist in 1970 or thereabouts. I don't remember what his reasons were. I remember that many ardent Pentecostals thought he had deserted the ship and gone back into compromise. It was around the time he founded the Oral Roberts University. Perhaps he wanted the university to attract a wider range of students instead of being viewed as a "narrow" Pentecostal institution.

In the 1990's, there was a great deception called "The Toronto Blessing". It was lying signs and wonders that indeed deceived many of the elect. I asked the Lord why so many were deceived. He said, "They know Me as the Way, they know Me as the Truth. They do not know me as the Life". That floored me. Not at all what I imagined the problem to be. And I realised that I was not all that clear myself. Now I do know.

God is real and does speak to His people. I have been born again for about 50 years. In that time, God has spoken to me, in my heart, not my mind, about 40 times. Usually it is brief, without explanation, and yet it makes perfect sense.

I asked once why so many people fell away after seeming to be genuine believers and zealous for the Lord. He just said to me, "Parable of the sower". That was it and that was enough. I'm one of those people who never use one word when 10 will do. It amazes me how God is so economical with words. The Bible would be 10 times as big if I had a hand in writing it.

My great concern is for the Body of Christ. I cling to the words of Jesus that He is building His church. It is glorious in God's sight and there will be no history of sin and failure. God will erase all that in the precious blood of the Lamb. The church seems to be in great decline. That is not true. What we are seeing is the end of "Christianism." It's Christianity as a religion without any real life. So old denominations are crumbling and that is a good thing. The real church will emerge as it is in the third world, in power and reality instead of weakness and outward appearances.

Those are lying signs and wonders and not of God. In most revivals through history, Satan has sought to intersperse the false with the true. The ignorant are mislead and accept the false as truth. The sceptical reject the true with the false. In recent years, the false has become more entrenched, leading to outright false doctrine, not just false signs. This includes teaching that tongues is essential evidence of salvation and that the Holy Spirit is Lord and Jesus is no longer relevant. We should not be surprised. Paul warns us to watch out for the false.

By no means does this invalidate the real gifts of the Spirit.

Being saved from sin is only a small part of salvation. Lord Jesus said that He came that we might have life. GK Chesterton said it well: "Jesus did not come to make bad people good. He came to make dead people alive".

One reason that there are so few miracles today is that there is so much doubt and unbelief. Lord Jesus had the same problem with the city of Nazareth. The other major problem is disunity. God's blessing on on unity! Psalm 133. And the blessing is "life for evermore".

Yea, we actually had some of the "Laughing Movement" out of Brownsville, Florida in our own little church, here in the Pacific NW. I never bought into it, though it was quite amusing. Maybe God tolerated a little good humor??

I like everything you say. I also am "wordy." Watchman Nee, who I love to quote, used to say that revelation came by just a few words. Those few words could open up an entire message. I think that's true. Sometimes we try to beat a message into someone, when all we really need to do is say it. The recipient is responsible for receiving it or not.

On the other hand, Nee used to say that the burden has to be lifted, before moving on. If you sense you're not getting through, and the recipient may be open, you need to persevere, humbly. The burden can eventually be lifted when the message is delivered.

Yea, the sower has to find useable dirt. Just the right conditions have to exist for a seed to grow and mature properly. So many jobs need to be done, and every Christian has a job.

But life isn't all about work. Consider Martha and Mary--Mary chose the better way. Take care, and thanks for the continuing conversation. I enjoy it!

this is true yet, many Pentecostal churches are becoming less pentacostel. the only reason for sign and wonder to happen today is to testify that Jesus is alive and risen from the Dead. Acts 1:8 and Acts 4:33 Mark 16:16-20 MATTHEW 28


If you are in street ministry you will see and experience many things that most well-educated people who think they can analyze a demon possess a person and explain medially why they are doing what they are doing, yet the medical term will not set them free, Jesus does. Califonia has almost 40 % of the nation's homeless and it is a great demonic attack on people carried out by those who are demonized like the leaders of the Democratic Party and GOP in Califonia.

IF you do not have the power of God while ministering in CA you are trying to do it yourself. You will just another state plan giving out free food. The State of California has singled out the Christian church and was sued for doing so.

You try battling addiction where the State leadership does this:

1. force closes churches ( only Christian) mosques were left open.
2. give out money and free weed to the homeless and needles
3. put up in 4-star hotels
4. provided food and open street living meaning you can go to the public park or city street and make a little tent or cardboard HOME AND LIVE THERE
5. prevent Christian from leading those to christ with laws against " Conversion therapy ".
6. make illegal to call sin "sin"
7. shut down many Christian daycare/preschool centers because the state now offers free daycare in the Preschool and what they call TK's programs. mom

The state of California has made the church obsolete and is doing what the church used to do BUT removed the Jesus Christ-centered program out of it.


Please try battling that with just a good sermon, or Bible study or a deeper understanding of the Book of Romans.

A devil does not care about your deeper meaning of scriptures They only listen to those who have the authority to use the name of Jesus. Those covered in the Blood, those empowered by the Holy Spirit. Those who stand up against ungodly leadership not follow in line and place the mask on and close church doors but Walmart can stay open.

One can have a form of godliness yet still deny the power of God. That was then not for today Well good luck.

The difference between a state ran "plan" and the church was Christ and the power of God and The Word of God. Without them, you are just giving out happy meals.

Some of the best examples of your post come from 2 perfect examples.

1) When Christ Healed, He did one of 2 things.
1A) He would tell the inflicted/suffering person, Your sins are forgiven and the person became healed.
2A) He would cast out Demons and they became healed. (the DEAD He simply brought back to life)

2) the Early Pentecostal Movement of the late 1960's early 1970's into the mid 1980's knew Satan was behind [Depression/Anxiety/Mental Illness/Psychological Issues/Deformities/etc] and would go into prayer against the Source.

By the mid 1990's, people stopped getting healed from the Church Body because suddenly SCIENCE changed the mindsets with labeling problems and offering prescription treatments. A preacher went from being able to claim someone was Demonic attack, Demonic Possessed, to now it was being covered up with Narcissism, Psychological Disorder, skitzo, Bi-Polar, Psychopathic, and today's versions are even more deeply covered up like Same Sex Orientation was (Born that Way), Transgender has the ability to choose which sex (male/female) like God made a mistake at their birth when they were Y or X Chromosome.

All of that still is, has always been either an attack by Satan or for many Demon Possessed.

With the pad and pen writing out Prescriptions, are you aware of just how many people you pass by on any given day that are actually Demon Possessed but Society has deemed them Normal under Medical Care?

They claim Mental Illness or some form of Psychological Disorder effects over 50% of the entire Population World Wide. At 8 Billion People, that's at least 2.7 Billion people literally walking around that are Demon Possessed.

Satan has done his job well and Society as a Whole has bought into it!

yes, we became secular in our outreach programs to remove Jesus. They did this with Teen Challenge a Christ-centered Program with over a 70 % success rate. NO Government program ever had that kind of success and the ones who did have some models Christ-Centered programs bur REMOVED Christ from it. and still saw some success because our program is also Word of God-based.

WE were too embarrassed with the overly expressive Pentecostals and the street missions they are still doing today. Kind of like the fieldworker child ashamed of their parent who worked the fields to provide for their families. Yet tried to take what worked and make it secular.