Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

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Wansvic

Wansvic

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#161
Nov 27, 2018
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#161
ResidentAlien said:
Is this supposed to be a defense of "latter rain?" I'm not sure what you mean.
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This was in reference to your post #105. Clearly scripture speaks to what occurs when a person receives the Holy Ghost. This was first addressed by the Apostle Peter immediately after the 120 experienced the infilling of the Holy Ghost sent from Heaven on the Day of Pentecost:
"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:4

"This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 2:32-33
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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#162
Nov 27, 2018
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#162
Just curious do your Bibles state the following?

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:4

"This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 2:32-33
 
Aidan1

Aidan1

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#163
Mar 17, 2021
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#163
Wansvic said:
Scripture as provided shows that Pentecostal beliefs began on the Day of Pentecost. And these truths have continued throughout history and will continue until Jesus returns.
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Nope, your claime that receiving the Holy Spirit produces the gift of speaking in tongues is a man made false doctrine.
This is reportet in Act as sign for the jews, that Jesus came also for gentiles, samaritians and disciples of John the Baptist. thats right. But it was never taught to any believer!
 
Aidan1

Aidan1

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#164
Mar 17, 2021
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#164
CS1 said:
excuse me I have asked you. and you don't if you did not google what saved is in Greek you would not have known.
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O sorry, i have dictonarys and concordances and also NT word by word translation greec/german. And long time ago i atteded bible school, so i am not depend on Google.

Ore you expect that i have learned in school old greec? Also its not my mother language.
 
CS1

CS1

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#165
May 23, 2012
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#165
Aidan1 said:
O sorry, i have dictonarys and concordances and also NT word by word translation greec/german. And long time ago i atteded bible school, so i am not depend on Google.

Ore you expect that i have learned in school old greec? Also its not my mother language.
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I'm sure you are because you did not know it.
 
S

SophieT

Guest
#166
#166
Evmur said:
quite so

Gifts and fruits are different things, but God does not revoke His gifts ... you can find exactly the same goings on in other denominations sadly, but the spotlight is not on.

People ought to be taught the world of sorrow they are heading for if they abuse the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They will never be damned but they will pang themselves with many sorrows.
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I'm wondering if those that abuse and profit are not the ones saying 'but Lord'...when they get turned away
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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#167
Nov 27, 2018
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#167
CS1 said:
IT was Jesus who said you shall receive Power after the Holy Spirit comes upon you. You do not understand upon over in you.

Every person who is saved has the Holy Sprit in them, yet not all have been empowered yet due to the Holy Spirit has not come upon them to do A WORK.

iT WAS Jesus WHO SAID IN THE Gospel of John chapter 14

17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

He will be with you and in you. You can see this throughout the Bible in both Old and New Testaments

The Spirit of the Lord came upon David, Samson, Elijah Moses. The Prophet Joel in chapter two is talking about that very thing.

FYI King Saul and Samson both had the Holy Spirit come upon them YET The Holy Spirit the Spirit of the Lord departed from them both.
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Your understanding that the Holy Spirit was dwelling with the people and would later be in them is not accurate in light of what Jesus said in John 16:7. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would not come until after Jesus departed.
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." John 16:7 That begs the question to whom was Jesus referring that they knew? Who was dwelling with them? And who would be in them?
 
S

SophieT

Guest
#168
#168
ResidentAlien said:
True, it says: Don't forbid speaking in tongues; but, it doesn't say: Don't forbid speaking gibberish, which, I'm sorry to say, is what passes for tongues these days.
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well gibberish might be gibberish, to you and sometimes actual gibberish (I once heard someone faking speaking in tongues while in a prayer circle and myself and the others in the circle did speak in tongues, but the minute this person started, we all opened our eyes and stared at each other. We knew the difference...the Spirit of God in us, knew the difference)

As it is, as yourself and others refuse to acknowledge the different types and usages of tongues, your excuses are without recourse other than out and out denial. That is not a good nor a Godly path, to be on.

Further, I honestly do not understand why all you anti-tongues folks, go OUT OF YOUR WAY to speak against tongues and create most of the anti-tongues threads in this and other forums as well

That alone, is an interesting phenomenon in and of itself. you really do not have a leg to stand on when you state what passes for tongues these days is gibberish ESPECIALLY taking into account Paul also states:

For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unproductive. I Corinthians 14:14

we pray to God (hopefully), and not at other people, so He keeps track of all languages including those some call gibberish. when I hear some languages, I think they sound made up...but they are real languages. you are simply playing with dynamite
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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#170
Nov 27, 2018
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#170
CS1 said:
YOu don't understand the Holy Spirit. No one said you don't have the Holy Spirit. YOu think Pentecostals are, No we are not.

IT was Jesus who said you shall receive Power after the Holy Spirit comes upon you. You do not understand upon over in you.

Every person who is saved has the Holy Sprit in them, yet not all have been empowered yet due to the Holy Spirit has not come upon them to do A WORK.
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Every person who has received their spiritual rebirth is indwelt by the Holy Ghost. The indwelling of the Holy Ghost is required for both the rebirth experience and empowerment required do fulfill one's ministry. Remember it was Jesus who said stay and wait for the promise (Holy Ghost) before attempting to go forth into ministry. (Luke 24:47) Sadly, many have not followed Jesus instructions.

Paul made it clear that a person does not receive the Holy Ghost the moment they believe. The infilling of the Holy Ghost is something that takes place afterward. In Acts 19:1-6 Paul asked this question, Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? His question proves the events take place separately. He then tells them they must believe in Jesus sacrifice, he then baptizes them in water in the name of the Lord Jesus, and after that he lays hands on them and they receive the Holy Ghost. In this case, both belief and water baptism precede God filling them with the Holy Ghost.

This is also seen in the story of the Samaritans. They believed Philip's message but they did not receive the Holy Ghost. One has to ask how did the people know the Samaritans had not received the Holy Ghost? What was missing? This story points out the people were expecting some outward evidence of the infilling. Notice they sent for Peter and John to assist in the Samaritans receiving the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8:12-18) It is stated that when Simon saw the Samaritans receive the Holy Ghost he offered money to receive it as well. It is obvious again that Simon saw outward evidence of the event.

How can a person be certain they have received the Holy Ghost? The only evidence of a person receiving the Holy Ghost in the Bible is speaking in tongues. Why? God's truth is always witnessed 2 to 3 times in scripture.
 
Aidan1

Aidan1

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Mar 17, 2021
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#171
Wansvic said:
Every person who has received their spiritual rebirth is indwelt by the Holy Ghost. The indwelling of the Holy Ghost is required for both the rebirth experience and empowerment required do fulfill one's ministry. Remember it was Jesus who said stay and wait for the promise (Holy Ghost) before attempting to go forth into ministry. (Luke 24:47) Sadly, many have not followed Jesus instructions.

Paul made it clear that a person does not receive the Holy Ghost the moment they believe. The infilling of the Holy Ghost is something that takes place afterward. In Acts 19:1-6 Paul asked this question, Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? His question proves the events take place separately. He then tells them they must believe in Jesus sacrifice, he then baptizes them in water in the name of the Lord Jesus, and after that he lays hands on them and they receive the Holy Ghost. In this case, both belief and water baptism precede God filling them with the Holy Ghost.

This is also seen in the story of the Samaritans. They believed Philip's message but they did not receive the Holy Ghost. One has to ask how did the people know the Samaritans had not received the Holy Ghost? What was missing? This story points out the people were expecting some outward evidence of the infilling. Notice they sent for Peter and John to assist in the Samaritans receiving the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8:12-18) It is stated that when Simon saw the Samaritans receive the Holy Ghost he offered money to receive it as well. It is obvious again that Simon saw outward evidence of the event.

How can a person be certain they have received the Holy Ghost? The only evidence of a person receiving the Holy Ghost in the Bible is speaking in tongues. Why? God's truth is always witnessed 2 to 3 times in scripture.
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This is false teaching. F.e. if this would be true. Then the first person with speaking in tongues in australia would be a woman in 1909. Ergo no believer is to found in australia before 1909.
As I said, according your claime.
Before Topeka, you cant find this practise nor in the Holyness movement, nor in any denomination, but in cults like mormons ore new apostolic church.
Nor Wesley nor any of the other from God used preachers taught this.
Btw, who is behind the tongue speakers in the cults i mentioned? Is it the Holy Spirit?
 
Aidan1

Aidan1

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Mar 17, 2021
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#172
Wansvic said:
Every person who has received their spiritual rebirth is indwelt by the Holy Ghost. The indwelling of the Holy Ghost is required for both the rebirth experience and empowerment required do fulfill one's ministry. Remember it was Jesus who said stay and wait for the promise (Holy Ghost) before attempting to go forth into ministry. (Luke 24:47) Sadly, many have not followed Jesus instructions.

Paul made it clear that a person does not receive the Holy Ghost the moment they believe. The infilling of the Holy Ghost is something that takes place afterward. In Acts 19:1-6 Paul asked this question, Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? His question proves the events take place separately. He then tells them they must believe in Jesus sacrifice, he then baptizes them in water in the name of the Lord Jesus, and after that he lays hands on them and they receive the Holy Ghost. In this case, both belief and water baptism precede God filling them with the Holy Ghost.

This is also seen in the story of the Samaritans. They believed Philip's message but they did not receive the Holy Ghost. One has to ask how did the people know the Samaritans had not received the Holy Ghost? What was missing? This story points out the people were expecting some outward evidence of the infilling. Notice they sent for Peter and John to assist in the Samaritans receiving the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8:12-18) It is stated that when Simon saw the Samaritans receive the Holy Ghost he offered money to receive it as well. It is obvious again that Simon saw outward evidence of the event.

How can a person be certain they have received the Holy Ghost? The only evidence of a person receiving the Holy Ghost in the Bible is speaking in tongues. Why? God's truth is always witnessed 2 to 3 times in scripture.
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Paul said in Romans 8,16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.
So we dont need to speak in tongues for to know that we have the Holy Spirit.
When we received Him we know it.

And as I said. Your teaching is eisegese, but not to find taught in the bible.
 
S

SophieT

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#173
#173
Aidan1 said:
Paul said in Romans 8,16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.
So we dont need to speak in tongues for to know that we have the Holy Spirit.
When we received Him we know it.

And as I said. Your teaching is eisegese, but not to find taught in the bible.
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huh. Apparently, God didn't get the memo. I guess that explains why Paul went on at some length without God telling him "whoah Son! Y'all addressing tongues too much. Ain't nobody need to be doin that.'
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

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#176
Apr 21, 2021
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#176
Wansvic said:
This was in reference to your post #105. Clearly scripture speaks to what occurs when a person receives the Holy Ghost. This was first addressed by the Apostle Peter immediately after the 120 experienced the infilling of the Holy Ghost sent from Heaven on the Day of Pentecost:
"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:4

"This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 2:32-33
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Ahh, okay.

What would be your response if I ask you what Paul meant in 1 Corinthians 12:30: "Do all speak with tongues?" It's a rhetorical question because, based on the context, the answer is obviously no.

And even if they did speak in other tongues on the Day of Pentecost, it doesn't necessarily follow that people today still have the genuine gift.
 
DeanM

DeanM

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May 4, 2021
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#177
How many recieved the spirit during Pentecost? Hundreds? Thousands? Did they all speak in tongues? How about Martin Luther, Matthew Henry and the other great bible scholars? All tongue talkers?
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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#178
ResidentAlien said:
Ahh, okay.

What would be your response if I ask you what Paul meant in 1 Corinthians 12:30: "Do all speak with tongues?" It's a rhetorical question because, based on the context, the answer is obviously no.

And even if they did speak in other tongues on the Day of Pentecost, it doesn't necessarily follow that people today still have the genuine gift.
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Paul's comment you mention is in the context of Spiritual gifts; specifically tongues. (1 Cor. 12) The Spiritual gift of tongues is used in the church setting and requires the Spiritual gift of interpretation. This is entirely different than the ability to speak in tongues that is in fact a personal prayer language.

Paul makes the distinction between diversities of tongues. He states the person who speaks in an unknown tongue speaks to God. (1 Cor. 14) This is the prayer language of the reborn spirit to God's Spirit after receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Remember Paul states he wished all spoke in tongues as often as he did. 1 Cor 14:18

I can attest to what is found in scripture. God used me one time to speak in tongues in a church setting. The initiation of this was totally different than when I speak in tongues in my private prayer language.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#179
Nov 27, 2018
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#179
Aidan1 said:
This is false teaching. F.e. if this would be true. Then the first person with speaking in tongues in australia would be a woman in 1909. Ergo no believer is to found in australia before 1909.
As I said, according your claime.
Before Topeka, you cant find this practise nor in the Holyness movement, nor in any denomination, but in cults like mormons ore new apostolic church.
Nor Wesley nor any of the other from God used preachers taught this.
Btw, who is behind the tongue speakers in the cults i mentioned? Is it the Holy Spirit?
Click to expand...
God's word is the ultimate authority not one's lack of experience. We will all be judged by God's word.

Clearly scripture speaks to what occurs when a person receives the Holy Ghost. This was first addressed by the Apostle Peter immediately after the 120 experienced the infilling of the Holy Ghost sent from Heaven on the Day of Pentecost:
"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:4

"This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 2:32-33
 
PaulChristensen

PaulChristensen

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#180
Mar 17, 2021
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#180
Evmur said:
You can't find a promise? do you say that for sin? He bare our sins, He bare our diseases.

What I say is this

We know that normally in the matter of sin there is a battle to be had in getting the mastery over it, we know we dwell in sinful flesh, yet we [if we are taught well] expect to get to the place where sin no more has dominion over us, we want that victory which Jesus won for us on the cross.

The argument for disease is exactly the same. We live in weak bodies. There is a battle to be had, as with sin the battle is for faith, the battle to BELIEVE the good news.

But folk don't preach it the same, your attitude is by far and away the predominant one. We absolutely won't tolerate sin, we are 100 % persistent that it is defeated and must go. But with healing we say "ah well if God wills"

We say with sin He has done it, with sickness we say we hope He will do it.

Evangelicals ought to have been engaged in this matter decades ago, a hundred years ago but they were more interested in throwing dirt on the Pentecostals.

Pentecostals love Evangelicals more than Evangelicals love Pentecostal.

See it's good to debate these things.
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It is interesting to note that I don't know of a single sick person who has not done everything he or she could to try and get well. I guess that "if it be thy will" is okay for someone praying for a sick person, but for the sick person it might very well be, "Tt better be thy will because I hate being sick!" Unless, of course, the sick person is trading on all the sympathy from others feeding his self-pity...
 
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